dont you think that it could be intresting to see/know what he produces on other bitches .. ?
see what the healthresults are when used to other lines .other bitches then your own?
i think the more you know about a dog, the better  idea you get of what he realy produces!
and when  saying " used " a lot"  i siad that because in one of the replies it already seemed to be a lot when a studdogowner uses his dog more then two times ..

>i siad that because in one of the replies it already seemed to be a lot when a studdogowner uses his dog more then two times ..

Which country is it that has a limit to the number of puppies a dog or bitch can produce? I've heard of one example where Springer Spaniels in that country can only have 18 descendents, to prevent overuse of any sire or dam.

Most breeders only have a few bitches - maybe two or three - so a resident stud dog wouldn't get a lot of use there!

in finland and also here in france and in holland we have strict rules about how many litters, how many puppies one can breed per year! a good thing .. !
no more then 4 litters, no more then one litter per year per bitch .. they need to be 2 years old before having etc .. and each breed has its own rules ..
dogs need to be confirmed, pass a temperament test etc .; different countries, different rules .. but i believe it is  a good thing for the breed!
those kennels who produce more then 20 puppies a year are  checked  a few times a year by vet, pay tax etc ..but those kennels are professionel kennels,with several breeds, large  numbers of dogs etc
sure we have the what you call BYB and puppyfarms too, but not so extreme ..
we are kept to contracts signed by seller/buyer where  on takes responsability healthwise etc for the puppy you sell/buy.
all according to the law.

I have inadvertantly become the owner of a male ( I don't keep males as a rule but this one was a singleton and rather special) but it is hugely unlikely that I will ever use him myself.
His Sire is the product of 6 or so generations of champions in almost direct line, his mum has a RCC despite only been shown 4 or 5 times.On the handful of times this young dog has been shown he's won big time, but he is not a suitable mate for a single one of my bitches at present no matter - how lovely - how well bred - healthy - successful he is. There are more suitable dogs out there for my girls but he may be suitable for other breeders who want his qualities.

Just because I own him doesn't mean I should use him.

And may I say Parzac that although many posters have repeated that  imported dogs and other genetically important dogs may be a special case you seem not to be able to read this.

to be honest i'd go for the first. heavy use is not indicative of quality. if a stud owner did not use their boy on their bitches it could be for a myriad of reasons- close relation, similar faults, bitches have not passed health testing or simply they feel they don't suit. not using a dog on your own bitches is not a mark of lack of faith, it is perhaps an indication of knowledge of lines and the potential progeny

>in finland and also here in france and in holland we have strict rules about how many litters, how many puppies one can breed per year! a good thing .. !

Yes - but I was referring to a regulation where a dog could only produce 18 offspring in his entire lifetime! That's about 3, maybe 4 litters ...

> Yes - but I was referring to a regulation where a dog could only produce 18 offspring in his entire lifetime! That's about 3, maybe 4 litters ...

not many is it? 18 pups is very few in some breeds...the litter my eldest girl came from had 12. doesn't leave much room to manouver.

and as such if a breeder has faith in there dog why, as it were, 'practise' litters to see what he throws? all breedings a gamble, you can never be sure what you'll get but you pick a bitch and stud to try and produce a certain thing.

(i think that was your point jg?)

then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??
and if bred yourself ... if not able to use him .. sell him or place him  with someone who can use him .. and then maybe keep access to him when ever having a bitch suitable .. you can keep a good eye on him .; make sure all the scores are done, you can show him  .. train him ...or  leave that all to the owner/coOwner
well i just stop .. as we dont agree on this topic
just a shame that most of you think that keeping both parents( studdogs/bitches) on the same premisis could be a sign/warning for BYB.
lets just agree we disagree on that!

>(i think that was your point jg?)

Sort of ... I just don't see the relevance of how often a dog is used as to how useful a stud dog he is. A single, carefully-planned litter could be all that he need ever do to better his breed. 'Practice' litters (or 'trial matings'), just to see what happens, are usually too random to be of much use.

>then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??
>and if bred yourself ... if not able to use him .. sell him or place him  with someone who can use him

You keep the dog because you want to, just as you keep a bitch because you want to. The same people can use him whoever owns him - they just come and use him at your premises rather than anyone else's.

If you sell him to anyone, they would probably only have one bitch suitable for him, and so would only get the one litter from him (no point in repeating matings), so they'd then be in exactly the same position as you would be.

> then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??

buy him in the hope that things will work out. say you research his lines with the hope of breeding to a bitch (eventually) who is still a youngster. later you do her health tests and her hips are rubbish- do you give him or her away? ditto his hips or other tests.

or// buy him in the hope of introducing a new line and plan a litter along with another breeder to have a pup not a stud fee.

or// get a dog because you want a dog, discover he's a champ and that people want studs. goodness, alright then.

it is a reasonable warning as many byb's do, but as i said earlier with the proviso that you ask why this mating (which frankly i feel should be asked of any mating)- if the answers i deliberately picked his lines, i feel he compliments her in the following ways..., fine, great, i would like a puppy please, if its "well...i had rex here and then i got poochy and i thought the kids should see 'the beauty of birth' and i figured every bitch should have a litter really and of course i can make money from it..." then thats the stage you leg it.

nothing is an absolute, there are good breeders who use their own studs, there are bad who do.

> are usually too random to be of much use.

true, and you never know what he'll throw with another bitch, all you know is he's fertile.

then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??
and if bred yourself ... if not able to use him .. sell him or place him  with someone who can use him

That's exactly what I do with the best quality dog in each litter - place him with another exhibitor.  If he matures in the way that I hope then later down the line when I have, perhaps his granddaughter who may need his qualities, then I could choose to use him IF I thought he was the best possible mate for that bitch.

Unless a breeder has bitches with a variety of lines and they are in favour of outcrossing, one dog is rarely able to suit a number of them before you even start looking at their virtues and faults.

well there we agree then! i do that too!  and because i dont see the point in keeping lots and lotsof dogs i do same with bitches i would have kept myself.. my oldies have the oldest rights here ..and we keep all in house , and as all deserve all the attention needed to grow up and be able to get all the chances to be trained/shown etc  best then to place with a  breeder/owner who can give all her time and have same ideas in raising  dogs as we do!
i place a bitch .. NO id ont take her back to breed from her .. just place her and then lateron when all is okay healthwise etc .. i have a puppy back from a combination we both agree on .; this way able to again continue lines, types, temperaments i go for!

hi parzac, i agree with you and i can understand how you feel  i feel offended by some remarks of owning your own stud, i know for a fact that potential puppy buyers look on this forum as i have had phone calls regarding this owning your own stud dog caper and it would seem that some would just like to put you in the  same catergory as b.y.b ,i am not breeding at the moment and shant be for at least 2 years our last litters were 8 and 6 years ago, the dam to these litters is still living in her loving home with her family and at 10.5 years old full of beans and as healthy as she ever was, we are still in contact with  most of her puppies and see them quite regulary they are just as beautiful and as healthy as there parents,all our dogs have all the necessary tests done if we are breeding from them or not so as to know in advance and prepare them if they do have any problems we are fortunate to say that none of our dogs have had problems,I have booked  one of my bitches in to be mated with a stud dog in about 18 months time i have gone through everything with the breeder regarding her dog and the compatability of the mating and its all good ,i have also booked a male puppy from another breeder to eventually use on one of my girls and i have to wait for 2 years at least wich i dont mind waiting, so does this make me a b.y.b as i intend to keep him as a potential stud, i know my last puppy owners dont think anything of the sort. and when i go and look at litters i can assure you there are plenty of other points that would be picked up upon regarding there genuinity as breeders long before them owning there own stud, as i have already said some where else on these posts i am one that prefers that both parents are owned,if you have a good reputation as a breeder you have it no matter how many studs you have. as long as your breeding programme sits right, i prefer the males in my breed for different reasons but thats a different story,we used our boy twice on our original bitch the second time we were going to use another dog that looked fantastic  and in par with our own dog on paper and in pics, when the time came and several hours driving to meet him i was not to happy he just did not have the temperment we wanted  i was so dissapointed but he just did not cut the mustard, so we used our boy again, and got exactly what we wanted. i still dont understand what all this is about breeders owning there own stud to save money as if everything is done correctly you are still 100,out of pocket,i for one would rather no the stud dog like the back of my hand as to pass on information to the potential puppy owners not just ped papers and pics, it may not be conveiniant for new puppy owners to travel 1oo.s of miles to see the sire, and at the end of the day using another stud dog how much do you know this dog how many times has it been mated? has it been over used has it any deceases i know who  my dog has been with and how many times my doghas been used, plus the fact it could be very stressful for a maiden bitch to have to travel 100s of miles to a stud dog that she does not know from adam, my two were soul mates and my dog new my bitch from the time she was eight weeks old i like to consider things like this, and i would rather be in the position and my puppy owners to be in the position of seeing both parents as much as they wished too, and have that bond so in time if they decided to breed they would have endless information to tell there puppy owners regarding the pups family and this would be first hand.i could go on for ever about this but i am not going to  all i am saying is that anyone looking for a puppy on this forum  do not be put off by some of the remarks on here regarding the breeders owning there own stud dogs there are breeders and there are breeders! do your homework on every aspect, i think some of these posts could ruin some breeders integrity if its not careful and they do not deserve it,as some new owners may steer clear of genuine breeders because they own there own stud because of what they have read shouldnt we all be cosentrating on the real vile culprits out there and dishing them you know the ones that dont even have the parents. thankyou for reading m.o.

> then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??

Because I love him.

Can you think of a better reason?

Molly,
May I politely ask you to paragraph your posts.
It is extemely difficult to read continuous text.

thanks for this! i thought i was talking to walls!
i have had all the years of my breeding studdogs, they are kept together with bitches, all these years NOT EVEN one puppybuyer or  friend/breeder etc has ever seen me as a sort of BYB!
they were all, still are ever so glad and happy to see the parents, the grandparents and sometimes even thegreatgrandpatents, the uncle, the  brother of their puppy as they can see what their puppy will grow up to!  i think, just like you molly, that is indeed best to know the dog you use .. you can advice, tell others about his strong and les strong points when using him: OUT OF EXPERIENCE! but no .. this is NOT to be done ... as far as most of the forum replies on this topic!
i plan ahead,  using dogs from myself . or dogs related to my own ....
people can come and visit, see them, cuddle them ...  whats wrong  about that?
but like said ..  agree to disagree ..    

I don't know why you seem to be taking it so  personaly,all we've said is that it can be a sign of a BYB and puppy buyers should be aware of that and ask questions.I'm sure if the answers are as good as yours it won't be an issue but they do need to know the pit falls as alot of breeders do use both parents out of convenience or ignorance,no one has said it's a blanket statement except you.

>> then why keep/buy the dog in the first place ??

>Because I love him.
>Can you think of a better reason?

Nope.

>ever so glad and happy to see the parents, the grandparents and sometimes even thegreatgrandpatents, the uncle, the  brother of their puppy

All these dogs, parzac - how do you fit them all into your home? Or are you a commercial breeder whose dogs live in kennels?

It would seem that a couple of posters have gone off on a defensive track all of their own .......for what ever reason but

I clearly said in my first few posts ...

> Yes you did mis- interpret my reply. I clearly said " which can smack of BYB.."
> I was talking of the common themes of adverts for 'farmed' puppies'

Notice the word CAN
If this has affected you deeply then I can offer no explanation for it ......just...sorry.

> ever so glad and happy to see the parents, the grandparents and sometimes even thegreatgrandpatents, the uncle, the  brother of their puppy
> All these dogs, parzac - how do you fit them all into your home? Or are you a commercial breeder

Perhaps he has a big house?  Although looking a the picture I know that it is quite normal for labrador breeders which is what his breed looks like in the photo to keep a larger number of dogs as being a working breed they tend to be kenneled.

Apologies to parzac if your dog is not a lab my eyes arent what they used to be :)

a big house in france,  in the country with 19 hectare of land, dogs trained for gun, dogs goinf to shows etc .. BUT i dont need to justify myself, nor do i have to prove myself! 38 years of breeding Labradors, still with lots of succes in field, show  all OVER THE WORLD ! and the way you reply to topics tell more about you then about me
maybe  some of you should learn  not to judge a book by its cover !
respect doesnot cost a penny, being kind doesnot cost a penny .. and indeed the way these replies are turning into are now taken personel!
ever been in a house where 15 dogs walk in and out, sleep on couch, in their bed in a little office,  in  their beds in the kitchen or outside ( here lots of sun so most of our days spend outside in garden) in "deckchairs" etc .. then come and feel free to visit my house!
but for the time being .... stop accusing me of being a puppyfarmer/commercial breeder if you dont know me & my dogs
by the way: i am female,  close to 60.

sorry i see what you mean just trying to get used to the site, thanks for the reminder.

jeangenie, is there really a need for nastyness?  do you really beileve that comercial breeders puppy farmers or mills would spend  the time  really spend there time on this forum?    theres me thinking time was money to these people.

do you really beileve that comercial breeders puppy farmers or mills would spend  the time  really spend there time on this forum?

Most certainly.  There have certainly been backyard puppy producers here before and I'm sure there will be again.  They pick up knowledge that can save/earn them money. :(  That's why most threads emphasise the importance of ethical and knowledgable breeding and not just mating a dog and bitch with the same breed pedigrees together.

parzac, i think you should calm down. no ones accusing you of being a byb, just part of the advise that is often given out is that ownership of dam and sire can- not does, but can- suggest a byb. you clearly are not as you can give good and sensible reasons for using your studs to whatever bitch.

no one is being personal about it except you. please take the posts as they are intended, as a discussion, not a slagging.

btw, is the offer to come visit still open? sunshine, dogs and 19 hectares sounds pretty nice :)

still open!
we have the best food ever here in charente,  we live close to bordeaux, cognac .. the best wines .. good fish, atlantic ocean 
quite a few breeders from UK have settled down here!  people are more relaxed towards dogs etc! just the way of living the good life
only one thing to keep in mind: i have a rescue for retrievers, rescue for cats and very often in the field horses to be find saved from butcher waiting for their new home .. so sitting in the sunshine .. fine ;. but i guess  helping a bit with working in the sunshine will be much more likely!

> do you really believe that commercial breeders puppy farmers or mills would spend  the time  really spend there time on this forum?    theres me thinking time was money to these people.

No-one is accusing anyone.

The kind of breeders refereed to that use their own dogs or a Friends round the corner because it is easy are those who are breeding purely for the Pet market, and are using being able to see both parents as a selling point.

These may be Pet owners themselves with one dog and bitch or a couple of bitches, or out and out Puppy Farmers.

The breeders that tend not to use their own dogs  are in this position as most breeders these days in the UK can only keep a small number of dogs, say one line, which means unless they really wanted to own a male for the fun of it, do not keep a male to breed with themselves as she will be too related to their bitches, or if suitable for their own bitch only the once, but if the dog is good other breeders will seek him out.

As for puppy buyers being able to see the pups ancestors I think they can get as much of a feel for the temperaments etc by seeing Mum Grandmother half sister great grandma etc, without having to see Dad, who they can see by arrangement or be happy with photos etc.

" and at the end of the day using another stud dog how much do you know this dog how many times has it been mated? has it been over used has it any decease."

These questions a breeder will know the answers to when researching a stud dog.  they will have seen him at shows or working (if overseas then trusted Friend will have done this), will have seen the offspring, know his and their health status etc.

I have gotten to know every male I have used, except the overseas one, but I made sure I was more than happy with his character before using him, and was very pleased when he was more interested initially in making Friends with me rather than my girl ;)

The calibre of breeder like Parzac who has a reputation in their breed and the field is not trying to sell pets to gullible public but will mainly be dealing with buyers who know what they are looking for, and have searched this breeder out for the quality of their stock.

Thankyou brainless for clearing that up i do apologise for over reacting and if i maybe misread what was said, but i was defending myself and my dogs past/present/ and future, and i am sorry if i have upset anyone but i am not a b.y.b my dogs welfare come first that goes without saying i have not had a breeding programme for over 6 years now and if and when i do breed that shant be for at least another 2 years. so infact i am no type of breeder, i have worked really hard with my dogs and to make sure everything is done by the book i do prefer the males in my breed and i miss the ones that have gone to the bridge terribly, when i did have a litter  i made sure i put myself out to get it right yes i did own the father but him and the mother were not related at all and i did not keep any of the puppies incase there were any mating accidents even though i wanted to keep a puppy i had to let her go circumstances then were much different to what they are here regarding  being able to seperate  the dogs if need be.I do understand every ones feelings regarding undesirable breeders as i feel the same and they do give the good decent breeders a bad name and i understand breeding practices if all sits right in the programe.if your a good breeder there is no harm in keeping a stud dog as you say maybe to only use him once or twice on your girl or girls if everything ,  complements etc and that is what i done. i have booked a stud dog for one of my girls in about 18 months -two years, if everything else goes well i can see this dog as many times as i want and i shall build up a relationship with him over that time he shall be introduced to us before he meets our girl obviously, and shall be introduced to our girl before she is in season if we decide to go ahead with the mating everything on paper looks great.thankyou for your reply p.s i dont know why you have quoted parzac to me i have not said any thing different re parzac.

My reply was simply at the end of the thread.