I have thought the same as i dont think she looks like your typical cocker but they are all different. She does have a long nose and long legs but she is kc reg as a pure cocker and no there are no small dogs in the house and all other pups are growing fine. breeders were kc reg and well established. xx

>Those are American Cockers Kay

I realise that Isabel. but could not find as good a British site for Cockers.. Colours for both are similar and acceptable..  just that many people seeing the photo might question the colouring and purity, since we are used to seeing mostly standard colours. solids, roans etc..

Well since it is Isabel's own breed and I'm sure she has seen a lot more of young pups than me (they are generally 6+ months before I see any of them in number!)  it would appear my concerns re the purity of her breeding were unfounded :)   

I hope with the help of your vet that a reason for her suprisingly petite stature can be established and treatment, if required, commence soon.

best wishes,
Teri

Yes, there are more than many people realise.  There is a list of them on the Cocker Spaniel Club site with a few photographs.

I think she is black/white/tan....or black white ticked and tan, colouring is fine, she's just very dinky.

This site shows cockers of most colours: http://www.cockerworld.net/

> I'm sure she has seen a lot more of young pups than me

I have never seen one quite like this :-)  but I have seen some pretty light bones ones, not generally from reputable sources I have to say, but who can really say. Your thoughts could be equally valid.  It is certainly a strange little thing and it will be very interesting to find out if the vets can determine what has keep her so small.

That's my favourite site, having an American cocker myself! Yes tricolours are fine in English cockers too. Hope the vets find the problem! :-)

Has your vet tested her for Pituitary Dwarfism ? Perhaps they are not aware that it occurs in all breeds

however, could I ask if you're certain that she is in fact a pure bred Cocker Spaniel? 

Must admit Teri, looking at the pup it has crossed my mind. I agree with Isabel that Cockers come in all different shapes and sizes, colours and coat textures from curly to long feathering to short and a huge variation in colours.

Being very naughty here, I could think that she had Cav in her, it could account for the size and the colouring also, but I guess if parents were seen and there are no other dogs in the house, (and hopefully no Cav next door :-D) then she is just a wee little girl.

Checking the KC pedigree though are there a lot of close relatives being bred, a lot of father/grandfather matings? this can sometimes cause smaller and thinnner pups to come through if the best stock is not always used.

I would not just be giving any prefered puppy complete food, but also the meat of the day with rice......... chicken, white fish, lamb, beef, scrambled eggs, lots of good protein foods aswell for one of her meals, (have you tried raw chicken wings too?) even though she is tiny she will still be able to eat them.

She may well just be a very wee girl with a small bone structure.

As long as she is fit and healthy that is all that matters, she looks a very sweet little girl. :-)

> Being very naughty here, I could think that she had Cav in her

My very first thought when I saw her picture.
She would probably be more 'normal' sized for that mix.

hello again all thanks for your commitment to this topic my little cassie ,,, i have added some more pics from when she was with her brothers and sisters and then when we brought her home at 11 weeks ,,,, again commets are greatly recived and i now have a list to take to the vets

http://s394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/missmeaddavies/

Thats the link for the pics xxxx

Looking at her with her siblings and alongside her mum as a pup she looks absolutely normal, perhaps a little smaller than her siblings, but she does not look underweight, she looks like a normal healthy, cuddly puppy. Did you see a photo of the Dad? (Not that with Cockers the colour is always any indication of pups colourings) I was trying to look at the mum to see her teats, but I can't. Did you notice that her teats looked full or droopy, or at least used?

I admit that her colouring and size do make me think Cav, but looking at her with her siblings she looks all Cocker there, and part of the group, if a pup of different parentage is introduce into a litter a clear sign which I have noticed is often all the litter tend to pull the ears of an outsider not just in play with one another, the colouring is certainly not unusual, she looks well fed,  after the photo's I would sumize she is just a little girl that is all, she may have a growth spurt or she may just stay a very tiny girl.

She's gorgeous though, :-)

Ah but a litter can have different fathers if the mother mates with 2 dogs in a short space of time! Just to add that into the mix :-)

But yeah, cute!  Bloodwork needs to be done though for sure.

I LOVE Cockers when they have that shaggy hair on top of their head, it looks fantastic and so comical when their running around LOL
There is a gorgeous, and I mean gorgeous chocolate (My favourite Colour for cockers :) ) cocker boy called 'Billy' and he has a blonde shaggy bit on top of his head and he looks just fab lol!! :)

and then when we brought her home at 11 weeks

Can I just pick up on this point.

Do you mean that these are photo's of her in your home at 11 weeks of age? (If so read no further. )

Or do you mean this is her when you collected her at 11 weeks from the breeder and brought her home?

If it is the latter, why was she collected at 11 weeks? Fine if for personal reasons the breeder was keeping her longer, done that myself :-)  but were all the litter let go at 11 weeks?  A Cocker pups should be in it's new home for approx 8 weeks for the next chapter of it's socialising window.

So working on this point, (though I can't honestly see that a breeder or owner could mix up the dates) is it possible that she was 8 weeks when you brought her home, have you checked her DOB on her pedigree and KC transfer of ownership?

Just a thought. :-)

>is it possible that she was 8 weeks when you brought her home

When did she start changing her teeth?

Me again hope your all haveing a fab day.
sorry i didnt make clear the other adult cocker in the pics is NOT her mum thats my other dog Molly.

The pictures of cassie and rest of litter were taken at the breeders house, the others were at my house when i brought her from the breeder i was told she was 8 weeks old, it was only when i got the paper work from the kc i saw her birtdate and it made her 11 weeks i called the breeder and she apoligised for the mistake but said the paper work was correct, there for she was 11 weeks when i got her, and 5 months now.
I didnt see the mums teets and didnt see parents with puppys they were in a different room, cassies colour is like the mums she was also try colour but mostly black.

Sorry hope this makes things clearer xxxxxxxxx

Sorry didnt put that all the ltter was there for let go at 11 weeks, as she thought they were 8 weeks, but it ment cassie had her jabs late as when i got her she hadent had them done was also over due her worming.. but all up to date now xx

Ok I don't want to worry you, but I would know when my litter was born.  So if the breeder originally said she was 8 weeks then I would go with that - she couldn't possibly get the birthdate wrong by 3 weeks.  The paperwork may be wrong for a reason, eg forged or photocopied.  Did the breeder have 2 litters at the same time?  It is very very odd for a breeder to be confused like that.
ETA the birthdate could have been changed so that the litter could be registered as it is possible the mum had a litter just shy of a year earlier.  The KC will not accept more than one litter registration from the mum in a 12 month period.

>The KC will not accept more than one litter registration from the mum in a 12 month period.

They will as long as the breeder isn't a licenced breeder. But I agree - no breeder is as far out with the dates as that!

Missmead - you didn't say how long ago she started changing her teeth?

The KC will not accept more than one litter registration from the mum in a 12 month period.

Yes they will. That only applies to licensed breeders.

Really??? I've taken that wrong then as I assumed it was to cut down on females being used on back to back seasons.  I know for certain that my own female's seasons were exactly 6 months apart so took it from that.  But either way, something dodgy going on with that breeder!

ETA the birthdate could have been changed so that the litter could be registered as it is possible the mum had a litter just shy of a year earlier.

Makes perfect sense Granitecitygirl, trouble is this breeder made the pup older on paper, not younger so would not match in with a bitch being mated before 12 months of age.

I think it is more probable as you've suggested that this pup belongs to a younger litter completely (maybe even a cross?) and has been passed off as the same litter as the 11 week olds, it would conincide with her being smaller. Obviously some sort of duping going on somewhere.

I didn't wish to worry you at the time missmead but when you mentioned that the grandmother was 10kg that sent alarm bells ringing as what kind of breeder would breed from a small show cocker like that and use one of the pups as showing/breeding stock, the idea is to get as close to the breed standard as poss, not use stock below the size of a breed standard.

Not seeing pups with parent/parents, not recieving paperwork at time of purchase, all sounds very fishy and are not what a good breeder does, and not knowing the date of birth........... well, what can I say, never heard of that one!

By all means you can go down the DNA route to find out who the parents are and find out if they are the parents written on the KC registration, but it will cost, and to be honest you now have your pup whom I'm sure that you love.

I would just try to get your vet to clarify the age of your puppy for you.

I'm sorry Missmead, but I really don't believe that any breeder would get the ages of their litters mixed up by that much, and think that their pups were only eight weeks old when they were actually eleven weeks. That is a big difference. The breeder may be inexperienced, but that is even more reason why they should be taking extra care with dates etc, to make sure that the pups are wormed, vet checked and socialised.

I suspect that for some reason the breeder wanted to keep the litter on for a few weeks - were they keeping one of the litter themselves, maybe to show? And then they thought that eight week old pups would be easier to sell and so told a bit of a fib.

I don't think it's a disaster, and you may just need to put in some extra work socialising the puppy, but I would take anything else the breeder says with a pinch of salt.

>didnt see parents with puppys they were in a different room

Was your girl the last pup, and mum was in another room, or do you mean mum and the rest of the litter were in another room and you were not able to see them?

sorry if this has been picked up on,,, I have been keeping up with this, but only skim read the last few responses...

> By all means you can go down the DNA route to find out who the parents are and find out if they are the parents written on the KC registration, but it will cost

I wonder what the charges are when you challenge a pedigree through the KC?

> I suspect that for some reason the breeder wanted to keep the litter on for a few weeks - were they keeping one of the litter themselves, maybe to show? And then they thought that eight week old pups would be easier to sell and so told a bit of a fib.
>
>

Not very likely really - show breeders will generally pick out one or two puppies with potential and keep them longer but the rest of the litter will go to their new homes at 8 weeks as normal. There's also not usually any difficulty in finding homes for slightly older pups if you're a reputable breeder so there would be no point in lying. From the photos Hayley has posted, I wouldn't say the breeder is a show breeder anyway - you can count the number of show breeders who have tricolours on one hand.

Whilst not discounting the issue of whether the breeder is cheating or not, surely the main issue here is that a puppy of this age has barely grown in 10 weeks since she came to her new home? Surely that takes it into the realms of health issues, immaterial of parentage?

Having known of a dog with similar issues, I have to say my first worry was a liver shunt, which somebody mentioned before.

M.

To Carrington, yup you are right.  Sorry but my mathematical brain was evidently not working then :-) 

Hello again,

This is all very puzzling and im glad i have such help and support, i dont know why the pups were older than she said i woundered if it was because she didnt want to pay for there jabs etc, When i went to visit on two occasions all the puppys were together in one room and adults were in another room. money is beside the point but i paid £600 and was given the stuff i had to send away for my kc paper work which when i recived  i saw the dates were differnt i called the breeder who just said wow sorry i didnt realise hasnt time flown.. she said dates on kc paper were correct as litter was born day after her sons birthday thats how she remembered the date.
By the time i went back to pick cassie up few days after first viewing the other puppys had gone to there new homes.

they didnt keep any from that litter as already have lots of cockers.

cassie has been losing her teeth the last few days ?? is this timing right for her age ??

im not supprised people have said about her being a cross as i have thought so too but not sure about a cav, ok the colour but i think cassie has a long nose and you cant see very well in pics but also has long bandy legs xxx

not sure if i have answered all the point put across do feel free to ask again if i missed anything.

>cassie has been losing her teeth the last few days ?? is this timing right for her age ??

Puppies usually start changing their teeth at about 3½ to 4 months of age, with the change pretty much complete by 6 months. This suggests that she could actually be younger than you believe, and that you've been given the wrong paperwork.

first noticed her first ones missing about 4 months but today found to big ones xx

Google of the affix doesn't bring up any show results that I can find.

>> cassie has been losing her teeth the last few days ?? is this timing right for her age ??
> Puppies usually start changing their teeth at about 3½ to 4 months of age, with the change pretty much complete by 6 months. This suggests that she could actually be younger than you believe, and that you've been given the wrong paperwork.

Not necessarily - our Cockers generally don't start teething until 4 months and can still be losing teeth at 5 months. Also this puppy is obviously not as well developed as most 5 month old Cocker pups, so it seems logical that she may be slower teething than more mature puppies.

I think some are getting the impression that this breeder is a dealer or some sort of puppy farmer but based on litters registered, this seems to be someone having one or two litters a year from their pet Cockers (they do not show). They do not own any other breeds as far as I can tell and I think Hayley is right to speculate that not wanting to pay for vaccinations may perhaps have been the motive for saying her pup was younger than she was. Obviously whatever the reasons, making this kind of mistake (whether deliberate or not) is not what anyone would expect from a good breeder but surely the most important thing is to find out what, if anything, could be causing Cassie's lack of growth & hopefully Hayley will have some answers soon from her vet.

That is cassies litter, cassies pic was on there before but was taken off when i brought her the remainding pic is of her brother that was taken back when the new owners said she was deaf, again breeder said she was fine xxx

thanks for post i think the same and its the vets tommrrow so hoping for some answers. xxxxxxxx

sorry turns out i shouldnt have put breeders site up naughty me i just wanted you to see parents so big sorry i didnt realise xxxxxxx

I know that the pups size and worry of a hidden problem is the main focus of this post, but a pups well being and health can come down to the breeder and stock chosen to breed from, all care and health tests need to be taken into account.  I pray that this little pup has nothing wrong with her, but if she does then your vet needs to assess whether the breeder could have avoided this and may be accountable for any problems and you will need to inform the KC. (No point in the breed club as they don't show)

Brother returned because owner thinks he is deaf? Wow, not exactly a great testamonial.

Breeder accidently keeps her pups for an extra 3 weeks? Dates do not match up? When Op questioned it i called the breeder who just said wow sorry i didnt realise hasnt time flown OK! Doh!

Worming not kept up to date?

Re:  The comments on reasons for this pup being sold as an 8 week old and then receiving paperwork for an 11 week old. I have never, ever heard of a breeder saying that their pups are 3 weeks younger to avoid them having to do innoculation, why would anyone do that? (Surely the breeder would just sell them at 8 weeks?   Most breeders don't innoculate now anyway due to the different vaccines that vets use, myself included, it did not affect my pups being sold at all, it is no excuse to keep pups on for an extra 3 weeks, sorry but I find that quite laughable that anyone could think that a reason. All of us who breed know that by 8 weeks that pups can be very fractous, noisy and are ready for their new homes, you can't forget how old they are.

From the information given this pup was sold with faulse statement of age from the breeder.

Pups need weighing and worming (depending on wormer) every two weeks, our OP states that the worming was also behind, again a sign of someone who breeds badly, with other bitches and breeding twice a year from pet Cockers, this can not be blamed on a new breeder not knowing what they are doing, so I can only pressume they just don't do things properly, worms can kill a pup as any breeder knows. Hopefully your vet missmead has given you the appropriate wormers for her.

Websites are nothing but dressage, they can be glossed up as much as you like, they do not spell quality or knowledge, or honesty.

If I were you missmead, I would log down everything that you have been told especially the faulsities.

Let us know how your little girl is doing and how her results came back. :-)

> Re:  The comments on reasons for this pup being sold as an 8 week old and then receiving paperwork for an 11 week old. I have never, ever heard of a breeder saying that their pups are 3 weeks younger to avoid them having to do innoculation, why would anyone do that? (Surely the breeder would just sell them at 8 weeks?   Most breeders don't innoculate now anyway due to the different vaccines that vets use, myself included, it did not affect my pups being sold at all, it is no excuse to keep pups on for an extra 3 weeks, sorry but I find that quite laughable that anyone could think that a reason. All of us who breed know that by 8 weeks that pups can be very fractous, noisy and are ready for their new homes, you can't forget how old they are.
>

I think you're perhaps missing the point that this breeder may not have wanted to keep the pups until they were 11 weeks old - puppy sales have been slow this year as in Cockers at least, the supply of puppies seems to be exceeding demand. If you're faced with older pups that have not sold then I can quite see why this kind of breeder might have pretended the pups were younger than they are as most buyers would not expect an 8 week old pup to be vaccinated but they could well wonder why an older pup had not been. I certainly would vaccinate any of my pups kept over the age of 9 weeks (even if that is not what you yourself would do).

I certainly would vaccinate any of my pups kept over the age of 9 weeks (even if that is not what you yourself would do).


Of course I would vaccinate any pup I was keeping over 8 weeks of age and have done, as I would perceive any good breeder on this board would do, that is all part of breeding and the pitfalls of being left with a pup for whatever reason.  But, how anyone can condone lying I really do not understand, (if in fact this is the reason) I certainly would not be making any excuses for it, a liar is a liar. The truth is on the KC registration so why lie?

Many have had to sell a pup after 8 weeks due to drop outs etc, I've not heard of any of them telling lies about the puppies ages. This is a underhand way of breeding and quite frankly treating the public like idiots and if the breeder lied due to these reasons (though it is only one reason to lie, there may well be other reasons) then I know exactly what I think of breeders like this and my estimation of them is no better than that of the puppyfarmers. I'm sure that the KC would be disgusted by it too, and to be honest I would be reporting it to them, after all they are trying to weed out breeders like this.

There is no excuse to lie about a puppies age, a breeder should be someone you trust and have a long relationship with, how is that possible with this breeder.  I certainly would never buy a pup from a person like this.

The truth is on the KC registration so why lie?

Money!  I've heard from others, though it's not been my experience, that there are some people who want an 8 week old cute fluffy puppy and wouldn't even come to view once they are past that age.  But of course once the prospective buyer sees the puppy, yhen as all pups are ovely, the sale is made. :(

People who produce puppies to sell have a very different way of thinking to ethical dog breeders. :)

> Of course I would vaccinate any pup I was keeping over 8 weeks of age and have done, as I would perceive any good breeder on this board would do, that is all part of breeding and the pitfalls of being left with a pup for whatever reason.  But, how anyone can condone lying I really do not understand, (if in fact this is the reason) I certainly would not be making any excuses for it, a liar is a liar. The truth is on the KC registration so why lie?
>

Nobody's condoning it so not sure where you've got that from? Understanding how some breeders operate does NOT mean condoning. You must live in a very sheltered world if you don't realise that breeders (obviously not good breeders) do fib if it makes them a sale - they know that once a pup is in it's new home, most owners will not be bringing it back even if they later discover that something is not as the breeder says it was.

>There is no excuse to lie about a puppies age, a breeder should be someone you trust and have a long relationship with, how is that possible with this breeder.  I certainly would never buy a pup from a person like this.

Obviously but we don't live in a perfect world and there are for more breeders like this one than there are good ones, especially in a numerically popular breed like Cockers where BYBs and puppy farmers flourish

I agree with Carrington completely. For a breeder to get their dates out by three weeks then to my mind they either (a) lied about the age to get a sale; (b) were careless and forgot, which suggests that they may have "forgotten" other things; or (c) they didn't think it was important. Any of these three would set alarm bells ringing about the care that was taken over a litter where it seems one pup may be undersized, and another was returned for being deaf.

The important thing is the puppy's health and I think Missmead has done the right thing it taking her to the vet. Hopefully they will find nothing wrong and she's just a wee one, but if there is a problem then the vets can help her to manage it. I'm sure everything will turn out all right. However, it's important that Missmead can explain to the vet the circumstances surrounding how the pup got to where it is now and hopefully this thread has given her some ideas to think about.

I don't think it's possible to separate the issues of a breeder who is careless/forgetful/dishonest and the health of their pups.

>I agree with Carrington completely. For a breeder to get their dates out by three weeks then to my mind they either (a) lied about the age to get a sale; (b) were careless and forgot, which suggests that they may have "forgotten" other things; or (c) they didn't think it was important. Any of these three would set alarm bells ringing about the care that was taken over a litter where it seems one pup may be undersized, and another was returned for being deaf.
>

That's not in dispute Mark - we're all saying the same here ;-)

As you say the important thing is Cassie's health and Hayley has been given the info she needs to pass on to her vet when she does consult him/her.

Thanks again for all the great info, help and support i have just got back from the vets,

I went armed with a massive list of things you have advised me on, she listen and has taken full bloods, i also have to take a urin sample in.

Cassie food was changed to hills on monday and in 2 days she has gone from 3.8 to 4.4 vet is not sure why of the dramanttic change and says they does seem to be some medical isssues to slove.

Since Cassie started the hills her water in take has doubled and this is something else the vet has asked me to check,

Blood test is back on monday so fingers crossed for then xxx