this one has a telephone link http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

Well think Peanuts it may well be worth you spending £50 to get to the truth of this matter, it would be worth it to tell the council go stuff it's self.

Most councils seem to charge between £100 and £200 for an annual licence, so £50 (for a long phonecall) could potentially be a BIG saving.

Very useful link :)
Thankyou.

Thanks for the links, i will check them out.
Our council charges £97.50 for a licence, but i think what we will do is have meeting with them and they can answer all our questions in person , as the girls we are dealing with does not have any answers, she wants us to talk to her collegue at work., she says that no-one has ever challenged it before they normally just buy a licence, well they haven't met me yet!!!

Peanuts

Peanuts do you think the council phoning you had anything to do with your recent puppy enquirey?

Peanuts please let us know how things go particularly if you get a final and correct answer to what the law actually is, would be a great help to anyone else having a similar problem.

>Peanuts do you think the council phoning you had anything to do with your recent puppy enquirey?

Ooh, well spotted! That could easily be the connection - the spiteful man being vindictive.

I will let you know as soon as i can , but they have agreed to leave it till the pups are 6 weeks, so thats a start.
As for the puppy enquiry , who knows maybe, but it would only get me in trouble if i was doing something wrong, which i.m not so if it was him , he's not going to get much satisfaction is he.

Peanuts

good for you Peanuts at least your puppies will be older and more robust by then :)

> A breeding establishment is defined as meaning any premises (including a private dwelling) where more than two breeding bitches are kept for the purpose of breeding for sale.
>

But this definition was removed with the new breeding and sale of dogs welfare Act.

Plenty of people keep more than two entire bitches and hardly ever breed and BYB's will keep two bitches and breed every season, which is why I understood the definition was changed.

I would imagine you are right Barbara but our councils, here in Cornwall anyway, are slow to catch up.  I've had awful dealings with them and they never back down until you go to arbitration.  Not saying the rest of the country is so backward in its council dealings.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1999/ukpga_19990011_en_1

This is THE act, not read it yet but it should answer all questions at no cost above time.

Had a quick look does not really help, can't find anywhere the definition of what constitutes a premises breeding dogs for sale.

> can't find anywhere the definition of what constitutes a premises breeding dogs for sale.

That is where the council can say they believe your running a business even if you don't breed as many as the act prescribes, but I imagine it would be up to them to prove it.

It seems to be five or more litters in a 12 month you definitely need license, but also if they deem you commercial.

> I think if you read the boards you will find examples of bitches killing entire litters and the possible explanation being that they were afraid for their pups and killed them.  These bitches can be very sweet natured but inexperienced.

As I have said, myself and many breeders I know together with thousands of breeders over the years will have had vets come in at 2 to 5 days old to examine bitches and remove tails and dew claws.  When  people used to dealing with dogs do this with well adjusted bitches it does not appear to cause any problems.
I am sure any inspector would be happy to dip shoes and wash hands if that is what breeders want although expecting them to take their newly dips shoes off seems a little odd to me and they may ask for the rationale on that one! :-)

> all this for one litter in a five year period

I'm a bit confused, Peanuts.  In your first post you said you were having two litters at the end of this year and you have one litter at the moment.

Yes at the moment it's one litter but we are planning another one at the end of the year so it will be 2 litters in a five year period , if everything goes ok, sorry did not mean to confuse, the other bitch has not been mated yet.
I only have two bitches

Peanuts

> I only have two bitches

In that case, you didn't need a Breeder's Licence under the old rules either - I think your local council need to have a look at the information they are sending out, almost like obtaining money under false pretences! :-D

> I only have two bitches

Your website suggests you have 3.

> so it will be 2 litters in a five year period

Your web site mentions a litter in 2005 so he may not be too impressed with your record keeping :-)

My website says that i have two newfy bitches and one 10 month old Tibetan Mastiff puppy which i take it you Shaynlola like the council class as a breeding bitch but i don't!!, also the five year period that i am speaking of is have not has a litter for three years and will not be having any for another two ,so that will be a five year period.

Peanuts

also the five year period that i am speaking of is have not has a litter for three years and will not be having any for another two ,so that will be a five year period.

I would imagine that any five year period would count - so if a breeder had three litters between 2000 and 2005, say one in 2003,  and then  two in 2005, any subsequent litters up to and including 2010 would count towards the five litters. That is how I would read it anyway :) Not sure they would accept that  two litters in 2005 were a part of a previous 5 year period so didn't count. Just the way I would interpret that ruling :)

Just reread my post and realised that the rules are per year - not got my thinking head on today :)

> the council class as a breeding bitch

I think they have to because to another breeder, in two months time, she will be as far as the Breeding Act goes.

I understand what you are saying but , i had 1 litter in 2005 and i have one litter now , considering that i have has newfys for 14 years i don't class that as a business, 2 litters in 14 years, not sure if i will mate my other girl, i really did want something from her to show before she got to old, but if the council are going to class a 10 month old puppy as breeding bitch i may not have a choice but to get a licence.

Im sure some breeders on here have had more litters in that time scale than me , if so have they got a licence or does their council say that they should have one?

Peanuts

>My website says that i have two newfy bitches and one 10 month old Tibetan Mastiff puppy

ie. 3 bitches ;-)

>i take it you Shaynlola like the council class as a breeding bitch but i don't!!

What I think is neither here nor there (and for the record, I don'll class 10 months as breeding age).  However, your council would apparently consider your TM bitch to be a breeding bitch and it is therefore relevant to your original post.

Sorry Shaynlola , did not mean to be catty, i just meant 2 bitches of breeding age,  must admit though no-one seems to have answered my original question .

Has any breeder on here have a council breeders licence?

Peanuts

The laws are definately silly.  I had a breeders licence at my old house as it was the easiest way to keep the neighbours off my back.  They had massive problems with anyone keeping dogs let alone me with my 10 so with a council licence they couldnt object as I was regulated and could be inspected at any time.  I had 6 bitches and 4 dogs at the time with an age range from puppy to my on their last legs girls.  They even counted a 16 year old bitch as a breeding female at that council as she had only ever had 2 litters in her life and they went on litters not age.  My new council area doesnt work like that they say only dogs of an appropriate age are classed as breeding females.  I have talked to my new council and as I only have 3 breedable bitches I dont need a licence thankfully as I have only ever had 1 or 2 litters max a year in my whole dog breeding life.

As for the 4" rule that must be a new one as I own mini dachshunds and you have to make the entrance flat to the floor they can hardly even get on to the vet bed when they are tiny. :-D

Emma

How did being licensed help with neighbour complaints?

How did being licensed help with neighbour complaints?

Well everytime they complained the rspca had to investigate or someone from the council, so because my neighbours had a serious grudge this was every month.  The council actually suggested the licence as with the licence comes inspections every 6 - 12 months.  With that inspection document to hand the rspca no longer had the power to come on to my property if the document was current unless they had evidence other than hearsay that a dog was at risk (This is about 12 -13 years ago now, and the law has changed since).  So everytime they polled up if I had a litter and didnt want them to come in spreading germs then they couldnt.  Eventually both the council and the rspca had a note against my address stating that a neighbour dispute was taking place and that they have never found anything wrong.  I eventually had the neighbours done for harassment and they moved out before I move to my new address.  With no close neighbours.

Emma

so who actually has a licence?

I would have thought most of us here don't require one.

Are the council claiming that a "material change of use" has occurred? I have some experience in this area and may be of some help.

Suffice to say, there is no element of Planning Law that states the ownership of more than X pet dogs constitutes a material change of use, or that limits the number of dogs the occupier of a dwelling may own. Nor is there any enabling regulation that allows a Planning Authority to make such a decree in its area.

There is no element of planning law stating how many dogs may be kept before there is a Change of Use of a dwelling. Only a Court can ultimately decide that on "fact and degree" in each individual case.

As long as any breeding has been on a purely domestic basis and as a hobby and no commercial breeding takes place, the keeping/ breeding of pet dogs is absolutely incidental to the residential use as defined by Class E of the General Permitted Development Order:

"purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such" includes the keeping of poultry, bees, pet animals, birds or other livestock for the domestic needs or personal enjoyment of the occupants of the dwellinghouse".
.

peanuts, I'm a little miffed by this, haven't read everyones replies, just got as far as JG's and she quoted what she has found legally.

You say you had this phone call and the paperwork was dropped around, and now they want to visit your premises and inspect all dogs including your pups. I thought only the RSPCA inspected pups?

Anyhow my point is, are you sure these people are really the council, have you phoned the council to check at their offices that they are sending around officers, I'm just airing on the side of caution that this could also be some sort of hussle, sorry always suspicious especially when things don't sound right.

It could be that someone has complained and they don't believe you and wish to check everything out, but will you just for me check that this is really legit from a phone number you get through the yellow pages, not from the form you have been given.

Thanks,

**The scam worrier**  :-D

Carrington,

I had exactly the same thought and then told myself off for being so suspicious and cynical ;)

Now I'm back to believing I'm not necessarily wrong ;)

Peanuts,

You may also wish to speak to your local councillor about this ;)  it's surprising how they can get the local council officials to explain their actions and even amend their procedures - if this proves to be from your local council ;)

all i can say peanuts is THIS IS CRAZY ,i have 3 unspayed bitches and im not having any more litters but im damed if i will get a licence or get them spayed because thay say so ,what will thay do next to try and get more money from us ?

That is an interesting thought, Carrington, and worth checking out but I still don't understand this shock people have that a council might want to inspect when they feel there is reason to check the number of dogs there and perhaps determine is licencing is applicable.  Isn't that what we would want?  And would we not want that inspection to include puppies?  Why does it have to just be the RSPCA? Infact I am not sure that they would have as much powers to carry out an uninvited inspection as a council inspector might under the Breeding Act.  If inspections could never be carried out when puppies were on the premises some of the more commercial breeders might never get one!

I'd certainly want some sort of guarantee that the person doing the inspection had some sort of qualification (greater than mine!;)) about animal husbandry. :)

What qualifications would you ask for?  I looked up my local councils website and it states theirs is a fee plus the cost of vet inspections so it would appear they use either vets or vet trained inspectors.

That would be acceptable - I had images of some clerk, whose closest encounter with an animal was when he went to the zoo at the age of 6, from the Admin department being sent out with a clipboard!

They do seem to have the BVA guidelines :-)  I suppose it depends on how many licenced breeders in their patch or indeed how much interest they take on how much experience they have but I do think it is not something we should be against in principle and if we wouldn't accept it how can we demand that others do?

It is def the council, we have rung them at there office and spoken to the head man there.

Peanuts