So whilst I'm keen on the idea of breeding my 2 youngest Shelties (no firm decision made on this yet as I'd be a first timer ,but we all have to start somewhere).
What if I decide against the idea to breed, do I get them spayed?
My older dogs have all been spayed because 'that's what you do to stop an unwanted puppy explosion', but talking to the breeder of my 2 latest babies she doesn't like spaying, it spoils the coat and can make a bitch fat and can mess up her nature. To be honest I know what she means about the coat as I notice on my Collie, Goldie and older Sheltie that the coat is heavier or awkward round the 'bum end' plus the Sheltie is carrying what I think is too much weight (please advise she's at 8.75kg now).
Do the chemical options work are they bad for pooches health and are they expensive?

I'd spay.. ok it makes their coats less glossy but its a small price to pay..

if you keep a bitch unspayed they can develop ovarian cancer (or something like that, dont know exactly) something fatal anyway.. spaying them erradicates the problem..
It also means that they wont go through having all of these hormones flying about during seasons and not being able to do anything with them.. plus they are less likely to get a phantom pregnancy

As for the bitch getting overweight.. i do think that some bitches put on weight easyer when spayed, but its mainly an excuse as a healthy bitch that is fed well and exersised adequately shouldn't have a weight problem.

mess up her nature? hmmm in my experience the bitch hasn't changed one bit.

>she doesn't like spaying, it spoils the coat

The breed record holder Ch.Myriehewe Rosa Bleu was a spayed bitch. I remember a lot of grumbling at the time that spaying gave this particular breed an unfair advantage.

gundoggal have you details on how many actually get ovarian cancer?  We have never spayed any of ours and our Pom's live on average until 16.  One of my Spanish was pts at 12, not due to cancer or anything like that and her daughter has just turned 15.  In over 30 years of owning dogs (whilst living at my parents as well of course) we have never experienced any cancers in any of our entire dogs or bitches.

I thought the biggest (reported)risk with entire females was breast cancer? It's the reason vets like to spay before the first season(mainly in the States) saying there was evidence this reduces the risk with it increasing at each season? Pyometria is the other risk.I've never owned a female but hear those reasons alot.

I dont think there should be any second thoughts on whether to spay or not if not wanting to breed your bitches. :)
Reduces the risk of cancer and the risk of unwanted puppies, is there any contest against not spaying when not breeding?
Glossy coats or not its safer and more responsible to spay your bitch :)

For Gundoggal
It's 'Pyometra' (Womb and Uterine Infections) and also mammary cancers can be an issue.
Like Perrodeagua my breeder told me that she had never experienced problems with un-spayed bitches, maybe that was pure luck or maybe some breeds are more prone to problems than others.
As for being on the heavier side, my spayed Sheltie is exercised loose over fields every day plus lead work, but I have to say that since being spayed her appetite has changed and she is a glutton, portions have been reduced and I'm working on her, does 8.75kg seems excessive for a Sheltie

F.A.O rach85

Spaying can actually increase the risk of some types of cancer, usually bone cancer, which has a very poor prognosis. It can also cause urinary incontinence. Spaye dbitches can also get a type of Pyo called 'stump pyo', admittedly very rare, but a factor, nonetheless.

Unwatned puppies is never a risk in unspayed, responsibly kept dogs, IMO. After all, almost all show dogs are kept entire, and yet we do not see them being plagued with unwanted litters.

There is a good 'arguement' both for and against spaying, it is not simply cut and dried. I also find it funny how most often those who advocate spaying the most are the ones who have little or no experience of entire bitches.

> I also find it funny how most often those who advocate spaying the most are the ones who have little or no experience of entire bitches.

I have the expierance of plenty unspeyed bitches but still believe IMHO that speying is best :)

> Unwatned puppies is never a risk in unspayed, responsibly kept dogs, IMO. After all, almost all show dogs are kept entire, and yet we do not see them being plagued with unwanted litters

Not a risk in unspeyed for unwanted puppies?
Check out the web for adverts for litters which were the result of an unspeyed female not being kept correctly ;)
Of course show dogs are kept from having puppies as they are owned by responsible breeders, not someone who has a bitch and cant afford to have her speyed and hopes for the best with puppies and not being mated for example ;)

> It can also cause urinary incontinence

My girl suffers from this due to an early speying on the vets bad advice
But I still say to spey unless breeding under KC rules and pedigree stock but each to their own of course :)

We do experience some urinary incontinence in our spayed 10 year old rescue BC.
It does seem possible that there could be an increased risk with bone cancer, after all in human females after an Hysterectomy there is an increased risk of Osteoperosis, so female hormones must be important to health.

If I decide not to breed my girls and also not to spay I agree with you that there would be no un-wanted puppies as the girls would be kept in and monitered.

I gather from your post Jackson that you may have experience of un-spayed bitches, do you like my breeder find it not to be a problem?

>Unwatned puppies is never a risk in unspayed, responsibly kept dogs, IMO

I agree with that. I've had unspayed bitches for many years and they've not had a single unplanned mating, let alone unwanted litters.

I can afford to have my two girls spayed if I choose to, my three older bitches have been done. I am interested in the pro's and con's should I decide not to breed, nobody has mentioned the chemical options has anybody experience of these?

> I can afford to have my two girls spayed if I choose to

Wasnt suggesting otherwise just to clear that up quickly ;)

With breeders who have a respect for the breed and understand what happens in the 'real' world with unwanted pups then yeah leaving unspeyed can be a bonus but still carries risk of cancer etc but breeders have done it for years with no problems :)
I worry when people who DONT keep their dogs well kept and confined with safe gardens etc and dont keep bitches  in when their having a season etc, these sort of folk should spey their bitches and neuter males most definitly as they are not breeders and shouldnt attempt to be or wait for an accident to happen IMHO :)

We had ni intention of breeding Mitzy and we arent breeders or showers with her so she was spade for her own good, well she would have been if the vets didnt say 'yeah spey at 6 months'

> For Gundoggal
> It's 'Pyometra' (Womb and Uterine Infections) and also mammary cancers can be an issue.
>

ahhh yes i was thinking of mammary cancer i think.... thanks Nicola

I don't electively spay but had one 7 year old girlie done for a pyo and she looks fab...almost the best she's ever looked.

I think overall the main reason I would spay is the fact that its a little unfair on the bitch if she has to be kept in for a month out of every 6... Ok some breeds can tolerate this more than others but it causes my labs to go completely nutty if not walked =] Might aswell spay them because then they dont have to go through the frustration of wanting to mate =]

My neighbour had a little Shi-tzu un-unspayed, it developed nasty cancers in later life, and she had an Old English un-spayed that developed open pyometra in later life and needed an emergency 'hysto' to save her, the old English gained a new lease of life but the Shi-tzu had to be PTS, it was this plus the vet that made me have our Goldie, Collie and first Sheltie done, but with these two new little ones, I'm not sure after hearing what their breeder said and some of the comments all of you ladies (I assume sorry chaps if some of you are) have made. Also thinking when you breeders are breeding and the girl has come to the end of her breeding career do you spay her then or not?

With a coat like that of a Sheltie or Rough Collie, it really isn't as simple as whether a coat is glossy or not. Neutering (male or female) can badly affect the coat of some - not all - but you wouldn't know whether your bitch will have this issue or not. In some, the coat will grow excessively and will lose texture, making it very difficult to care for and losing the insulating properties that a good double coat should have. Believe me, I've seen some horrors, coat to the ground with the texture of candy floss, and you can groom for hours but within a day they'll look as if they haven't seen a brush in a month.

I suspect that if you have the correct hard texture coat in the first place, spaying is less likely to have an adverse effect, but don't know if this is proven - just my experience.

Personally, having had older bitches with pyo, I do spay when bitches will not/no longer be used breeding, but not until they are around 8 years of age. At least then, if the coat is badly affected you haven't got so many years of it and the dog isn't likely to be quite as lively and into shrubbery (tell that to my 9 year old!). I recommend this approach to puppy owners.

M.

>I agree with that. I've had unspayed bitches for many years and they've not had a single unplanned mating, let alone unwanted litters.

Ditto, and like many on here although they are shown, they also live a perfectly normal 'pet' life every other day of the week.

M.

I think the spaying may have affected the coat of my oldest Sheltie (2 and half years). Although she still has a good double coat and she is easy to groom (well I say easy she's not that partial to it) her coat has grown a lot more since spaying the chest hair is about half an inch from the ground and the mane is of a type that would look good on a male, add to that the fact that she AIN'T NO LADY, muddy fields, puddles and also sorts of gunk are order of the day, some times she makes me look like a bad owner :

Oh, mine do the puddles, mud, gunk and FOX POO too! With a coat of the proper texture, most of it will fall off though.

M.

I think this is the most widely used chemical option - and this is a list of the contra-indications and warnings.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Intervet_Schering-Plough/Delvosteron___100_mg_Suspension_for_injection/-28780.html

> I dont think there should be any second thoughts on whether to spay or not if not wanting to breed your bitches. :)
> Reduces the risk of cancer and the risk of unwanted puppies, is there any contest against not spaying when not breeding?
> Glossy coats or not its safer and more responsible to spay your bitch :)

It isn't quite as straight forward as that, but on balance there are more pros than cons for spaying a bitch, but not all.  In large breeds Spay incontinence can make a bit hes life a misery and can be the cause of an owner choosing to PTS an elderly bitch when their house reeks of dog pee.

This article points out the Pros and cons:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

The scare tactics about Cancer are somewhat exaggerated.

I have never spayed a bitch before five years of age, and most not until around 7 and only the one spayed the youngest out of adult 7 bitches developed a mammary tumour, and she lived happily until 13 1/2 and died of Organ failure unrelated to Cancer.  Obviously she had the tumour removed in very timely fashion and analysed.  Half of such tumours are benign.

I spay my bitches to avoid Pyometra which is usually a problem of older bitches.

> I worry when people who DONT keep their dogs well kept and confined with safe gardens etc and dont keep bitches  in when their having a season etc, these sort of folk should spey their bitches and neuter males most definitly as they are not breeders and shouldnt attempt to be or wait for an accident to happen IMHO :)

Unfortunately these are not the ones who will spay their bitches, so putting pressure and scaring good owners into spaying helps not one iota with unwanted or unnecessary litters.

I agree with you Brainless the owner that doesn't care properly for their dogs will be the owner that won't spend money on spaying and neutering.

I on the other hand may or may not breed and I may or may not spay but that does not mean I am a bad owner, if many breeders find that not spaying has not caused  problems then not spaying cannot be all bad, for surely a breeder would not knowingly put a valuable bitch at risk. At the same time I do appreciate that there are also positive reasons for spaying.

I do however feel that the general concensus of opinion from some you is that only 'breeders' should be allowed to have un-spayed bitches because obviously nobody else could possibly look after and un-spayed bitch well enough.

ok it makes their coats less glossy but its a small price to pay..

and they can put on weight and become incontinent, i would never spay a bitch unless there was a problem

> I do however feel that the general concensus of opinion from some you is that only 'breeders' should be allowed to have un-spayed bitches because obviously nobody else could possibly look after and un-spayed bitch well enough

I would have thought the opposite would have come across with many of us who breed being against wholesale neutering advising doing it if and when it is needed, and taking all the pros and many cons into account.

Those who are not responsible enough to not allow their dogs to reproduce Willy nilly (which may include neutering, keeping bitches secure etc), which is part of basic dog care should maybe not have dogs at all.

> and they can put on weight and become incontinent, i would never spay a bitch unless there was a problem

Personally I would spay a bitch if I was not going to breed - but I would wait till she was fully mature - 2.5-3 yrs old. The obvious answer to whether to spay or not to spay is to have dogs - I am quite happy with entire dogs. :-)

The scare tactics about Cancer are somewhat exaggerated.

At a lecture about canine cancer the oncologist said that only if bitches were spayed before their first season was the risk of mammary tumours reduced.

Well I feel good:)
Both Hayley 123, Brainless, Munrogirl76 and Westcoast have made me feel better about not wanting to get my babies spayed (they are still only 6 and 7 months), several but obviosly not all of the comments I've seen have made me feel I was a bad owner.

I think perhaps in my heightened state to do the best for my babies maybe I have only seen the less pleasant comments, I apologise girls:)

I am concerned about your comments WestCoast, that unless spaying is done before first season then cancer risk is not reduced, my vet has always said he advises spaying after the first season as then bitch is then fully mature.

I will now worry about my old Goldie, not a show quality girl but probably the best Goldie in the world anyway, and my rescue Collie with her overshot jaw and fear of sheep, they were both spayed after the first season, and my beautiful Sheltie from excellent pedigree and show stock (boy did we have to prove ourselves to the breeder) she was spayed after 2 seasons as I wanted to breed but decided in the end I could not give the time needed being in full time work.
Have I done wrong by my girls and can I expect problems in the future? Was the vet wrong to advise waiting until after the frist season.

My Collie wee's a lot now, at first we thought it was either the new babies piddling everywhere, then when checking the volume of pee (we have tiled floors so you can see the puddles) it could not have been them. Then we thought it might be stress from having the new babies but they all get on so well it cannot be that. I have noticed she licks her 'girlie bits' a lot now and she does not seem as bouncy as she used to, I know she's getting on 9 and half now but she is a Collie they have energy forever!

my vet has always said he advises spaying after the first season as then bitch is then fully mature.

I would certainly agree with that as hormones play a very important part in growth and overall development.  In fact, I consider that hormones are important to a dog through out its life.  I wouldn't consider spaying, excepting veterinary reasons, until a bitch was fully mature.  BUT spaying later, according to the oncologist who was talking, doesn't reduce the risk of mammary tumours.

>Have I done wrong by my girls and can I expect problems in the future? Was the vet wrong to advise waiting until after the frist season.

I've never had a bitch spayed before her first season (and never would). I've had two spayed between their first and second seasons, one spayed at 8 years and another spayed at 5 years. The first two lived till they were 13 and 15 years old, the third lived till she was 14 and the last will be 14 in February. Breed average lifespan is 12½. I don't think waiting till after the first season did any of them any harm. ;)

I'm glad of your comments and I feel better. :)

So basically I have no worries in allowing my babies to have 3 or more seasons and then if I am still unsure about breeding I can rest assured that I have not given them long term health problems?

I am very interested in breeding and would be very interested in your comments, please see my new topic, 'What made you want to start breeding'

> that unless spaying is done before first season then cancer risk is not reduced

That is a little hard to believe as you would imagine as long as oestrogen is produced you are at some risk.  They would certainly be free of uterine cancers and pyometra. 
I have spayed my last couple of bitches, although in later life, due to the population growth of chavs who do not control their dogs where they should be on lead! :-) but I must say I am now sold on the idea generally.  They could put on weight but this can be controlled, their coats do alter but again can be controlled in a different way perhaps that you might have chosen before and although for some breeds this will not be acceptable in the show ring it is perfectly welcome at companion shows and in others the coat may improve.  Any "bitchy" issues between them when one was in season also vanished and they have had no problems with incontinence even in their dotage.

They would certainly be free of uterine cancers and pyometra.

Absolutely but Vets tend to quote mammary tumours which is just not true.

I can offer no evidence only my honesty that was exactly what the oncologist said.  If you choose to doubt me, then feel free. :)

My personal experience of keeping entire bitches for 25 years is that I've have only had 1 with a mammary tumour.  She's now 12 years old.  The tumour is the size of a marble, hasn't grown for the 2 years since I noticed it, and I doubt if it will lead to her demise.

I don't think you are wrong/misquoting that is the generally held belief, but the risk of mammary tumours being 50% of all entire bitches is not borne out by the experience of entire bitch owners over many breeds,a nd the study that suggested such a high incidence was small and proven later to be erroneous for various reasons as the bitches were not representative enough or a large enough sample.

For example I have owned 7 bitches of at least two years of age and only one had Mammary tumours, and that was easily dealt with, having done straw polls with other breeders similar results seem to come up, low incidence.

A friend with Welsh Springer spaniels basically accepted it as a given that her bitches would end up with them and need to have mammary strips by the time they were 10 years old, every last one of them, which probably was about 8, all same family.

This suggests some breeds or lines are more predisposed, as it is in humans, but we don't advocate women having hysterectomies because feamle relatives had breast cancer..

> but we don't advocate women having hysterectomies because feamle relatives had breast cancer..

I think they do offer it to families with a strong history but of course the whole issue of women having hysterectomies is completely different to dogs as dogs have no psychological issues or the need for continuing ease of marital relations that may be affected by lack of hormones.

> Vets tend to quote mammary tumours which is just not true.

Many mammary tumours are oestrogen fed.  If you have a history of breast cancer it is unlikely that you would be advised to use HRT for instance.

>if I am still unsure about breeding I can rest assured that I have not given them long term health problems?

There are never any guarantees in life, but the risk of illness is lower than some people would have us believe.

I have this decision to make next year, I plan for one more litter from my girl, then my friend who bred my boy and my vet both think she should be spayed. This is because the last 2 seasons she has had infections afterwards, which they say could mean she will get pyo in the future, and it's better to spay her now rather than have her get pyo as a old dog with a heart murmur. Problem is in my breed spaying makes a HUGE difference to the coat, not just looks but upkeep, yes you have to watch for weight gain too. If it's a question of health versus looks of course health comes first. But I have to decide whether to spay her just because she 'might get it one day' - tricky decision. Those hormones do a lot more than just create seasons after all.

hi lucydog sorry if im reading this wrong ,but are u having a litter from your girl that as a heart murmur ,im sure ive miss read that? or she will have a heart murmur when shes older? if so will that not carry on in pups ? ? x

Nicola,

Could I suggest that you do further research on your options  

Whatever the subject, obtaining advice from strangers on an internet forum is hit and miss - some responding will be able to give you the benefit of many years in depth experience of a subject whereas others could just as easily have asked the same question or something similar all of a few weeks ago but rattle off a reply like they're an 'old hand' ;)

I appreciate it can be difficult if not impossible to work out who is speaking from valued and valid experience as opposed to someone enjoying seeing their name in print (TIC) but IMO you would do better to have in depth discussions with your breeder and mentor as (a) they will best know what suits your specific dogs and (b) breed specific advice is worth it's weight in gold :)

best wishes, Teri

> hi lucydog sorry if im reading this wrong ,but are u having a litter from your girl that as a heart murmur ,im sure ive miss read that? or she will have a heart murmur when shes older? if so will that not carry on in pups ? ? x

Totally wrong the bitch doesn't have a heart murmur now, the plan is for a litter & then have her spayed to prevent her possibly needing to be spayed when she is a lot older & may have developed a heart murmur

Personally speaking not as a breeder but a pet owner I think to own bitchs that are spayed is easier. No mess when they come into season, no problem to take them out when in heat, no randy males dogs outside your house and no chance of developing infections ever.

Yes they can put on weight but you just reduce there meal intake easy, my bitch who was spayed at 5 months has a beautiful shining coat yes mostly when she has robbed the margarine tub off the side but generally her coat is lovely. I find bitches attitudes more calmer when spayed. If you had  one bitch in the home it would be fine but several bitches together having seasons could cause clashes so I've been told. 

If you do decide not to go through the op now consider it at least when they get to 5 yrs, a couple of friends of mine have both had bitches one EBT other springer spaniel developed infections and nearly died luckily they both survived.

My sisters dog from Germany a weimaraner had her second litter fine then after developed an infection and had to have emergency operation I remember at the time I said you should of had Cleo spayed when she had the c section but she recovered from that and lived til she was 14.

Thanks MM, yes Ellie is clear (health testing day is next weekend) and Henry's the one with the murmur and not used for stud. :-)

I think to own bitchs that are spayed is easier.

Certainly it might be but that's a selfish attitude with no regard to why nature needs hormones and that's not entirely for procreation!  Maybe we should have all of our daughters that we don't want to breed spayed at 10 years old as that would be easier too!  *Rolls eyes!*

Kept out of it till now but well said WestCoast! :D

I would like to thank you all for you advise/opinions.

I had always intended to do as Teri suggested and that is to speak to my breeders, I was however interested to hear the opinions of lots of people.

I am lucky to have 2 breeders to speak to, one that has a grand operation with over 15 bitches and stunning kennel blocks and one that has only the 2 girls that live with her as pets, both of these ladies have years of experience, they may have differing opinions themselves but I will make my decisions after listening to them

Sounds good to me Nicola. :)  Experience is usually better than emotional ignorance. :)

I agree too, I'm waiting for Jessie's hip score to come back & if it is not good enough to breed from then I will have her spayed, not for convenience, but she has never had a proper season unlike her litter sister & I would have had her spayed after a litter anyway again because of her lack of proper seasons