sorry lucydogs :) thought i was reading it wrong lol x

> Certainly it might be but that's a selfish attitude with no regard to why nature needs hormones and that's not entirely for procreation!  Maybe we should have all of our daughters that we don't want to breed spayed at 10 years old as that would be easier too!  *Rolls eyes!*

Shame that you can have a dig at my comment- but not actually reply to me. :-)

Why would it be a selfish act exactly? your answer- oh yes hormones.
Why compare to neutering a dog to 10 year daughters... they are dogs not humans. Bit OTT " rolly eyes" :-)

If we all wanted them to run free and have their hormones many more bitches could suffer with infections and unwanted pregnancies, false pregnancies, male dogs upsetting them the list can go on and on. For a owner than has a pet then yes it is easier..
To not spay a bitch purely on the fact that there coat will not be so glossy? for the show ring- oh gosh what a reason not to to spay !!  For a start the dogs are healthier and live longer.

> To not spay a bitch purely on the fact that there coat will not be so glossy? for the show ring- oh gosh what a reason not to to spay !!  For a start the dogs are healthier and live longer

Hi magica,

your above statement is incorrect.  Firstly, with many breeds which have double coats and also those with long coats (added together that is a hang of a lot of breeds incidentally!) the removal of hormones causes the undercoat to become woolly, easily matted, considerably less manageable and over and above which it tends to have the effect of an ongoing moult throughout the animals life.  Longer coats become longer still, often in areas which again are more difficult to groom such as behind ears, neck, chest, feathering on legs, underbelly and trousers.  Forget the showring - experienced breeders/exhibitors can often (not always) overcome these issues with special tools, lotions and hours of careful grooming HOWEVER that level of expertise and patience is less likely to be found within a busy household environment not dedicated to competitive canine pursuits.  As a result the general comfort, health of skin and over all wellbeing of the dog can be compromised.

Re the comment that neuters are healthier and live longer - don't believe all that you're conditioned to by the vet profession.  Of the vast majority of dogs that I know through my own, family, friends and of course countless throughout the show scene almost all are entire and I know of very few which have suffered health problems relating to being entire :) (ETA one only, which was a 9 year old bitch spayed due to a pyo)

Hopefully this info will keep things in perspective - it is not designed to change your view but merely to encourage that the facts be looked at in decision making rather than old wives tales or the gospel according the to vets' accountants ;)

regards, Teri

>Forget the showring - experienced breeders/exhibitors can often (not always) overcome these issues with special tools, lotions and hours of careful grooming HOWEVER that level of expertise and patience is less likely to be found within a busy household environment not dedicated to competitive canine pursuits.  As a result the general comfort, health of skin and over all wellbeing of the dog can be compromised.

Isn't that the truth, Teri?! I have a grooming room set up at home, with every tool of the trade necessary to cope with the coat of my own breed, yet I have still had one bitch who was a constant battle to keep thoroughly groomed after she had to be neutered.

The pet owners that I meet outside have a brush and a comb, and are very confused as to why they can't keep their dogs tidy and why the dogs become uncomfortable (or worse, aggressive) when groomed, as they don't have the tools or the knowledge to do it properly. Various I have seen are sent to a professional groomers every couple of months, heaven knows how uncomfortable and smelly they are in between.

I suppose it really isn't too much of an issue with a short coated breed, but I can absolutely assure those who have never lived with it that some Rough Collie (and therefore Sheltie) coats can be very problematic once neutered.

M.

Teri, I like your style:). It does seem to me that this spaying business is quite an emotive subject. I do very much agree with you on one point, I mean when did you last see a vet on a push bike!!!  I think they are bound to push the benefits of spaying it keeps the tills ringing.

On your points about the coats of certain breeds, you could almost be looking at my Border Collie and Sheltie, both spayed. The Collie (10years) moults like a demon, gets matted knicker fur and does not gleam like she used to, I groom regularly but the coat still falls out and the matts keep coming, she also has wee wee problems. The Sheltie (2 and half years) just looks like a fur rug on legs her coat has grown amazingly and she takes a lot of work. I don't show,  my dogs are pets but I do like them to look nice

Please please please suggest tools, gizmo's, lotions and potions that I can use on my Sheltie that will ease the grooming process and stop her getting upset with me, she has a lovely nature but a little snarl can arise when doing the knicker fur and behind the ears. Maybe this another thread though.

Hi Teri,

Thanks for your reply. nice to have a good heated debate and have differences of opinion but to chat in a civilized manner. :-)

I can see what you mean about the coat in long haired breeds- my first bitch I rescued at 2 yrs a tervuren had in the end a massive coat that would take me 3 hours of grooming to thin out- I would end up with a carrier bag full of hair. I have never heard of this being a cause of having a spayed bitch.

I've been unlucky by meeting only unspayed bitches that have been a handful for their owners but that could of been bad breeding and lack of training.

Me being a pet owner not a breeder have very much been told since a child to have our bitches spayed mainly due to health and not for convenience purposes. 

Maybe by stating earlier that the bitch I have now was spayed at 5 months upset people= I may add she was spayed before I got her. 

Hi magica,

sometimes debates get a little too passionate - but I agree, civilized is the better option :)

Re the 'to spay or not to spay' issue, TBH I'm not wholly against the family pet - in bitches, not males! - being spayed if domestic circumstances make the possibility of avoiding unwanted litters less than absolute.

On the proviso that the owners manage her needs until she has fully matured physically and mentally, whether that be after 2 seasons or after 5 or so, and so long as they are armed with all the facts such as the downside of possible urinary incontinence and coat changes as described then they can make an informed decision.  Of course spaying can also have a detrimental effect on temperament as the removal of the female hormones can take a little of the 'softness' with it - but that's a whole different issue LOL (got me thinking pre/during/post menstrual tension with one of mine - where's me scissors :-D )

regards, Teri

> Yes they can put on weight but you just reduce there meal intake easy, my bitch who was spayed at 5 months has a beautiful shining coat yes

How old is theirs bitch now.  One major reason I and many experienced bitch owners are against juvenile neutering is the 'Peter Pan' syndrome that seems to result in our experience with bitches (and I believe dogs too) not growing up mentally and staying puppy like and juvenile all their lives.

This may suit some owners but I would hate in my breed to not have them mature into the confident wise adults they normally become.

My breed mature mentally late, my Myka is nearly two and still has a juvenile mental attitude.  Ours seem to finally be the real mature individual and socially established around four years old.

A relative had a neutered Samoyed who got terribly candy floss coat.

I found that a pair of thinning scissors used in the areas that matted most and on the belly (leaving a skirt round the edge, helped a lot, so that he still looked right but the volume was removed from the coat.

I suggested the same and helped my friend groom her Golden like this once she reached her teens.

Also detangling spray and a Matt splitter (looked like a comb but actually a row of blades) were really useful

> How old is theirs bitch now

My bitch Tinkerbell will be 5 years next March she & her brother Starsky were both done at 5 months by the owner of the mother who kept all three dogs- this was done by the rspca for a little donation.

I think that my girl who has lived with me since she had been spayed in 04 has become mature mentally when she hit 3 years.
Her brother on the other hand who lives with us now is very puppy like he still does not cock his leg.

interesting debate this one although if I can take it a little further, I have decided that I will spay my BC pup but my consideration now is when to do it i.e. at what age.  the vet has said 3 months after her first season, she is 8 months old at the moment has yet to have her first season. Any opinions?

Most probably I will be lambasted for saying this... :-)
It is general to let your bitch have her first heat then have  3 months to recover then have her spayed as your vet said. I am not sure when a BC have there first heat might be at 12 months or 14 but that seems the best option to let her have the one wait then have the operation done. 

Certainly it might be but that's a selfish attitude with no regard to why nature needs hormones and that's not entirely for procreation!  Maybe we should have all of our daughters that we don't want to breed spayed at 10 years old as that would be easier too!  *Rolls eyes!*

Must say this made me feel like Im the worst dog owner in the world all mine are either speyed or neutered, I dont breed or show so coat doesnt bother me, but this sort of attitude makes me as a relatively new member who rarely posts feel even more unwelcome as Im some sort of monster for having my dogs done.

> Certainly it might be but that's a selfish attitude with no regard to why nature needs hormones and that's not entirely for procreation!  Maybe we should have all of our daughters that we don't want to breed spayed at 10 years old as that would be easier too!  *Rolls eyes!*
>

Hi greyhoundsR4lif

That is a lovely comment made to me wasn't it... lol

Do not feel like that! everyone has an opinion and mine is that you are a responsible pet owner :-)

> Certainly it might be but that's a selfish attitude with no regard to why nature needs hormones and that's not entirely for procreation Maybe we should have all of our daughters that we don't want to breed spayed at 10 years old as that would be easier too! *Rolls eyes!*
>

Sorry, we're talking about dogs here, not humans. And strangely, our dogs are not living 'in nature', they are domesticated. Spaying them, at a suitable time, takes away the stresses that seasons can bring - for both dogs and humans. My two are spayed as well - if they weren't they would have to stay at home whilst they were in season, instead of coming to work with me, which they would hate. I certainly don't feel guilty about it, and nor should you. On the contrary, it's showing responsibility.