I've always had bitches in the past, but we now have a little boy pup, and we keep getting conflicting advice as to when the best age to neuter is. I wondered if people had any experience, or examples of what the implications can be for leaving it too late or fixing too early.

My personal preference would be to wait a year and our dog trainer and breeder agrees. However, most dog walkers in the area have a nine month (or even six month) limit unless there is a medical reason. I can understand their preference, as they will feel the brunt of any problem on walks, but frankly that's not my priority. Our vet is an advocate of fixing at six months, and made the mistake of saying in front of my OH that it can be done at any age, so now I'm under pressure to get it done the day he hits six months.

Incidentally, only one of his testicles has descended at 13 weeks, and the vet says that unless it comes soon, he will need to be castrated at six months on any case. Poor chap.

If it makes any difference, he is a wheaten terrier, so a mid-sized breed - about 16-20kg full grown.

I'm sure this topic has been covered hundreds of times, but any help would be appreciated.

Early castration removes the testosterone that is required to ensure the growth plates in the long bones close at the approriate time(the bigger the dog the later this happens I understand)Castration before "canine puberty"is totally inappropriate IMHO

If both his testicles have not descended by the time he has stopped growing then yes the undescended one should be removed along with the descended one if you so desire

Please do not rush into castration no matter what the vets tell you-they always fail to mention the link between testosterone & the closure of the growth plates(PS there is no such link with cats BTW)

> Please do not rush into castration no matter what the vets tell you-they always fail to mention the link between testosterone & the closure of the growth plates

please can you explain more on this, part of our adoption conditions when getting Fudge (mastiff x 11weeks tommorrow) was for us to get him castrated asap, don't no what to do now help !!
The reason they asked for castration is because we have a female spay 5 yr rotti, and they were afraid of dominance?????

I would never recommend the routine castration of males - there is no valid reason for it IME.  I have always had entire males, kept with both neutered and entire bitches, and have never had one scent marking indoors, humping furniture, folks' legs, other dogs, or running off to follow the fragrance of in season bitches elsewhere :)  Over and above which I have never had one suffer from testicular cancer - yet another routine excuse by vets for the snip

Castration IMO should only ever be done on medical grounds - i.e. a condition present, not preventative - or on behavioural grounds and, even then, I'd suggest that Tardak or similar be tried first to establish if castration was likely to be effective.

As explained by MM, hormones play an important role in the physical development of dogs - they also play an important role in the mental development, as evidenced by many dogs/bitches neutered pre-puberty never seeming to grow up and continuing to display puppy attitudes often accompanied by lack of concentration associated with pups too.

Castrated males can suffer from 'feminisation syndrome' whereby to entire males they smell like a bitch on heat and so are pestered mercilessly by those failing to control their own dogs.  They can then become other fearful through bullying or overtly reactive (aggressive) to other dogs in order to prevent them being pestered.

As with any neutering in breeds with longer or double coats it often makes same wooly and less manageable to keep tangle free - a problem for the show ring, yes, but also for the average pet owner less likely to have the tools, expertise and patience required to keep such coats in good condition and ensure the dog's comfort and skin health.

As to the retained testicle, yes, if it doesn't drop it should be removed as these can at a much later stage develop cancer as the testes were never designed to live within body temperature.    This however does not necessitate the removal of the descended testicle at the same time :)  The retained one can be removed as late as 4 years or so - not the panic stricken cries of many but information received from a specialist in the field.   If you leave the descended one alone your dog will not be at risk of (possibly) developing feminsation syndrome or coat changes which could compromise his comfort and wellbeing.

HTH,
regards, Teri

Personally I would wait to get him done. I have no plans to have my Mastiff castrated unless there turns out to be a medical/behavioural reason for it. By behvioural reason I mean the incessent crying & persistent escape attempts whenever they small a bitch on heat, this is what my last dog used to do, castration sorted that out, not all males react like this though. I've had an entire male in the past that stayed entire his whole life, he was never a problem with bitches.

Totally agree with Teri ;)

There are far too may vets who recommend neutering as routine but don't inform the owner of possible side effects.  Neutering is a major operation which should not be considered lightly IMHO ;)

You may wish to read this for further information

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Maybe the dog walkers think because a bitch can be spade at 6 months males can too?

I would do on the advice given here and NOT the vets for spading imho.
I went on the vets advice and spade our bitch at 6 months before a season, now she has peter pan syndrome and cant hold her wee if shes excited, Its not her fault and she will never suffer for it but the vets just see the £££££ and not my dogs welfare when it comes to spading, I mean your vet said 6 months and for a male that is completely wrong from what Ive learnt here

I made a HUGE mistake once of neutering a dog aged just 5 months. It meant he is always being picked on by other dogs, he never gained confidence as he was never allowed to mature sexually, he grew an inch taller than his brothers -and it didn't change anything one bit really, it just took him longer to discover everything. Aged 3 he started to cock his leg, aged 4 he started to mate and tie with in season bitches!

I am of the firm opinion that neutering only changes ONE thing and one thing only -the ability to father puppies. All my male neutered dogs are still as interested in in season bitches and will still mate, tie and pine for them -regardless of the age they were neutered at. (These are a 5 yo Golden Retriever neutered aged 3, a 6 yo crossbreed neutered at 5 months, a 13 yo cavalier neutered at 3, and a 3 yo Papillon neutered at 9 months.)

I bred a dog that sadly only dropped one testicle -he's now 2 ½ and has NOT been neutered yet. One missing testicle doesn't mean it has to be done young. Increased reason for neutering, yes, rush -no.

Maybe the dog walkers think because a bitch can be spade at 6 months males can too?

I would do on the advice given here and NOT the vets for spading imho.

Just a friendly little pointer here Rach -it's SPAY and SPAYED and SPAYING -a spade you shovel with, and the word 'spading' doesn't exist. :)

> Just a friendly little pointer here Rach -it's SPAY and SPAYED and SPAYING -a spade you shovel with, and the word 'spading' doesn't exist. :-)

lol D'oh :)
Thanks Marianne :)

I discovered the link presented above on CD and am so very grateful.  I have also found this one which seems a little more in depth, gives some breed specific information and also deals with societal and behavioural concerns.  It has information on cats too.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10 ... 31.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

And this one I found helpful though it is mostly a summary of the other two.

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..? - the pros and cons of neutering Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

Sometimes the links are not clickable so I put the title in bold below, and gave the author's name in case you have to search.

> please can you explain more on this, part of our adoption conditions when getting Fudge (mastiff x 11weeks tommorrow) was for us to get him castrated asap, don't no what to do now help !!
> The reason they asked for castration is because we have a female spay 5 yr rotti, and they were afraid of dominance?????

Have a look here & this is from a vet not a lay person.This article is also about the sideaffects of early neutering

Maybe the dog walkers think because a bitch can be spade at 6 months males can too?

I would do on the advice given here and NOT the vets for spading imho.
I went on the vets advice and spade our bitch at 6 months before a season, now she has peter pan syndrome and cant hold her wee if shes excited, Its not her fault and she will never suffer for it but the vets just see the £££££ and not my dogs welfare when it comes to spading, I mean your vet said 6 months and for a male that is completely wrong from what Ive learnt here

I don't believe it is usually the money that the vets are thinking of here, they are probably more likely trying to prevent the many accidental or deliberately bred litters that should never have taken place. Last week we had an 11 month old cocker spaniel bitch who had been mated at the first season and luckily didn't get pregnant, but then was allowed to mate again with their other sprocker dog with a retained testicle (luckily not related) and this litter produced pups. Owner couldn't seem to cope with it and was demanding for a who week that the litter was induced, and when it got to the 63rd day the vets eventually consented to an elective caesar despite plenty of warnings to owner that it wasn't necessary and carried lots of risks. All 8 pups died because they weren't ready to be born yet and wouldn't breathe on their own. Owner now can't pay as she was counting on the sale of the pups to pay for the spay and ceasar. Now just think, had she got that bitch spayed at 6 months all of that heartache and cost to her could have been avoided.
My own goldie was the result of stupid owners letting their brother and sister mate - and produce pups twice, because they couldn't keep them apart! If either of them had been done early it would have saved her going through that and as lovely as ellie is she has hereditary cataracts probably as a result of being inbred!

I am undecided as to what age is best, i castrated my male spaniel late, at around 19 months, and i regret it as he was bullied when out and about simply for being an entire dog, and because of this he has now become the bully. I can't help wondering had i done him earlier i could have saved all the hassle as when we first got him from the rescue he was quite confident with other dogs.

The instances you raise lucyandmeg are dreadful - but the result of stupid owners, pure and simple.   IMO responsible breeders wouldn't let these folks have a pup in the first instance :(

Many people who decide to castrate males do so for completely the wrong reasons.  The health benefits (rather, arguments) are IMO debatable at best.  The temperament issues are often equally debatable. 

Males which
run off - training issue
scent mark the house - training issue
hump everything with/out a pulse - training issue
howl/scream/become unmanageable - training issue
become dog to dog aggressive - training (socialisation) issue

and in most instance temperament issues are solvable by a combination of training and owners taking the time to work through the 'kevin stage' - IOW had they put in the extra time to instill basic training with their young males any possible problems would almost certainly settle down when the hormones did anyway so perceived benefits of castration are often nothing more than coincidence.

>i castrated my male spaniel late, at around 19 months, and i regret it as he was bullied when out and about simply for being an entire dog, and because of this he has now become the bully

Classic teenage stage I'm afraid - adults of both genders would be far less tolerant of his juvenile behaviour, hence IME he would not be given the same licence as a puppy and so none of this necessarily because he was an entire dog ......

regards, Teri

Even if his other one doesn't come down it shouldn't be a problem for him to hold off until he's at least a year old. Retained testicles are 20 times more likely than descended ones to develop a tumour - but you would be extremely unlucky for that to be likely to happen before the dog is 3 or 4 years old - and yes I have read that in proper research but haven't got the energy to look for it. :-D Neutering too young affects growth hormones, causes dogs to grow too big which can affect joints etc, and can cause them to retain puppyish behaviour. The hormones produced are needed for both physical and mental maturity - so I would personally suggest waiting until he's at least 12-18 months old. And if both come down consider whether you really want to get him done at all - again personally, I have not had mine castrated, and would only do so for a specific health problem.

Sorry - hadn't read other posts and looks like I've repeated a lot. (Embarrassed :-D ).

But I want to say on this point:

> suggest that Tardak or similar be tried first

Tardak can have a central calming effect on the brain - so just because that calms a dog down doesn't mean neutering will - and conversely I had it used on one of my dogs to see if it would reduce mounting behaviour - it actually made that worse and made him very defence aggressive - apparently it can also have a 'depressing' effect on some dogs - I believe it is a progesterone derivative - clearly boys can't cope with PMT. :-D

There is the Suprelorin now available - which directly blocks testosterone - but I decided I didn't want that with my boy because I didn't like the idea of implant sitting under his skin for 6 months. (Yes he is chipped but on a risk-benefit basis I felt that needed doing. :-) ) Further to that his problems were behavioural (ie. my fault) rather than hormonal - despite how they seemed. ;-) And his testicles stayed put. :-)

> Maybe the dog walkers think because a bitch can be spade at 6 months males can too?

The issues re: growth are I believe the same or similar for bitches - so the mental and physical maturity thing is the same - also the risk of incontinence is I believe greater if the spay is done before the hormones have had time to be present in and around the body. It is possible that the dog walkers simply aren't equipped with the full facts. :-)

Hadn't heard of suprelorin - but I'd feel similarly to yourself about recommending an implant (not a fan of foreign bodies except those of Belgian origins :-D )

Re Tardak, I have known dogs which it has not shown affect or shown a false affect.  I am of the belief that training resolves pretty much everything (and admit that I need to do more myself LOL)

This is the Suprelorin. :-)

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Suprelorin_4_7_mg_implant_for_dogs/-48969.html

Thanks for that :) 

75, a fairly low study, must admit doesn't inspire confidence yet.

>Data demonstrate that treatment with the product will reduce the libido of the dog, but other behavioural changes (e.g. male-associated aggression) have not been investigated

It would seem from that statement that much of what may otherwise have been it's target market is unlikely to have a benefit from the implant as, hopefully, the average owner would not be seeking it as a form of contraception only! (but ya never know )

I think the issue for most dog walkers is that they are a fairly low paid bunch, but if they were out walking a dog who caused a traffic accident because it ran across a road to find a bitch in heat, or caused an injury to a person or other dog as part of an aggressive assault, then they would be held personally liable and could be bankrupted, even losing their house, if for some reason their insurance didn't pay out.

Therefore, even if an uncastrated dog is only a slightly greater risk, that risk is probably too great to take. I can't really blame them for that. There are even a lot of dog training schools near us who will not accept entire males above a certain age.

This article shows that in general there are more negatives than positives in neutering males. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

> 75, a fairly low study, must admit doesn't inspire confidence yet.
>

This was a UK study done for NOAH & not the manufacturer, Peptech have had this on the market in NZ & Australia for much longer than the 5 months it has been available in the UK & various versions have been been used in Zoos, Safari Parks etc animals to prevent over breeding & inbreeding for quite a long time & it has been available since 2004 in Australia

I have researched it extensively & my oldest BC boy was implanted on 22/5/8 & the effects are all good

> Now just think, had she got that bitch spayed at 6 months all of that heartache and cost to her could have been avoided.

But they didn't choose to spay did they and that kind of person won't, the responsible ones who wouldn't have allowed that to happen probably would have, even though they didn't need to.

What we are basically saying as that Vets and others don't trust owners to be responsible.

> as that Vets and others don't trust owners to be responsible.

In fairness, in a number of cases they have justification. ;-) However that does not mean that someone responsible should have to neuter, nor does it give an excuse for neutering at such a young age it will be detrimental to the dog's welfare.

"Classic teenage stage I'm afraid - adults of both genders would be far less tolerant of his juvenile behaviour, hence IME he would not be given the same licence as a puppy and so none of this necessarily because he was an entire dog ......"


I would love to believe that were true, but it wasn't the same at all. He actually walked normally (no bouncing, cos he is a laid back dog) into a dog training class and without making any eye contact with any dog, one just went mad at him. The trainer and owner was shocked as the other dog had never done it before. Male dogs who i know are very friendly would just walk up to him and growl at him without him doing anything. These things haven't happened to my friends with other young dogs. However i have known males to do it to other entire males that i know. One was horribly picked on all the time we presume because he was an entire male as he was a very nice polite dog. I truely believe murphy was ony a victim because he was entire as in so many instances he did absolutely nothing to trigger it. (and i am fairly clued in when it comes to behaviour. )

Anyway i am not trying to say that there is valid reasons for neutering early, i was simply trying to suggest a reason why vets are so keen to suggest it. So many people believe its because of money, but i am simply trying to show there side of it. The thing is there is so many different views, if you were to ask the same question on a rescue forum i would expect you would get a diferent answer. At the end of the day you have to study the evidence, take into account your personal situation and decide how much you trust your vets judgement.

when the best age to neuter is

never!!! how would you like it?

> how would you like it?

We are talking about dogs - they don't have the same mental issues over these matters as humans do. ;-) Though as I said earlier I would personally only neuter a male dog were it medically necessary.

> Anyway i am not trying to say that there is valid reasons for neutering early, i was simply trying to suggest a reason why vets are so keen to suggest it.

Our vets don't push castration, I think some vets may push it as they come across a large number of unplanned litters rather than from a behavioural point of view?

Heres a snipit from our vets fact sheet on neutering :

"......... if you have a dog who is well behaved and you are prepared to
keep him under control, there is no particular reason to neuter."  'behaved' in this context refers to a dog that isn't a pain when he smells a bitch on heat!

What sensible vets.

> please can you explain more on this, part of our adoption conditions when getting Fudge (mastiff x 11weeks tommorrow) was for us to get him castrated asap, don't no what to do now help !!
> The reason they asked for castration is because we have a female spay 5 yr rotti, and they were afraid of dominance?????

it really does make a difference in their development. our rescue mastiff was done just before we got him (approx 6 months) and he never developed to his full mastiff size. for us this was less problematic as we needed to keep him light as he had awful HD but he never looked quite right because of it.

to me i wouldn't get a mastiff type done before about 2-2.5 years as they are usually still growing till then unless i had to for a medical reason or if i was taking a rescue who wouldn't let us have till he was done.

every so slightly confused about the dominance thing?? why would you need to spay him to stop dominance? his or hers?

with all of our mastiff type dogs the bitches have ruled the roost anyway, with no clashes, speyed or entire...

> "......... if you have a dog who is well behaved and you are prepared to
> keep him under control, there is no particular reason to neuter."  'behaved' in this context refers to a dog that isn't a pain when he smells a bitch on heat!

how lovely! vets with sense!

> I don't believe it is usually the money that the vets are thinking of here, they are probably more likely trying to prevent the many accidental or deliberately bred litters that should never have taken place.

a vets job is to provided health care to the animal. while they should absolutely try and stop stupid people breeding litters they should be more concerned with the general health and well being of the dog, which undue spaying can cause problems with. have posters, discuss with patients, have helplines, advertise the injections that stop litters etc... in other words educate people against random litters, don't just assume everyone is incapable of rational thought when taught things and jump to chopping bits that don't need chopped.

> i castrated my male spaniel late, at around 19 months, and i regret it as he was bullied when out and about simply for being an entire dog, and because of this he has now become the bully

thats not late. and as people have said that a teen type age and issues could have developed during that time spayed or not.

i am considering spaying my boy and i do mean considering (have been musing for months now and probably will for a long while more) as i do not intend to breed him (for many reasons) and he is extremely randy. as he spends a lot of time with bitches his determination to mount them at times worries me, especially as i am unconnected with some he meets on walks etc and could not for certain get a bitches owner to have her injected following a slip. i certainly don't intend to let him mate a bitch but as we know accidents can happen. but its a big but... so much more thought to go into it :)

i'd also say Tio is fully grown and but i would like a little more mental maturity before i did anything as he's still slightly puppyish in behaviour.

> it really does make a difference in their development. our rescue mastiff was done just before we got him (approx 6 months) and he never developed to his full mastiff size

Our only problem is as he is a cross we wont know how big he is going to be as a guess they said about lab size, it doesn't bother us as long as he is fit and healthy, Fudge is crossed with a boxer and sbt, i no what a concoction but thats the outcome of irresponsible dog owners and "unplanned pregnancies", but he is one hell of a cute puppy lol even if i am biased!

> bitches have ruled the roost anyway

Lol Bo does do that right now, and i thought that is how it should, being as she is above him in the pecking order, maybe it was just if we got a male rotti, we didn't understand the dominance thing either hence all the question marks lol. Im not one for tinkering if its not needed, if it aint broken don't try to fix it, Bo was spay purely for health reasons, as after every season she got urine infections and became incontinent, but every now and again she becomes incontinent a side affect of being spay. I think after reading everything on here we won't be getting him done unless its a health issue, he has been through alot already.

Thanks for your advice it has helped make our decision easier.
Diane

it really does make a difference in their development. our rescue mastiff was done just before we got him (approx 6 months) and he never developed to his full mastiff size. for us this was less problematic as we needed to keep him light as he had awful HD but he never looked quite right because of it.

That's a bit odd, because the consequences of neutering early is that the dog will grow BIGGER. The growth plates close later, hence they keep growing for longer than the entire dogs.

> a vets job is to provided health care to the animal

They may also be considering the health and welfare of potential animals. ;-)

> i am considering spaying my boy

That would be castrating. :-)

> it really does make a difference in their development. our rescue mastiff was done just before we got him (approx 6 months) and he never developed to his full mastiff size. for us this was less problematic as we needed to keep him light as he had awful HD but he never looked quite right because of it.
>
> That's a bit odd, because the consequences of neutering early is that the dog will grow BIGGER. The growth plates close later, hence they keep growing for longer than the entire dogs.

That's what I was going to say Marianne - neutering too early can affect\delay closure of the growth plates and actually make joint problems WORSE.

> That's a bit odd, because the consequences of neutering early is that the dog will grow BIGGER. The growth plates close later, hence they keep growing for longer than the entire dogs.

The long bones will keep growing but with giant breeds the problem is that their chests don't develop properly and the Bone density is compromised, so they don't fill out (grow) in the way they ought.

I have to say that our vets have never mentioned once to me about neutering. I happened to say the first time i went in that i was interested in showing this pup.

We went to a few puppy socialisation classes at the vets which was great. I do love these classes, even though i went to a few and everything was being repeated i still learnt something new.
They did cover neutering and spaying and the pros and cons for doing it and said it was each and every owners decision at the end of the day.

perhaps it wasn't due to the neutering but he was not as big as most mastiffs and never filled out the same way.

he also did have a certain peter pan quality.

> The long bones will keep growing but with giant breeds the problem is that their chests don't develop properly and the Bone density is compromised, so they don't fill out (grow) in the way they ought.

thank you yes thats what i ment, while he was a similar height he was very slender and lightly boned

> They may also be considering the health and welfare of potential animals

fair enough, and as i said they absolutely should be doing so, but why jump to cutting things out rather than educating people? given the risks involved in surgery why is that better than explaining the dangers and responsibilities of breeding to someone?

I would have thought a Vets responsibility is for the individual animal belonging to their client not the ills of wider society. 

By advocating neutering too early, especially in large and giant breeds they are actually possibly compromising the health of that individual.

i agree that their principal obligation is to the dog in front of them, but i feel they should still try and inform people as well.

I would never neuter any dog unless there was a good medical reason but I know for certain it changes the way they grow, two brothers from the same litter, one I kept to show and the other went to a lovely pet home, the owner decided to have him neutered as she prefers to have dogs that are and I can't say it's changed his personality but it definetely did something to his size, he is very leggy and skinny and a good two inches taller than his litter brother, when he left me the two boys were the same height and length, there is such a marked difference in their size now and dare I say it he now doesn't look as attractive as a Papillon should do.

I think the issue for most dog walkers is that they are a fairly low paid bunch
What inspired that wild assumption? I find that statement quite bizarre.