> but obviously if you are going to breed then you need as near as doggie possible to this and match the sire/dam to complement the slight imperfections to improve on the breed;
>

Wendy,
Surely these dogs would just be names or, at best, photographs to you, if you don't actually see these dogs. A trip to a few shows or breeder's kennels may let you actually see some of these so-called complimentary mates.
Red ink to you, real dogs with merits and faults to me.

Nicola,
The mentor, on whom you shall be leaning on so heavily, may just be the right person to breed these puppies and let you have one when you want addition to your family pets.IMHO

> Just read it Charlie72
>
> You know what confuses me though is why I could be considered a BYB if it had been my intention to put my bitches through all the necessary tests to see if they are even healthy enough to breed from and not carrying some evil trait that could be passed on, mind you the breeder of my pups should also have done the same so in theory there should not be any evils, but better safe than sorry. Why would I be considered a BYB if I had intended for my 2 breeders to give their opinions on the quality of my bitches are they even standard good enough. Why would I be a BYB if I had intended that any puppies that left me would leave with full packs, first jabs, chipped and info from me and my breeders plus bring back contracts. Would I be a BYB if I only bred once and kept most if not all of the pups myself; (Shelties don't have litters the size of Goldies)

Because of the reason why you are breeding.It's not to better what you have for the good of the breed or to carry on your valuable lines it's for your own purposes.You should at the very least know exactly what health tests need to be done and made sure you bought a bitch from a breeder that did all the tests on the parents.I don't want to breed my dog but even as just a pet buyer I made sure I knew what tests his parents would need and bought from a breeder that did those tests.If I'd wanted to breed I would have bought a show potential pup and shown him.
If you realy want to be a responsible breeder why not go about it the right way and show your dogs? You will need more than the opinion of two breeders(you haven't said if they health test or show/judge your breed) on their quality.Having "just one litter" breeders are the biggest contributors to the numbers,far more than the puppy farmers.So far in this thread alone you've covered at least 3 of these..

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm

This could also lead to the question 'why do people show'?  (its definetely not for the dog)

Wendy,
I could ask why do people have dogs? Is it for the dog?
It could be seen as quite a selfish thing especially if they go out to work or spend weekends out shopping/golfing etc.
I have dogs for many reasons but mostly fascination and love :)
I am fascinated by their ways, their loyalty, their naughtiness, the way they have adapted to become our pets and I love them as part of my family.
I want to start showing so that I can have an interest that includes the whole family! and also meet people who feel the same.
I have children and could spend my weekends swimming/cinema/shopping etc but then my K9 family members could not join us, so showing is a perfect way to get us all out together.
The other activities can be fitted in around the showing ;)
IMO Having a "hobby" that includes my dogs has to be better than leaving them at home alone!
Paula

  

It's educating the public isn't it. I've often told the story on various forums about how, when we decided we wanted a puppy, I just said vaguely at work one day 'I want a puppy, how do I find one?' and someone said phone the KC and get a puppy pack. If they'd said 'my next door neighbour has some' I'd have done that instead. But the KC said to get a book on the breeds we were interested in too, so we did, and that told me what questions to ask and what to look for in a good breeder.

Nicola if you are wanting to breed, I really would recommend trying some open shows - your bitches don't have to be champion quality to be fine to breed from. My girl will never get to Crufts, but she does well at open level, has a great temperament and (fingers crossed for next week) has passed her health tests recommended by the breed club, so as far as I can see that makes her fine to breed from. I just have to pick a stud dog who has strengths where she has faults. You won't know where your girls have faults unless you go to a fair few shows and get opinions from the judges. :-)

Don't want too sound daft here but if all it takes is going to a few open show's, good health test's and looking for a stud that may complements your bitch .. ie can maybe rectify the bitches faults , how come it seems a big deal to breed your dog ? Most  breeders will say they cannot say they can produce a full litter of show quality pup's  and if they think they have one they will keep it .So what are the breeders that keep producing litters but don't get what they wanted (ie their perfect dog )Are all the pup's rubbish because they are not deemed show quality and should be off the breeding market so to speak ... There must be hundreds of dogs out there that could win shows but the owners chose not to show just out of choice , Is this not why all the inbreeding has ocurred , show sticking to show and not bringing in an outcross enough ....

Hi Nicola, sorry it was not my intention to make you upset yesterday.  I was trying to support you against the barrage of what i felt was 'almost bullying' threads.

So many people have such strong opinions, knowledge etc on breeding but i don't think it is right to tell someone they must not breed (but it is o.k. for them to!!)

Teri I have had my dog evaluated by a show judge and mentor.  They have also chosen the stud dog that I used.  All have had the relevant health tests for this breed.  So as far as i'm concerned everything possible has been done to produce healthy, well socialised puppies.  This is just my 2nd time with breeding and all my puppies go as family pets with KC endorsements/sales contract to protect them as much as possible from ever ending up in the 'wrong hands'.  I also keep in contact with all the families and plan re-unions.  2 of the puppies from my current 8wk old litter are of the highest standard required for showing.  Everyone that has seen mum & pups have all commented on how well they are all looked after and how healthy they look.

Whilst I respect all the knowledge that you obviously have, I still believe that it doesn't have to be mandatory to show dogs in order to produce a healthy litter of puppies.

I also think that some of your comments are actually quite rude especially 'what on earth gives you the impression that it is right to suggest that the OP has a re-think'.  I could say the same sort of comments to you... at the end of the day nobody 'rules the world'

> Hi Nicola, sorry it was not my intention to make you upset yesterday. I was trying to support you against the barrage of what i felt was 'almost bullying' threads.

The 'barrage' of 'bullying' appears to me to amount to all of two posters, one being myself, who were non-supportive of breeding for reasons other than improvement of a breed.  You chose two rather emotive words - unless intended to cause ill-feeling I can't really understand why you did that

> So many people have such strong opinions, knowledge etc on breeding but i don't think it is right to tell someone they must not breed (but it is o.k. for them to!!)

I have not, at any point 'told' Nicola not to breed :)  I gave and, mainly due to your personal crusade of garning support for your own habits, reiterated what IMO are the responsible and educated reasons for embarking on breeding. 

> I have had my dog evaluated by a show judge and mentor

I covered my opinion of that minimal assessment earlier :)

> This is just my 2nd time with breeding and all my puppies go as family pets

So you do breed specifically for the lucrative pet market

> I also think that some of your comments are actually quite rude

If the truth hurts, the cap usually fits.

To shusky1

> Don't want too sound daft here but if all it takes is going to a few open show's, good health test's and looking for a stud that may complements your bitch .. ie can maybe rectify the bitches faults , how come it seems a big deal to breed your dog ?

IMO it takes much more than that - it takes years of competing, watching, evaluating championship stock - a few open shows most likely have the same few dogs time and again and a judge very often with little or no experience of a breed.  The opinions at open shows are varied, although some breeds where entries are better supported may occasionally have the benefit of breed judges (in training) so have a random opportunity to get a more valued opinion.  Even then, limited to only those dogs living locally which may or may not have qualities suitable for the ring never mind the whelping box.

Hi Wendy
Please don't apologise, you did not upset me as such. I have found the whole discussion on my breeding/not breeding quite intense, which I think is probably as it should be.
I have never really thought of myself as a 'bad' person with regards to my dogs and dogs in general but some of the posts did make think that perhaps I was not as good an owner as perhaps I should be.
I think what may have upset me a tadge was the fact that you seemed to have a little more understanding of what I was trying to say, a silly old bird like me should get a grip and not be so emotional, maybe it's my hormones (oh god lets not get on to hormones or we'll get back to spay or not spay).
I still find the idea of breeding interesting but it is certainly not something that I would leap into. 
I understand why those that show feel that if I want to breed I should consider showing, but to be honest it has never appealed to me, and to the person that commented that it is great hobby and one in which you can involve all family members including the four legged ones I would say so is Hiking, Back Packing and Caravanning and all five of my dogs love these activities, I do not like crowds and large halls and am happier in open countryside and I believe my dogs are too, plus it's good for my 50 year old arse ;).
The thing that I find intriguing about showing is how do you fund it?  I would imagine that it is extremely expensive travelling the country to attend the shows and even more so now with fuel costs as they are.
If you breed to better the breed what do you do with the ones that don't make the grade for the greater shows but are good enough for the lesser shows? Do you sell them?  I assume you do. If you do I assume this helps to cover some of the cost of the whole operation, if this is the case how does this make a show breeder differ from a non-show breeder? Or do you have to be extremely financially fortunate?
If you do sell them to people like me and they are deemed good enough for lesser shows then it follows that they must be good enough to breed with. I know that the dogs I bought have come from breeders that show and do all of the required screening, I checked before I bought.
As I see it and maybe my lack of knowledge shows here, I thought that the non-show breeders where still out to breed the best they can because of their love and concern for their chosen breed. I would like to think this the case.
All in all the whole thing is very interesting and could probably be discussed until the cows come home.

I pressed post too soon shusky1 :)

To cover some of your other points,

> Most breeders will say they cannot say they can produce a full litter of show quality pup

Not in my breed - the top breeders know their own stock, pedigrees, ancestors so well and those of others (which they will have thoroughly researched anyway) so much less of a gamble on what can be expected and I doubt that any of them ever bred a litter in the hope that one star emerged.  I can think of several breeders and many litters where multiple champions and CC winners have resulted from carefully selected matings :)

That said, some breeds will be affected by markings, Dalmatians spring immediately to mind but so too could many other breeds, this then could render an otherwise excellent prospect or more too plain or possibly mis-marked in some way for the ring. 

As Mother Nature plays a significant role in breeding, regardless of the expertise of the breeders there can never be guarantees but there can always be 'safer bets' :)

> There must be hundreds of dogs out there that could win shows but the owners chose not to show just out of choice

Very true, and their breeders will know exactly where they are and whether or not they could in some way contribute to the breed should their owners be willing :)  Not all stud dogs for eg are the top winning dogs - often a less shown or to the ringside unknown litter mate has more to offer a breeding line but of course not all owners would want to have their dog used. 

>Is this not why all the inbreeding has ocurred , show sticking to show and not bringing in an outcross enough ....

Absolutely not - generations of pet bred stock produces simply more generations of pet quality stock for the simple that the finer points of the breed which are so essential to type are dilluted or distorted to such an extent that while these much loved and cute pets are very naturally and rightly beautiful to their owners, they generally have little or no resemblance to the breed which they supposedly represent. 

There will always be exceptions of course but the way to obtain and retain type (which covers looks, conformation, character) is, having established good health in each line, to put the best to the best and in doing so aim for better :)

regards, Teri

>If you breed to better the breed what do you do with the ones that don't make the grade for the greater shows but are good enough for the lesser shows? Do you sell them?

No, they stay (at least mine do, just as they do when they get old) - they just don't get bred from.

>As I see it and maybe my lack of knowledge shows here, I thought that the non-show breeders where still out to breed the best they can because of their love and concern for their chosen breed. I would like to think this the case.

Nicola, I think it's great that this is all being discussed, and there are good points that can be taken from both angles. As far as the comment above goes, I think we must surely all accept that in ALL walks of life there are people who do things properly, and people who don't. The same applies to both 'pet' and 'show' breeders, 'tis just human nature after all. Some do the very best they can, and lose money hand over fist but are satisfied that they are doing the best they can. Others make money (make no mistake, it is possible) and have no issues with their conscience.

Dog showing and breeding is a very different concern these days to what it was many years ago, when major kennels were the normal and dogs were considered to be 'stock'. I suspect the vast majority of show people these days are very much small concerns, where dogs are pets first and foremost anyway - this certainly applies to most I know in my breed, at any rate, although I appreciate that this may differ in different breeds.

>The thing that I find intriguing about showing is how do you fund it?

Certainly not by breeding, in my case at least! It's a hobby, and like many hobbies it costs me (lots of) money as I do show relatively extensively. Hey ho, my choice. However, you don't have to travel the country and spend a fortune. You could have a dabble in some local shows, and you never know, you might even like it even if most weekends are still kept for outdoor pursuits. Not all shows are in packed halls. Even if you don't take a dog, why not go along to a local breed club show and have a look? Keep an open mind.

Anyway, not sure what I was trying to achieve with that post really, but hopefully some other bits to think about.

M.

>> There must be hundreds of dogs out there that could win shows but the owners chose not to show just out of choice
>Very true, and their breeders will know exactly where they are and whether or not they could in some way contribute to the breed should their owners be willing

My last litter was sired by just such a dog. He was shown twice; once at a breed club champ show where he took Best Puppy, then at Crufts where he came Reserve in his class. :) But his owners weren't really interested in showing. His breeder, however, remembered him when I was looking for a stud of those lines ...

I have read this thread with interest.

I have to admit, I probably didn't start out with the right idea at all. I didn't especially want a dog, it was my husband who did and he wanted the breed we have. I didn't even like them and thought they were ugly. (I can't believe I ever thought that now!) I agreed to be the main carer for a dog, as hsi work commitments meant he couldn't be, and set out with my research into the breed. I spoke to a lot of breeders before arranging to meet one, and considering how numerically popular the breed is, good breeders are suprisingly hard to find! We wanted a pet that could possibly work, as my husband shoots. The breeder we got our girl from no longer shows and has actually now retired from breeding, but she has continued to work her dogs, all of which suited us well. I can remember my first, 2 hour, phone call to her and I can actually remember saying when asked if we wanted a dog or a bitch that we wanted a bitch as we'd like the possibility of having puppies in future, partly as it would be nice for the children! She politely explained about the endorsements on any puppies papers and that we'd need to meet her criteria prior to them being lifted in the future.

Anyway, we got our girl and I have to say, she absolutely stole my heart! How on earth I could have actually disliked the breed is now beyond me. It has become everything to me and I cannot imagine not having a house full of Goldens.

We probably didn't know enough when we bred our first litter, but I was lucky that I had had good advice and my girl's breeder and helped me a lot, as did the stud dog owner. they still do. We were lucky to have worked our girl and had her assessed by a breed specialist judge prior to breeding from her, but I have still never got round to showing her properly, although I am now considering it, although I think she may have a real talent for obedience, so might take that route with her. I do have one of her puppies here and her firsts how is next month. We have also bought in a pup from a very good breeder who we have just started showing and I have to admit, I do hope she will turn out good enough to breed from, but only time will tell and that is a very long way off yet. It is only a consideration in the back of my mind for now.

Sorry, as this is long winded. I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone has to start somewhere and it is whether you go down the right route or the wrong one that matters. I probably didn't get out to the best start, but hopefully I have learnt by any mistakes I made and have not done and will not do anything to harm my gorgeous breed. I still have a lot to learn though, obviously.

If you're interestd in breeding, why not start showing your puppies and see how they do in the ring? It is terrifying to start with, but is so much fun and you do get to meet so many lovely people and learn so much more about the breed. I look forward to ringcraft every week. I get to chat to people and meet people and my dogs get to meet lots of other dogs and enjoy it. You can always go along to a few ringcraft sessions and see how you get on. My friend took her puppy just for socialisation, but she has had such nice comments, she is going to try showing her.

Nicola,

> I have never really thought of myself as a 'bad' person with regards to my dogs and dogs in general but some of the posts did make think that perhaps I was not as good an owner as perhaps I should be

I can categorically state that at no time has it been my intent to imply you are a 'bad' person or in any way shape or form a 'bad owner' :)  If you were either of these you'd most probably have joined the forum (if at all) when in a crisis over your bitch's traumas through whelping, emergency section, fading puppies etc. because you'd have just carried on regardless with a notion without giving much thought and research into it and without having a personal mentor and experienced breeder guiding you through :)

> The thing that I find intriguing about showing is how do you fund it? I would imagine that it is extremely expensive travelling the country to attend the shows and even more so now with fuel costs as they are

It is very expensive, particularly for those of us living at the extreme ends of the UK and so have considerably more need to travel and use hotels but, it's a hobby and family activity as much as it is a passion for the breed we love and so like any other hobby or family holiday we save and make sacrficices to fund it :)

> If you breed to better the breed what do you do with the ones that don't make the grade for the greater shows but are good enough for the lesser shows? Do you sell them?

Good breeders breed good, healthy, well socialised and well adjusted pups which make long lived, loyal, loving family companions.  That is why IMO it is vital that the message gets across to the GP that responsible breeders are the ONLY ones which should be sourced for a family pet :)  Not all pups in a litter will be of suitable quality for the show ring or for breeding from and yes these will certainly go as pets.  The better ones, if the breeder has a good reputation within their own breed, will go to other show homes or 'on terms' where the breeder can access them at a later date to show or breed from to continue and safeguard their lines.

Most 'show people' - exhibitors, breeders, judges, officials et al - have all of their dogs as family pets first and foremost :)  We live with them and interact with them 365 days a year whereas we show them maybe 10 or 20 times a year at champ level (the most expensive of the shows) and some occasionally fit in open shows local to them to socialise, train and also showcase their dogs to folks considering entering the show world.

Generally pups which are apparently good enough for the showring are not offered first to pet only homes - the 'pick' of the pups (say 1st and 2nd pick of each dog and bitch) will with many breeders be booked well in advance of a mating and for some breeders more reserved than 1st/2nd pick and perhaps the prospective owners waiting a couple of years.

HTH, regards Teri

If you breed to better the breed what do you do with the ones that don't make the grade for the greater shows but are good enough for the lesser shows? Do you sell them?  I assume you do. If you do I assume this helps to cover some of the cost of the whole operation, if this is the case how does this make a show breeder differ from a non-show breeder? Or do you have to be extremely financially fortunate?

The same way you afford hiking, caravaning and back packing.   I presume that you have to put fuel in your car too to be able to get to the desired location for these activities, especially pulling a caravan.  It is what we do, it is what we spend our personal income on - and by that I do not mean "puppy income", I mean regular tax paid income.  How much do you save up to go on holiday with your family a year?  I think it would be fair to say that a significant chunk of "show folks'" own money is spent on showing and that is our choice, this may differ from pet owners, I don't know, but at least it goes towards the improvement of the dogs we show. 

> if this is the case how does this make a show breeder differ from a non-show breeder? Or do you have to be extremely financially fortunate?
>

The main difference, as I said earlier is that I will have seen, touched, judged and formed a real opinion of the dogs that go to make up my future puppies pedigree. You will have just read the names on a piece of paper or perhaps seen a flattering photograph..

And yes I am fortunate to be able to breed and show dogs without ever once having to consider that my dogs need/will make me any money.

If you and Wendy are so keen on endorsing your future pups registration certificates, how are you going to react when a puppy purchaser rings you up when they are only babies and starts talking 'lifting restrictions' so that they can get on with breeding? Are you going to be their 'mentor'?
Established and experienced breeders are often accused of creating a 'closed shop'... perhaps you can see why?

That's a nice post jackson :)
 
I wish you well with your newest addition and your nerves too LOL.  I still get nervous with my own but it's an absolute breeze handling for someone else :-D

regards, Teri

> If you and Wendy are so keen on endorsing your future pups registration certificates, how are you going to react when a puppy purchaser rings you up when they are only babies and starts talking 'lifting restrictions' so that they can get on with breeding? Are you going to be their 'mentor'?

Excellent points!

I for one will not be breeding but that does not mean that I do not find it interesting or indeed should not have an opinion about it.

Nicola - since that came into my reply box, was it intended for me?  And if so, where exactly did you get the idea that I disapproved of either your interest or right of opinion on this subject and the wider implications

Nicola, all breeds need new custodians to keep going.

If someone plans to take lifelong responsibility for the pups they breed (next 15 years from last litter bred) and aims to help keep the breed as it needs to be, then all power to your elbow. 

It is a big responsibility as in effect the breeders of today are for good or ill the keepers of the breed for future generations.

What a lot of people with experience on the forum are saying is that people rarely look at the long term and bigger picture when they think about breeding from their bitch/dog.

> If someone plans to take lifelong responsibility for the pups they breed (next 15 years from last litter bred) and aims to help keep the breed as it needs to be, then all power to your elbow

Can you clarify that Brainless  

Even with pet quality breeding stock aimed at the pet only market you would see that as being how to keep breeds going?  (in general terms, not specific to Nicola's bitches as I obviously don't know if they are of good type or would benefit the gene pool)

Teri
My apologies, no it was not intended for you but for toolz, it just reinforces what I said to you some posts back that computers, mobile phones amd me do not go well together.

Sorry if I offended you, I have found all of your posts to be useful and informative and not in any way personal :)

Brainless

I totally agree which is why right at the very begining of all of this :

I just wanted to know more.

tooolz is more than able to respond herself but FWIW I'd say she made very valid points and ones which hadn't been covered so far and are worth adding to a list of what needs to be considered. 

It's all become very lengthy and grown a few arms and legs on this thread hasn't it LOL.  That's the way of some threads which bring on a passionate response.  Sometimes things appear to get personal or feelings become hurt but it's rare for there to be an intent to upset anyone ;)

Chin up! Teri

Thank you for replying Nicola,

You are of course at liberty to have an opinion on this or any other subject on this forum.

It may seem as though your opinion has not been heeded but in fact it comes with the territory, many posters have already decided upon a course of action before they write on this board. Usually they have formed an idea and are looking for others to endorse it.
You will, no doubt speak with many others who will give you advice contrary to the one given here and may find them more to your likeing but when things go wrong, and in dog breeding they commonly do, you may have reason to reflect on what was said here.

I would just ask you to think about the many,many,many years of experience pooled in these replies and compare them to friends, family and other forums where " OOOOh Puppies" will be their considered opinion.

Ultimately you will breed dogs and I do hope that at least some of these points, may cause you to stop and think and make you a more informed breeder.

> I still get nervous with my own but it's an absolute breeze handling for someone else

I am the polar opposite. :-D Handling my own no problem - other peoples and I start producing litters of kittens. :-D

Comments from Toolz - If you and Wendy are so keen on endorsing your future pups registration certificates, how are you going to react when a puppy purchaser rings you up when they are only babies and starts talking 'lifting restrictions' so that they can get on with breeding? Are you going to be their 'mentor'?
Established and experienced breeders are often accused of creating a 'closed shop'... perhaps you can see why?

I don't think that Nicola mentioned the above it was me. 

In response to your comment Toolz.  I have explained to all new owners that the puppies are not to be bred from (i waited until my girl was just over 2 years of age before her 1st litter and would not even consider breeding before this age!!).  The only circumstances in which I would consider lifting the KC endorsement would be if the particular owner had kept in very close contact, had all the relevant health tests carried out, the dog is over 2 years old and i had visited their home in the recent weeks and seen the dog myself. 

As for the 'closed shop' comment, personally i would not like to step into that category.  No one has the right to try to exclude (except for good reasons!) and think they are better than me! 

It seems that if you are an experienced breeder you 'do it better' somehow, but i don't think that it the case at all!!

> Whilst I respect all the knowledge that you obviously have, I still believe that it doesn't have to be mandatory to show dogs in order to produce a healthy litter of puppies.
>

No it doesn't, but just healthy isn't what it should be about then there is an over population of dogs.

Teri, what I mean is that breeding should be something that is part of an ongoing interest in advancing your chosen breed, and your efforts are part of the bigger picture.  Your aware of the direction the breed needs to go, how to keep enough diversity planning breeding in such a way so as not to narrow the gene pool etc.

It's not simply oh I would like to have a litter.

I don't see how someone who doesn't want to show or work, educate themselves about the breed, it's health etc is showing a sufficient in depth interest to be a breeder worthy of their breed.

It seems that if you are an experienced breeder you 'do it better' somehow, but i don't think that it the case at all!!

Why? Obviously nobody can be experienced in BREEDING with their first litter, but they NEED to be very experienced with their BREED, and with dogs in general. Otherwise what happens when puppy buyers start asking questions? They will want to know the best way to train the breed, how to avoid this and that problem (also how to SOLVE this and that problem), what age do they start to do this or that (i.e. when do ears go up for a breed like that, when do the bitches have their first season, when do the dogs cock their legs, when do they finish growing, when do the have their worst teenage period, etc etc). How do you help puppy buyers if you don't have that type of experience? It all varies from breed to breed.

I had had dogs for 20 years when I got my now main breed, but without getting a LOT of help from other people in the breed I'd never know what I do today -and I am still learning every day and expect to do so for many years to come yet. I ask for advice all the time from those that have been in the breed longer than me. I could never have gone ahead on my own and bred. For my first couple of litters I had several more experienced breeders (most were also judges) come and view them, help me work out which was most suitable for what, even helped me sort the good buyers from the bad.

And I never got this breed with the intention of breeding, or even showing. I wanted a pet to train. But I got talked into showing by other people in the breed, my husband and I found we loved going to shows, so did the dog, and she did pretty well, too. So the step to breeding was a gradual one (over years), and in the what I consider most normal way for most responsible breeders -it grew out of an interest in the breed, showing it, it wasn't because we had a nice pet. I'd had nice pets for decades without breeding from them ever.

I have bought a dog from a pet breeder. (Different breed to the one referred to above.) She knew less than me about dogs, was no help at all when it came to advice of any sort, and although at that time all I wanted (and got) was a wonderful pet, there was still most DEFINITELY advice I could have done with, breed specific advice as it was my FIRST dog of that breed -advice I was lucky enough to be able to get from OTHER breeders, show breeders with experience -who freely and happily gave it to me when the actual breeder of my dog had failed. Because I was already involved in showing etc I realised I had to ask other show breeders for advice when the breeder of my dog proved to be no use. She didn't have the experience.  One of my dog's littermates was returned to the breeder at just ten weeks -that's how much use she was at picking the right buyers, giving advice and helping out.......the pup was returned because the new owners could not cope! A toy breed!

> I don't see how someone who doesn't want to show or work, educate themselves about the breed, it's health etc is showing a sufficient in depth interest to be a breeder worthy of their breed

Nor do I Barbara - that's why your earlier post had me a bit confused.  I agree everyone has to start somewhere but some views seem to be that the starting point is just having a bitch, nothing more.

How pet bred litters from pet quality stock can find their way to benefitting the gene pool of a breed is a mystery to me - IMO they merely serve to increase numbers registered (often not even that) and the availability of further still poor examples for the GP to easily get hold of and embark on even more unnecessary breeding.

I wish there was an easy answer but alas it all comes back to education, education and more education.  And how easily that work can be undone by even one BYB expending their energies on decrying those who are trying to help simply to justify their own indiscriminate production of pups ..... :(

simply to justify their own indiscriminate production of pups

It's the 'modern' way of thinking Teri - "Why shouldn't I if I want to?" and "Why shouldn't I have what everyone else has?" :(  To me, a breeder should learn BEFORE they breed, not learn from their mistakes and then pass those mistakes on to unsuspecting families!

But it's a bit like the way some folk produce children and expect the rest of the population to pay and be responsible for them. :(  I don't understand that either.......

I'd like to see the Kennel Club insist on a breeders involvement in a dog activity, be it showing, obedience, agility or the field for, say, 2 years before they would register any puppies, but you'd then still get people producing pet puppies and telling prospective owners that they don't need a registered puppy 'just for a pet'! :(

To me, being 'just a pet' is the most important job that any dog can do and I don't see why nice families shouldn't have a pet that has been carefully bred and reared from health tested ancestors AND be a good representative of the breed. :)

> I for one will not be breeding but that does not mean that I do not find it interesting or indeed should not have an opinion about it.

I find it all very interesting as well but certainly don't feel remotely qualified to have a litter. I have no intention of breeding but have started showing over the last year. If you are interested in what goes into breeding going to show can be a lot of fun - even without your dog. I went to a champ show to assist my girl's breeder so didn't have any dogs. Instead I got to sit ringside and listen to the comments from some very experienced people in the breed. It was fascinating to listen to their critique of each dog's conformation and movement. You hear the history of dogs and various lines. There's a lot of knowledge there. If you are really keen on the subject would your dogs' breeder let you come along with them to shows, talk about how they pick mates for their dogs over a cuppa and the like. You could learn all about what goes into breeding without having the risk and responsibility of breeding a litter yourself. I haven't attended a whelping but have done some puppysitting. It's like having grandchildren. You get all the fun without the responsibility. :)

There's nowt wrong with being interested - I am too. I'm just being interested, and learning, without actually breeding a litter myself.

I'd like to see the Kennel Club insist on a breeders involvement in a dog activity, be it showing, obedience, agility or the field for, say, 2 years before they would register any puppies, but you'd then still get people producing pet puppies and telling prospective owners that they don't need a registered puppy 'just for a pet'! :-(

The Swedish KC charges twice as much to register pups from parents that haven't got any sort of show or working qualifications, so it makes any profit for those just breeding pets go down a fair bit as the costs aren't cheap. I think hitting people in their pockets can be quite effective. The pet breeders would make less money, so may feel they have to charge more -and then the responsible breeders would charge less than them.

Maybe what we need is compulsory KC registration........... But then again so many people would complain at that. (Let's face it, it is much what is being suggested now with the ABS.) Still think compulsory health testing (with GOOD results) should be a requirement for KC registration, then the reg would mean something to everyone including pet buyers.

> To me, being 'just a pet' is the most important job that any dog can do and I don't see why nice families shouldn't have a pet that has been carefully bred and reared from health tested ancestors AND be a good representative of the breed. :-)

I have a great article that reiterates that exact sentiment..

http://www.boxerunderground.com/apr_bu_99/justapet.htm

It's certainly what I looked for as a puppy buyer :)

> I have explained to all new owners that the puppies are not to be bred from (i waited until my girl was just over 2 years of age before her 1st litter and would not even consider breeding before this age!!).  The only circumstances in which I would consider lifting the KC endorsement would be if the particular owner had kept in very close contact, had all the relevant health tests carried out, the dog is over 2 years old and i had visited their home in the recent weeks and seen the dog myself;
>

And each of them fancies having a go at breeding a litter of pets.... and so it goes on. Before long your line will have produced a sub-species with no checks or balances. Each owner will be ( even subtley ) given the impression that anyone can and should produce 'good pets'. Before long the very traits which the dog was bred will slip away for no one is assessing them but you.

This can be seen very easily with Jack Russells (not PJRs) and SBTs....my husband often askes me what a certain dog's breed is and I commonly say Miscellaneous Pit or Misc.Russell.

Surely people should be buying a pet dog from you as a family companion...not an investment.

It seems that if you are an experienced breeder you 'do it better' somehow, but i don't think that it the case at all!!

No, I dont suppose you do at the moment but I suspect you will one day.

Before long the very traits which the dog was bred will slip away for no one is assessing them but you.

You only have to look at a popular breed like Westies.  Most are not bred from show stock and bear no resemblance to a real Westie other than they are white and have 4 legs, a head and a tail!  They have big, ugly heads, soft coats, pink, sensitive skin, fluffy coats and Queen Anne legs, but their owners think that they've bought a Westie with a pedigree and so that MUST be what a Westie should look like! :(

> other than they are white

The pet bred ones I see are rarely white either... they are a sort of off white. The best effort was actually a sort of biscuit colour - colour wise more like a colour you would find in a Cairn - but it wasn't a Cairn.

Hooray for common sense.........!

Karen :)

Toolz  if you actually read my last post that is exactly who i sell my puppies to - family pets!!  and not for breeding.

The arrogance along with the attitude of some of your posts is unbelievable!!

I am going to leave this subject alone, with the knowledge that the puppies i have raised are living a wonderful, healthy life in loving, caring homes.

Teri

Arms and legs!!!  It's got muscles and boots too.!!  Seriously though it has been a useful exercise, I will not be breeding as I will not put my two girls in any position of danger and it would be dangerous as I do not 'know' enough, I am probably too old now to gain the years of experience that it would need. I still have a massive interest in dogs but perhaps it would be better if I point my energies into a different direction. Perhaps Agility?

> The arrogance along with the attitude of some of your posts is unbelievable!!

Moi....arrogant? :-(

I'm probably just used to being listened to by those who feel that my extensive experience counts for something.

I just hope when some of these lovely pet owners phone you up to get the restrictions lifted for breeding....... you will have the excuse ready to disuade them from producing their own pets?

Wendy

re your comments to tooolz

> The arrogance along with the attitude of some of your posts is unbelievable!!

arrogance,  definition:  haughtiness, insolence, disdain

example:-

>> I am going to leave this subject alone, with the knowledge that the puppies i have raised are living a wonderful, healthy life in loving, caring homes

There is no sign of arrogance in any of toolz responses, whether directly to you or in more general terms.  IMO you should feel privileged rather than outraged that someone with such impeccable credentials and highly respected gave freely of their time and advice to offer valuable insight into such a serious subject, despite knowing how unlikely it was that advice offered would be taken even partially on board by certain types :(  

At least if nothing else this thread and topics branching from it will hopefully have helped educate others to develop a truer understanding and appreciation of the level of committment, research and dedication which custodians of our beautiful breeds put into their development, improvement and protection.

Thankfully the Op has shown remarkable good faith and respect for those who have held differing opinions to her own - so not an entirely lost cause.

Hi Nicola

> Seriously though it has been a useful exercise

Good :) 

And thank you for remaining in good terms and not making personal attacks on anyone.  Lively, heated debate is part and parcel of an internet forum and while sometimes it can appear to get tetchy it's both interesting and thought provoking to everyone, regardless of time served, dogs owned, activies enjoyed or anything else. 

best wishes,
Teri

> There is no sign of arrogance in any of toolz responses, whether directly to you or in more general terms.

Cheers Sis.

Here we are "givin it all away".

:-) :-)

to everyone that has put a post on this thread...........is it all quite on the western front..now?