Some of you may have noticed that I have been asking a lot of questions about breeding and spaying.

I want to know what made you want to breed.

Did you start off as a 'pet owner' that fell in love with a specific breed?

Did you start because you were into showing?

Why do others want to breed?

I don't think, for me, that it was a sudden decision, one I grew into really.  Had always done obedience with dogs, because of the bond, from Toy Poodle to Border Collie.  Then I got a different breed to usual, and really fell for it.  It was an unregistered pet bitch and I found a breeder for advice, visited loads of times for advice, to see the dogs, and to generally chat.  He shows and judges, and was happy to give advice, and eventually I decided to buy a pup.  From there it grew really, as I wanted to breed my own to show, as opposed to showing a dog that someone else had bred.  Fortunately, my mentor has advised me, and still takes a great interest.  Was chatting to him last night about which stud to use on one of my girls next year, that I would like to keep a pup from.  Fortunately, they don't have large litters, I already have a houseful of neutered pets!  I really get a kick out of doing Ringcraft with a pup that I bred myself, and meet a great crowd.  I am sure that lots of folk, like me, didn't particularly decide to breed.  Just got the bug!

I haven't had a litter yet, but I am planning one for next summer. My breed is relatively new to me (had boxers previously) 5 years in this breed, switched after losing our last boxer girl at the age of 15 months to cancer and was not prepared to go through that again. I would say it is deffinatley a case of a bit of both for me, showing and falling hook line and sinker for the breed. Me and OH had always thought boxers were the only breed for us, until owning one of the current breed and we are now smitten they are fantastic dogs. Although that does not stop me wandering over to the boxer ring at every opportunity to get my fix!!!!!!!! :)

Hmm, well I went looking for a puppy who would be a pet, but not look out of place at the occasional open show just for fun. I got the best dog my friend bred in 25 years, with a CC, 2 firsts at Crufts, a ShCM, BIS at a club show and so on. Obviously this hooked me on the showing lark! Then like many pet people I wanted a puppy from my boy, but luckily my boy was of suitable quality. However he is quite closely bred (his breeder would not do this mating now with SM so much in my breed) and also blenheim Cavs even of his standard are pretty common so he didn't get many stud enquiries, so I bought a bitch with complementary lines. She missed to him and he then developed a heart murmur so could not be used, but of course by then she was winning fairly well at shows and I loved her to bits and wanted a baby Ellie. So we had a litter last year, and she only had boys and I want a girl, so we'll try again next year if she continues to pass her health tests. :-)

I started breeding last year after owning the same breed for 18 years.  I absolutely love this breed of dog, their personalities, cheekiness, beauty, lots of different colour variations.  I could just sit looking at them all day long!  except of course they want to go walkies!

My oldest girl had her 1st litter last year and it was something that i had wanted to do for a very long time but due to work etc had to wait until i was able to not work before doing this.  i took a lot of advice from experienced breeders on board, especially regarding health tests.. and wanted to get it right.  I am now about to say goodbye to our 2nd litter this week and feel very proud that they have a brilliant start in life and they all have lovely, caring new homes to go to..  This is one of the most rewarding things ever (and i dont mean financially as i am not doing it for the money as my puppies have had the best of everything here and cost an absolute fortune but they are worth every penny).

It is also really nice to keep in contact with the new owners and i have met up with a few of them and also held a reunion puppy party in the summer and hoping to do another one next year.

> Some of you may have noticed that I have been asking a lot of questions about breeding and spaying.

Yes :)  Can I ask Why?

well i'm so new to all this - our girl is due any day now - first litter for her and first for many years for us and i cant explain the excitement and anticipation we're all experiencing. 
yes i know there could be heartache, extreme tiredness and maybe the worse could happen but i'd go through it all again just to feel her babies kicking around and her quizical look as one gets a bit too boisterous.  i dont know what will happen over the next few days - we all hope for a healthy outcome but who knows?
i think.......from personal experience......you have to do masses of research which doesnt mean just reading books but listening to other breeders and reading forums just like this to get an idea before embarking on this journey.  i personally cant wait ........but maybe i'll change my mind when this first litter is born!!

As I've said on several of my posts, I have 2 young Shelties 6 and 7 months, I have an older Sheltie aged 2 and half and she's spayed, I felt I was not in a good position to breed her but now I have more time and finances are easier, I would really love to have a go at breeding. I am a bit nervous about taking this big step, so I feel that if I do not breed with one or the other or even both of the young ones then what do I do about spaying as it seems such a drastic step, and it has caused coat and incontinence issues with my other 3 spayed dogs.

I needed to know more about spaying because I always thought (vet influenced) that it HAD to be done after 1st season, now I know from listening to you ladies that it can be done later in life so this gives me even more time to prepare myself for the big step into breeding.

As I've said on previous posts I intend to speak to both of the breeders of my Shelties, but it was very useful and informative to hear what all of you other experienced people had to say, even down to what made you all start breeding

Hi Nicola,

I find this title to sit uncomfortably with me, and I suspect, several others - hence my question :)  IMO it would be better to look into the myriad of reasons NOT to breed and why responsible owners therefore don't rather than the other way around.  After all, who is going to admit that they just wanted their kids to see the miracle of birth / wanted a clone of Poochy-poo / could do with a few quid for Christmas funds etc (where are those rolleyes when we need them ;) )

So, based on the above, here comes the detail ....

I am of the firm belief that nobody should breed a litter except for the genuine improvement of the breed concerned so would rule out anyone being suitable to do so who was not actively and successfully involved in showing, working or similar competitive discipline with a breed.  Added to that they should have had many years involvement with the breed at the competitive level they are in and with success, importantly they should know the lines of their dogs inside out - for type, health and temperament (all of equal importance BTW, not compromising one for another) - i.e. not just names on a pedigree or photos either for that matter but have met many of them and be suitably knowledgeable to assess them fully in all aspects as well as their siblings, progeny etc.

In breeds which have no shortage of successful, experienced and dedicated stockmen and large numbers of litters already registered year in and out then IMO there is little need for anyone to newly embark on a breeding mission without the encouragement and guidance of a particularly successful breeder mentor who is most probably only encouraging a mating to further the gene pool in their own or other valuable lines in the breed.

To protect existing healthy lines & improve on qualities while keeping true to the standard should be the aim - other reasons don't come into it for me.

HTH your personal research,
regards, Teri

Thank-you Teri for that info and I promise you it has given me serious food for thought, alot of the points you have raised are the very reasons why I have been nervous about taking this step.

In the mean-time and again showing my ignorance what do all of your abreviations mean I have seen them on several posts and am lost, please don't berate me for my lack of inside knowledge.

> In the mean-time and again showing my ignorance what do all of your abreviations mean I have seen them on several posts and am lost, please don't berate me for my lack of inside knowledge

Nicola, don't be daft :-D  (see, non-berating icon!)

OK, abbreviations, quick scan I've come up with

BTW - by the way
IMO - im my opinion (some write IMHO meaning in my humble opinion - I ain't got a humbe bone in my body so why lie :-D )
IME - in my experience

there are probably more - apologies, the more we use the internet the less we use the English language it seems (a recognisable version anway!)
HTH, (whoops, there goes another one - 'hope this helps')

Teri :)

I am a bit nervous about taking this big step, so I feel that if I do not breed with one or the other or even both of the young ones then what do I do about spaying as it seems such a drastic step, and it has caused coat and incontinence issues with my other 3 spayed dogs.

I don't quite see the connection -even if you do breed from them, what will it change? Why not just leave them entire as long as they are fit and healthy if you don't want to spay? It doesn't have to mean you have to breed from them. :)

I'm a bit worried by the people on this forum that talk of breeding from their puppies (when they're older), or even talk of breeding before they've got their puppies. In my opinion nobody should get a dog to breed from it. Get a dog because you want to enjoy it's companionship, get a dog to compete in sports, showing whatever. There may come a time, several years down the line, when you realise that your current dog/bitch is actually very nice - they will have proven themselves in whatever field you compete and someone else may ask to use your dog, or for a pup - then you can start thinking about breeding. If you don't compete in any field with your dogs I don't think you should breed. Rescues, and the free papers are full of dogs with 'excellent pedigrees'.

Oh my god, well that shows what a 'twonk' I am, I thought it was all special technical terms that only breeders and showers (if there is such a term) would know about.

Well that's it I'm doomed I can't even do mobile phone text, I still do everything long hand with capital letters and punctuation etc, I still can't read half of the gobbledegook that my children text to me.

I've yet to master the smiley things on this message board.

To MarianneB

If I don't breed, which I probably won't as you have all managed to convince me it is not a good thing to do, I will be happy with my current dogs and just buy more from good breeders when I want them,  I will also not get my bitches spayed as I now know that it is not something you  HAVE to do if you don't breed.  Does that make the connection?

Think I'll try agility instead, I've jumped through enough hoops since coming on this forum!!

Nicola I meant no offence at ALL, just could not understand why you equated not spayed with having to breed as it was a new one to me. :)

No offence taken I promise you, maybe I did not make myself clear in the earlier post, I've done so much chatting on this forum in the last few days and had so much conflicting info about spaying and not spaying, breeding and not breeding that my head is spinning. Basically I wanted to breed but I wanted to be sure that it was the right thing to do, now I know it is not. I also wanted to know if spaying really has to be done if you don't breed, now I know it doesn't.

I think I'll still try agility though, I could do with losing a few pounds

Hi Nicola I am sad for you that others posted on this thread have put you off breeding!! you sound like a very responsible, caring dog owner.

I can understand (and yes I have researched a lot into improving the breed and using the right health tested dog for my girl to mate with) the importance of being very cautious, careful and trying to get everything possible done to make sure that the puppies are healthy and socialised well, but i don't see the need to have to 'show' my dogs.  Although i believe the fun dog shows are good, I have also had a glimpse into the world of 'showing' and what i saw was not particulary nice for the dogs or humans and do not believe that any dog enjoys being stuck in a cage or car, for in some case's dawn to dusk.  I know this will probably open a minefield of discussion with a lot of you but i am just expressing my opinion.  This could also lead to the question 'why do people show'?  (its definetely not for the dog)

Do all the research you need and speak to others that have bred (especially your own breed) and have a re-think.  If this is something you really, really would love to do then look for an mentor that can advise you.  Yes mine tried to put me off initially but then realised after numerous discussions that it was a genuine love of the breed and very long thought out (over several years).

Hi Wendy

Now I'm blubbing so I shall respond more sensibly later, I did so want to breed

Wendy,

Nicola indeed sounds like a very caring and responsible dog owner - that she has taken on board any advice from contributors who are pointing out the valid reasons for breeding and has decided it is not for her (at this stage at any rate) is highly commendable.  Why then should you be 'sad'

Since you don't show your own dog(s) - who then evaluates their quality regarding 'improving' the breed? 
For whom do you breed your pups - the pet market alone?
In your 'glimpse of the world of showing' how could you fail to notice the outstanding physical and mental condition of the best dogs? 

What on earth gives you the impression that it is right to suggest that the OP 'has a re-think' ?

Hi again Nicola,

You have no need to be upset by anything.  You are trying to establish, or at least get a feel for, what is the best thing to do re possibly breeding your bitch when she is older.  

IMO you are to be commended for seeking advice and more so again for possibly rethinking your decisions on whether breeding is the right thing for your bitch(es), yourself and your particular breed :)

'Wanting to breed' is not sufficient reason to do so - there are many adverse health implications in breeding, not just those covered by pre-breeding health tests.  Things can go very wrong which can cause  not only the loss of a litter but the death of the bitch too.  There is much more to be taken into consideration and IMO it is something even the most experienced breeders lose sleep over.

Perhaps look further into the many complications which can arise, the difficulties of finding the best forever homes, the problems if having to take back a pup (or more) that has for some reason not remained with the original home (and this at any stage of it's life).   As well as the advice I've already given you, please put those findings into the mix of things when assessing whether you really want to breed or not.

If only everything in life were simple >sigh<

Best wishes, Teri :) 

> This could also lead to the question 'why do people show'?&nbsp; (its definetely not for the dog)
>

I can only speak as a puppy buyer as I don't show or breed but as I understand it showing is a way to assess breeding stock.As a puppy buyer I went out of my way to find a breeder that shows her dogs(as well as health tested and had experience) as I wanted to know they were serious about the breed and that they weren't just churning out pets from their pets and adding to the overpopulation for no good reason.I didn't even consider looking at breeders that didn't show.Just another point of view :)

Well done charlie72 :)  That is the ideal way that everyone sourcing a puppy should follow.

Can I ask, did you research how to go about buying a puppy this way, just do this through gut instinct, know someone who advised you etc? 

I'd be very interested to know how you came to the conclusion because often times on the forum we read of people buying almost on impulse or simply through being impressed by an ad/website etc. as well of course as free-ads, pet shops, a friend/neighbour's accidental litter :(

kind regards, Teri :)

I have also had a glimpse into the world of 'showing' and what i saw was not particulary nice for the dogs or humans and do not believe that any dog enjoys being stuck in a cage or car, for in some case's dawn to dusk.

My dogs love shows, and they're with me all the time -not caged. Dogs love being with their owners, whatever you do together. How do you know if you haven't shown your own dogs?

And how do you know what faults they have? Just reading the breed standard and looking at other dogs getting placed won't tell you that -critiques will. Simple example, when I started in my breed I didn't realise my first bitch had eyes that were a shade too light. They were the same as many others of the same breed at shows, darker than some (mainly those not show dogs), but yes, paler than some. It wasn't until a judge mentioned in her report that the eyes should be a bit darker that I realised what shade was the correct one and eventually when I mated that bitch, years later after she'd done well at shows and had been hip scored and eye tested, was able to pick a dog with darker eyes.

That judge, by the way, was Teri! It's only a very basic example, but should show how you just cannot know your own dogs' faults without showing experience.

Well done charlie72   That is the ideal way that everyone sourcing a puppy should follow.

Can I ask, did you research how to go about buying a puppy this way, just do this through gut instinct, know someone who advised you etc? 

I'd be very interested to know how you came to the conclusion because often times on the forum we read of people buying almost on impulse or simply through being impressed by an ad/website etc. as well of course as free-ads, pet shops, a friend/neighbour's accidental litter

kind regards, Teri 

I actualy stumbled accross this forum ;) When my first Boxer died 6 years ago I tried to contact his breeder but she'd moved so I started searching the net for breeders and very luckily found this forum and breeder list first,read it from top to bottom and have been hanging around ever sinse :)  I help run a breed forum with a friend involved in rescue so see both sides of it as well as advising people where to buy a pup etc.I am always astonished that they come looking for information after impulse buying (and problems have emerged) ,9 out of 10 times from a BYB or pet shop :(

> I actualy stumbled accross this forum

LOL - then it's doing it's job kiddo (a relief to hear sometimes ;) )

Thanks for the info!
Teri

> My dogs love shows, and they're with me all the time -not caged. Dogs love being with their owners, whatever you do together

Exactly Marianne!  Mine go anywhere and everywhere with me - first and foremost it's the 'being with me' that counts, everything else is incidental :)  And yes, most love the ring - if they don't then they don't perform and if they don't perform they rarely do well.  Two of mine which have not enjoyed the experience were retired despite sitting on CCs because they went off the show environment.  They still would jump in the car in a heartbeat and travel however many miles and enjoy the out of ring experiences of being fed, fussed, groomed and meeting their 'friends' though.

> That judge, by the way, was Teri!

Crumbs - does that make me influential LOL.  Ah, but I'm guessing we're talking the beautiful Ripley - so what's a bit of a lightish eye ;)

> I can only speak as a puppy buyer as I don't show or breed but as I understand it showing is a way to assess breeding stock.As a puppy buyer I went out of my way to find a breeder that shows her dogs(as well as health tested and had experience) as I wanted to know they were serious about the breed and that they weren't just churning out pets from their pets and adding to the overpopulation for no good reason.I didn't even consider looking at breeders that didn't show.Just another point of view :-)

Yes i agree, that is exactly what we we done too :)

OK dexter, spill :-D  how did you become so dog-smart?

It's good to be reminded now and again that there are still cracking homes out there where the owners have done their homework :)  It's all too easy to forget when we read so many sad stories.

> Exactly Marianne!&nbsp; Mine go anywhere and everywhere with me - first and foremost it's the 'being with me' that counts, everything else is incidental

Mine love shows but I think it's the hamburgers and chips that count! LOL Shows are where my dogs gets to be a bit naughty. We share bad food like burgers and ice cream. My girl jumps around like a loon after our run, tail wagging furiously - not exactly a miserable pooch. I don't show my boy but if I know I'll have a friend with me I bring him along so he can have a day out too. They get lots of fuss made by their show aunties and anyone else that succombs to their doggy wills.

I'm always a little surprised that people separate showing from other activities so much. It's just one of the things I do with my dog. Like obedience, tracking etc. - it's just one more activity. Yes, there may be a few people with dogs in a crate but there are also pet owners that crate their dogs when they leave the house. I don't hear people saying things like no one should own a dog because they disagree with how some people treat their dogs. Many people who show are just pet owners out for a fun day with their companions.

We have learnt are lesson :), by not researching breeders properly..... we got caught out buying our girl, we were naive i suppose :( the breeder just wanted to make a quick buck, and even told me if i wanted to breed from her then charge top whack as she has a good pedigree!!
Needless to say we haven't bred from her as we did not want to breed, and she hasn't the temperament (fearful).
Basically we done everything your not meant to do!! LOL still i wouldn't be with out my girl.

I have spent two years getting to know our breeder and her me, as i will be new to the breed, she has been very helpful and honest :)

> as I understand it showing is a way to assess breeding stock. As a puppy buyer I went out of my way to find a breeder that shows her dogs(as well as health tested and had experience) as I wanted to know they were serious about the breed and that they weren't just churning out pets from their pets and adding to the overpopulation for no good reason.I didn't even consider looking at breeders that didn't show.Just another point of view :-)

Ditto.  We read as much as we could about the breed we thought we wanted, then went to Discover Dogs to check if it was what we hoped for.  We viewed a ring full of dogs, talked to owners and made a note of the dogs that 'caught our eye'.  We checked the catalogue, then looked online at other show results to see what we could learn about our the breeding, and breeders, of our preferred dogs.  We talked to a few breeders on the phone and made appointments to see a couple and also to visit a few owners too.  In the meantime we started to visit shows on gundog day to see the breed we wanted but also to look at the others that had been in our minds.  All this reassured us that we were doing the right thing with both breed and breeder and we finally joined what we thought was going to be a 14 month waiting list.

In the meantime we became interested in showing and we were very lucky, due to a change in someones circumstances we were offered pick dog and we haven't looked back.  Our breeder is brilliant and people we've met through her, and whilst showing, have been amazingly kind and helpful. 

I came to CD because of the showing element but I remain most impressed by the level of commitment shown by many of breeders on here.  There are a few names that consistently give good advice on all manner of subjects.  Breeding is not something to be undertaken lightly and a desire to breed is just not good enough.  It has to be about producing dogs that will strengthen and develop the breed.  Whilst I do not accept that only show people are able to make those decisions I do believe that people who successfully work or compete with their dogs in some capacity are the best qualified to judge the attributes required improve the breed. :)

> Whilst I do not accept that only show people are able to make those decisions I do believe that people who successfully work or compete with their dogs in some capacity are the best qualified to judge the attributes required improve the breed. :-)

I agree and if I'd wanted a breed that was worked in some capacity I would have included those breeders in my criteria :)

Teri and Wendy

Yes I did very much want to breed and maybe this is not a good enough reason, but I had wanted to do it with my favourite breeder, for her to help me pick the right sire using her knowledge of the breed and prospective studs, for her to quide me through each step of pregnancy and birth, for her to basically go with me through everything, poor mare would probably have heart failure as it sounds stressful enough just dealing with your own without carrying the burden of helping someone else.

I must be honest and say that it does very much seem as though people who show would like to be the only ones that breed as they feel they do best by their breed and their own personal dogs, this somehow implies that those who breed and do not show are damaging the breed they choose and producing pups of a lesser quality, and I'm sure that the non-showers would disagree. It's probably a case of agree to disagree and nair the twain shall meet.

One thing I have learnt that is very important to me is that I do not HAVE to spay, as by not spaying I buy myself more time to research and consider my options.

I shall continue with my 2 old spayed dogs, my young spayed dog and my 2 new baby dogs, no doubt more pups will be bought (through my favourite breeder)
more dogs will be rescued as will more cats (9 of to date) then there's the rescued parrot and god knows how many other paraqueets, and I want to breed

I MUST BE DUCKING MAD!!!

If anyone knows an expert in their particular breed i.e show judge, and asks them to assess your own dogs, advises you of the good points with your dog and if there is 'room for improvement' (there is no such thing as an 100% perfect dog in every way - breed standard, absolute perfect temperament, behaviour etc.. as with humans...) but obviously if you are going to breed then you need as near as doggie possible to this and match the sire/dam to complement the slight imperfections to improve on the breed. 

I would just like to add that i couldn't possibly love and care for my dogs more than what i do. 

I also slightly resent some of the 'i know it alls and patronising posts that may make some 'ordinary people' pull back from going any further into the wonderful world of dogs!!!

I must be honest and say that it does very much seem as though people who show would like to be the only ones that breed as they feel they do best by their breed and their own personal dogs, this somehow implies that those who breed and do not show are damaging the breed they choose and producing pups of a lesser quality, and I'm sure that the non-showers would disagree. It's probably a case of agree to disagree and nair the twain shall meet.

Nicola, you managed to put this into words much better than me!! Thank you and i totally agree with this!!

> If anyone knows an expert in their particular breed i.e show judge, and asks them to assess your own dogs

Thing is - that's just one person's opinion - the idea of showing is that you are making sure there is a general consensus your dogs are good - if one judge thinks your dog's good but every single other judge passes them over that tells you something. Not everyone will agree - but it is to get a broad and preferably unbiased spectrum of opinion. And I neither judge nor breed - that is just how I see it should be.

Wendy
I do very much feel like an ordinary person trying to step into a world where I am not wanted or welcomed, and that breeding is the domain of the show owner only.

Ironically my OH says it was exactly the same in the bird world when he began breeding parrots/parakeets all the 'experienced' breeders said he should not be dabbling in something he new nothing about.

He has I hasten to add gone on to breed very succesfully.

> I must be honest and say that it does very much seem as though people who show would like to be the only ones that breed as they feel they do best by their breed and their own personal dogs, this somehow implies that those who breed and do not show are damaging the breed they choose and producing pups of a lesser quality, and I'm sure that the non-showers would disagree. It's probably a case of agree to disagree and nair the twain shall meet.
>

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing,if you want to be responsible for your breed then why would you not go about it the right way and show?(or work/compete in some way) What other reason is there to breed your dog? Rescues are overflowing with dogs bred by people not responsible for their breed or their pups.As I see it you are either a responsible breeder  going about it the right way or you aren't.I've not wanted to show or breed but from what I can gather people would be more than willing to help newbies if they wanted to go about it in the right way.

Nicola did you read those articles I posted the other day in the other thread? This one in particular..

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

It's not about how much you love and care for your dog but responsibility and reasons for breeding.

I've spent 25 years and probably 40 weekends of each of those years, travelling around the country showing my dogs.  To me it's not about beating others, it's about proving that my dogs are consistantly of good enough quality to be useful to the breed.  It's also about listening and learning from the old experienced breeders who have forgotten more than I'll ever know!  We get more from showing than the opinion of just one judge.  This has cost time, money and emotion.  Why then should someone who has committed so much of their life to their choice of breed, share their knowledge with someone with a 'plain' bitch, who without putting in any effort, "just wants to breed"?  I'm sorry but I won't. :(  Neither will I sell a bitch puppy to anyone who, with no previous interest or experience, tells me that they want their puppy to have a litter.  In a numerically large breed there is no reason to breed from anything but the best.  In smaller breeds where a larger gene pool is needed, then things are a little different and a plain bitch may have something to contribute.
But what I will do and always have done is to help and encourage anyone who is prepared to put in the time to learn about my breed.  To do that they need to look, learn and listen from those who know what they're doing, and shows are the best place to meet a large number of people who have the knowledge that they need to know enough.  This doesn't happen in a few weeks or months but over a much longer period of time.  Anyone who is prepared to commit, then I will do everything in my power to help and will share everything that I know. :)

I know rescue homes are overflowing with dogs, I have taken on two myself and as children all 5 of our family pets came from rescue centres.  If you read carefully into the post that you are commenting on you will see that it was my full intention to be responsible for my breed, re-read the part about working totally with my breeder. If I were not responsible for either my own pets or my breed I would have let my (now spayed) young bitch out to get laid by any passing vagabond, I think that shows element of resonsibilty

Charlie72

I am wading through so much lierature at the moment you can barely see my longe floor and the OH looks dead miserable.

I will read all material posted to me

Hi again Nicola

> must be honest and say that it does very much seem as though people who show would like to be the only ones that breed as they feel they do best by their breed and their own personal dogs

not entirely true, as I mentioned in the first post also those who work their dogs :)

>this somehow implies that those who breed and do not show are damaging the breed they choose and producing pups of a lesser quality

It's more than an implication TBH.   I would happily go on record to say that IMO anyone breeding without due regard for the future welfare and protection of a breed are, albeit to varying degrees, damaging breeds.  It's also the reasons for 'producing pups' which I have issue with and yes, if there is no formal evaluation of the breeding stock who is responsible for  'quality control'?

> It's probably a case of agree to disagree and nair the twain shall meet

Breed clubs and those breeders actively and successfully involved in the showing and/or working of their breeds are going to great lengths to encourage new interest in them - however irresponsible interest, i.e. breeding for gain and without regard or knowledge of the breeds strengths, weaknesses, history and plans for improvement is not and IMO should not ever be encouraged. 

> then there's the rescued parrot and god knows how many other paraqueets, and I want to breed
>
> I MUST BE DUCKING MAD!!!

LOL, very probably! :-D

> I know rescue homes are overflowing with dogs

Why add to the general dog population then?

There is no need to breed unless by doing so you are improving your breed in some way. Breeding from your pets, no matter how well looked after and no matter how good your intentions are will NOT improve their breed in any way - so why do it? Why not let the people who want pet shelties go to show breeders, or those who breed for agility or obedience, and buy some of the pups from those litters. Probably only one or two from each litter will be top class show quality and the rest will need good pet homes.

> I would have let my (now spayed) young bitch out to get laid by any passing vagabond, I think that shows element of resonsibilty

indeed, one can charge more for a pedigree puppy!

Wendy :)

> If anyone knows an expert in their particular breed i.e show judge, and asks them to assess your own dogs, advises you of the good points with your dog and if there is 'room for improvement'

If only it were that simple :)  Without the benefit of several experienced judges, both specialists for the finer points, and multi-breed judges for keeping feet on the ground and exaggerrations at bay, we can't even begin to have an accurate and non-biased assessment of our dogs' qualities.  Over and above which dogs change, quite dramatically, over time and what looked like a promising prospect could become far from ideal at 2, 3 or 4 ... there are no guarantees and only by having stock assessed at varying stages by independent judges experienced in conformation, working/field trials etc can we get a true picture of what we have in front of us.

> obviously if you are going to breed then you need as near as doggie possible to this and match the sire/dam to complement the slight imperfections to improve on the breed

With all due respect, there is rather more to breeding than merely matching a sire and dam.  Phenotype and genotype are not so easily guaged, certainly not by anyone with no in depth background knowledge of the ancestors and other progeny in a pedigree for several generations.  This knowledge requires the ability to know the health status, temperament, conformation faults, pigment, dentition, fertility and/or whelping issues if any (TBH the list is endless ;) ) of the stock and their relatives too - again over generations :) 

While not every breeder can be armed with all the information from the outset, at least if they have a lengthy involvement and interest in the breed proven by attendance at shows or trials over several years, keeping up to speed with health requirements, researching pedigrees, yearbooks and basically bending the ear of every successful exhibitor/breeder/worker they can get hold of  and having sourced a trusted breeder and mentor with quality stock of good health, type, character and abilities they have a chance at becoming a good breeder and in turn a possibility of improving as well as safeguarding the breed :)

In turn, such a breeder's stock will be valued and sought after by others wishing to improve and protect their own lines for future generations - how can pet stock pups from pet stock parents bred strictly for a pet market make a contribution to the improvement of a breed and it's gene pool

> I also slightly resent some of the 'i know it alls and patronising posts that may make some 'ordinary people' pull back from going any further into the wonderful world of dogs!!

I asked before but possibly you've missed it since this thread has grown quite dramatically now - why do you breed, Wendy?

I agree whole heartedly with your points WestCoast and react similarly to approaches for help and guidance :)

regards, Teri

Just read it Charlie72

You know what confuses me though is why I could be considered a BYB if it had been my intention to put my bitches through all the necessary tests to see if they are even healthy enough to breed from and not carrying some evil trait that could be passed on, mind you the breeder of my pups should also have done the same so in theory there should not be any evils, but better safe than sorry. Why would I be considered a BYB if I had intended for my 2 breeders to give their opinions on the quality of my bitches are they even standard good enough. Why would I be a BYB if I had intended that any puppies that left me would leave with full packs, first jabs, chipped and info from me and my breeders plus bring back contracts. Would I be a BYB if I only bred once and kept most if not all of the pups myself  (Shelties don't have litters the size of Goldies)

Tigger2

Only if one intends to sell it

> I wanted to know they were serious about the breed and that they weren't just churning out pets from their pets and adding to the overpopulation for no good reason

I so wish more people thought like this, especially when you read this, as bad as this is going to sound, a friend of mine has a bull mastiff she is about 8 months old kc reg, from the very off her and her husband's first thoughts were to breed her, this might i add is their first dog, i can hear you all drawing in your breath, as did i, i have pleaded with her not to do this, and shamefully i no why they want to breed her, it is because of the cash register sound. what makes it even worse, now i hear you say, how can it get worse?, is at 8 months old the dog has had NO TRAINING what so ever, so its not like they have a real care for dogs, they can barely be bothered with the one they have, their dog needs serious training ( as some of you with first hand experience will no there size and strength) she is out of control, i have no idea how else to drop big subtle hints that 1, you are not fit enough to breed this dog, 2, breeding isnt about CASH, 3, you do not have enough knowledge and wouldnt get the knowledge (because this is not there intrest as said money is) 4, it is disgusting and out right gob smacking. This is adding to the over population for no good reason other than cold hard cash! Rant over i hand it over to you.

I've just gone through all available tests(both DNA & clinical)bar one(PRA to be done prob in November)with my bitch only to discover that her hips may not be good enough to breed from. You have a breed that has the same eye, hip & MDR 1 test requirements as my bitch, only thing is if your bitches are CEA carriers or affected it will be almost impossible to find a stud dog that is DNA clear.

When I started breeding(OMG in 1971)it was to produce an improved dog on the one I had & I did(all the health tests available were done)& that is what I have always done & also always keeping at least one puppy. My dogs have either been shown in breed, worked in Obedience/WT or Sheepdog trials suceessfully before they were considered for breeding from-hence if my bitch's hips are scored higher than I consider to be suitable she will NOT be being bred from ever