Just a quick question really to all the breeders out there, or anyone who has been approched by the council to get a licence.
I would like to know what are the rules in your area?

We had a phonecall two weeks ago from our council saying that as we had dogs they needed to know what we had and if we bred.
We told them the dogs that we have here and that we would be having two litters at the end of this year, we were told that we needed a licence.
we told them that we don't mind getting a licence if that is what the law calls for, but we thought that i was for 5 litters or more per 12 months and these will be our only two litters for three years and that we would not be having anymore for at least another two years.
Well it's not just your litters it's the rest of your dogs as well( she said ) if you have females between 9 months and 8 years they are all classed as breeding bitches if they are not spayed.
I said to her 9 months she said yes 9 months old is classed as a breeding bitch,  she said even if you have not had a litter or having a litter , if you have bitches at home between these ages they are classed as breeding bitches and by law you must have a licence.
she has dropped of the paperwork for me to have a look at , and there in black and white it states that a breeding bitch is a bitch of 9 months old to 8 years old and if you own two or more you must have a council breeding licence, even if you do not breed.
I was gobsmacked.

Then this morning they phoned again to see if they can come and inspect the premises, i said fine but one of my bitches has had pups and they are only 1 week old and no-one can go in there because of germs as they have been to other litters and premises the same day i do not want to take that chance.
She told me that all my dogs needed to be seen  and that 1 week old puppies are no exception, so i told her fine , i would like you and your collegue to de-robe be scrubbed from head to foot in parvocide and then you can view them naked.
Funny thing is she thinks i'm joking!!

Peanuts

Our local council makes you jump through hoops if you are applying for a licence, they start to treat you like a commercial boarding kennels and you need to meet the stipulations that they lay down, funny how none of the local breeders I know have a licence, not even the dog warden who has a nice show kwnnel and a few brood bitches.

See if you can get hold of some paper overalls for the viewers and make them sign a disclaimer that if the bitch takes fright, kills the litter, litter dies due to infection etc,  that they will take full responsibility for this.  Not unreasonable to demand this I am sure a farmer would with his pedigree stock.

Interesting. I had thought the law had changed . Not now counting how many bitches you owned, purely how many litters were bred ,over 4 definately needing a license. Under 4 litters could still need a licence if the council deemed you commercial . As money is tight it wouldn't surprise me if more councils try to rake in a bit extra making anyone breeding pay a fee!

> See if you can get hold of some paper overalls for the viewers and make them sign a disclaimer that if the bitch takes fright, kills the litter, litter dies due to infection etc,  that they will take full responsibility for this.  Not unreasonable to demand this I am sure a farmer would with his pedigree stock.

Good idea!! I think you should do this, i think they are a bit out of order to be honest setting demands like that with your litter... but what can you do when its the council, except take precautions like you are going to!! Good on you!! :)

I would get a copy of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs welfare Act which states bitches have to be at least a year.

Also it says the number of litters not the number of entire bitches owned, so that could be challenged.

they can still insist on a License as they have a catch all bit in the act something like anyone breeding five or more litters, or anyone breeding as a business, so you should be able to challenge on that score.

I would consult a solicitor who understands dog law.

It could be the council's byelaw, but the council cannot make you apply for a Breeder's License if you do not breed any litters. The Breeder's License is just that a License for people who Breed

i would like you and your collegue to de-robe be scrubbed from head to foot in parvocide and then you can view them naked. Funny thing is she thinks i'm joking

Oh Please make them do that!!!!!!! :) :) :)

They cant come in if it risks the lives of puppies, I would tell them where to go and also get them to have the correct age for breeding a bitch to begin with which is 2 yrs!!
If they keep blabbing that its 9 months all those potential BYB are gonna jump in when their own homes are inspected espcially if they have to pay for a license for owning dogs and they dont even breed........yet but no doubt they will deffo start breeding unwanted litters I reckon to make their money back from this silly license rule
:( :(

rightly or wrongly a bitch of 9 months is capable of having puppies therefore to class her as a breeding bitch would not be incorrect.

Cant find one for my council but the one next to it states :_
Dog Breeding

Any person keeping a breeding establishment for dogs is required to hold a Licence issued by the Local Authority under the Breeding of Dogs Acts 1973 and 1991.

A breeding establishment for dogs is defined as "the carrying on by that person at premises of any nature (including private dwelling) of a business of breeding dogs, with a view to their being sold in the course of such business, whether by the keeper there or by any other person.

A breeding establishment is defined as meaning any premises (including a private dwelling) where more than two breeding bitches are kept for the purpose of breeding for sale.

The fee for a Dog Breeding Licence is £70.35 per year and Licences run from 1 January to 31 December in any one year. The factors that are taken into consideration when determining the licence application are "Dog Breeding Establishment Licence Conditions" and can be downloaded from the list on the right.

rightly or wrongly a bitch of 9 months is capable of having puppies therefore to class her as a breeding bitch would not be incorrect.

I didnt say she couldnt have puppies at 9 months I actully said that its terrible and misleading to say to the sheep population that bitches are ready for mating at 9 months old as its hard enough getitng people to wait till 2 yrs mostly so if these council people go around saying shes 9 months old you can breed her etc etc I think its sending out completely the wrong message for breeding standards as any other organisation say 2 yrs regardless and the council should too

All the councils in this area, for example North Warwickshire, Stratford District Council, abide by the rules of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act 1999, which states that if you own 5 or more breeding bitches then you need a breeding licence.

"If you own 5 or more breeding bitches and they produce 5 or more litters per year OR your premises are used solely for the purpose of breeding dogs then you require a Licence issued under the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. "

That law also states that bitches must be at least 12 months old before mating, and have no more than 6 litters in their lives.

that relates specificaly to the region but the govt act states 4 breeding bitches. I am guessing each authority can have its own deffinition:-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1999/ukpga_19990011_en_1#pb1-l1g1

It seems like a minefield of contradictory information.  The only way to establish your own councils ruling is to ask I guess.

Scrolling down to the Definition of Establishments, the law clearly says

(3) Subject to subsection (5) of this section, where--
(a) a person keeps a bitch at any premises at any time during any period of twelve months; and
(b) the bitch gives birth to a litter of puppies at any time during that period,
he shall be treated as carrying on a business of breeding dogs for sale at the premises throughout the period if a total of four or more other litters is born during the period to bitches falling within subsection (4) of this section

So 5 litters it is, in Law.

Still cant believe they are saying that young for a breeding bitch :(
I kow Im getting hung up on the small detail but come one, 9 or 12 months?

Need to call and find out I reckon as councils are independant arent they so would have their own rules and regs etc?

Whatever needs sorting out about the exact numbers required I don't think we should criticise a council for wishing to come around and inspect when they are aware of the possibility that there are a number of dogs nor can we reasonably say they cannot see all the dogs and puppies on the premises.  Isn't that what we would want to happen? 
Is this not something that is so often complain of, the authorities not getting off their seats and checking things out?  I am sure the inspectors are quite familiar with the need for hygiene etc, this is their job, so I am sure they will take whatever precautions are necessary to safeguard the puppies.
If it was me I would welcome them, get it over with and get on with the issue of establishing just what is required. 

So basically anyone who has two unspayed bitches in the house regardless to if they intend on having a litter have to have a breeders licence. I know many people with two unspayed bitches and no intention of breeding. What they going to do? insist on them being spayed, getting a licence or getting rid?

>So basically anyone who has two unspayed bitches in the house regardless to if they intend on having a litter have to have a breeders licence.

Not according to national Law; which I would think takes precedence over a council.

> So basically anyone who has two unspayed bitches in the house regardless to if they intend on having a litter have to have a breeders licence.

Where are we getting the number of two from?

> Is this not something that is so often complain of, the authorities not getting off their seats and checking things out?

I agree with your post 100% Isabel (For once we agree lol ;) )
My only gripe is there breeding age for a bitch is 9-12 months, just gives the wrong impression to people in my eyes, completely wrong.
I do think they will put some people off having so many dogs tho, espicially if they dont keep their council house clean from doggy mess etc and know they will be up for inspection at anytime, just hope it does good as we need some good news in the dog world lately not more bad :(

But like lumphy said it wont be good for everyone will it?

Peanuts, print out copies of the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the The Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 and ask the Council to point out where national law backs their position.

>Where are we getting the number of two from?

From the OP's council contact. Peanuts was told:
"if you own two or more (bitches between 9 months and 8 years) you must have a council breeding licence, even if you do not breed."

> My only gripe is there breeding age for a bitch is 9-12 months

A licenced breeder can breed bitches from 12 months.  Not sure if that means they can be mated before 12 months.

>just hope it does good as we need some good news in the dog world lately not more bad

This is not new, licencing has been around for some years.

> "if you own two or more (bitches between 9 months and 8 years) you must have a council breeding licence, even if you do not breed."

I missed that.  That's pretty strict.

I never even thought of it that way Rach....the way I see it is that those that need to be licensed are generally going to be those that aren't breeding for the good of the breed - ie breeding for money.

Therefore their primary concern is going to be churning out as many litters as possible as quickly as possible. Most are going to think nothing of breeding from a 9 month old, so isn't it good they're counted?

Thanks everyone i will print out the welfare and breeding acts and have a good look.

Just another thing for you to think about on the paperwork that they have given me it states it is the "BVA Guide to the breeding of dogs act".

Peanuts

> I missed that.  That's pretty strict.

It's also incorrect! The 1999 Act requires a licence if five litters are bred in a twelve month period. If I read the details correctly, that figure includes any bitches owned by the breeder but whelping elsewhere, eg. on breeding terms.

> on the paperwork that they have given me it states it is the "BVA Guide to the breeding of dogs act".
>

The BVA guide is only available to members, so I can't have a look at it, but it sounds as though your council are using the requirements of the 1977 Act (which did specify 'more than 2 breeding bitches') rather than the updated 1999 Act. If so, they are incorrect!

Thank heavens for that as the councils here in Cornwall have the same outdated information but i am guessing they will try to act on it.

I do not agree that the council knows what it is doing when it sends inspectors round.  Oursr are not dog owners or breeders and the vets are not always used to being around newly whelped bitches.  I don't have visitors myself until puppies are able to regulate body temperature and fight of infection.  Even kennel cough can kill whelps.

It is sensible to hold that part of the inspection until they are 4 weeks old.

And yes a great idea other than that.

> Oursr are not dog owners or breeders

But they will be used to inspecting breeders premises so will have a good idea of what they are looking at.  I think it is unfortunate if good breeders fall into the inconvenience of inspections but personally I would not mind in the knowledge that this also means the breeders that you really would want inspected are not allowed to say go away and come back when the puppies are 4 weeks.

You shold not assume that they are used to inspecting breeding premises - in my old area the local EHO who was incharge of inspecting dog boarding or breeding licenses absolutley hated dogs, and was scared of them too.  When I initially enquired about a licence under the old regs (I had 3 bitches)  he denied knowledge of any such regs, and  then  reluctantly came round to discuss the requirements - he then insisted that he could not help as there were no other licensed breeders in the area, so he had no idea what was needed to fulfil the licensing requirments.  This was even though the local boarding kennel also bred (a very succesful hound kennel) and had a breeding licence.  I never got futher in my licence application, and then thankfully the reg changed, but he did visit the other kennel, and insisted that she raised the dog beds in the puppy kennels at least 4" form the floor - the pups using the beds were 8 week old mini Dachsis!  They could happily walk under a 4" off the floor bed, but no way could get inot it!

Peanuts council appear to be rather more proactive than that.  I suppose you could always ask to see what guidelines they are operating to as these recommendations really ought to be evidence based.  Perhaps there is a good reason for the 4" climb that we don't know about! :-D  If they did not produce the evidence I don't know what steps they can take to force you to comply with something that you did not agree was beneficial to the dogs welfare.

When I looked on our council website recently it said if we had 3 entire bitches you need a licence when i phoned as I have 3 I was told yes I would need a licence, Seperate kenels for each whelping bitch just in case and somewhere else to have the male un neutered dogs also, it all sounded very complicated to me.  I do feel though I am being put in a position that if I want entire females the males have to be castrated or vice versa I do think it should be on how many litters are bred each year not how many dogs you have.  I am now having to make a choice of what to do.  I also do think it depends on each borough council also. 

Linda 

This gives a very clear explanation of what is required for a breeder's licence.

i mostly agree with you isabel, great that they are looking into it and want to check premisis etc but to demand to see 1 week old pups is slightly out of line. i would hope that they would know what they are talking about re. dog breeding and agree to come when the pups are a bit older. it won't make any odds to their investigation but could be life or death to pups.

> but he did visit the other kennel, and insisted that she raised the dog beds in the puppy kennels at least 4" form the floor - the pups using the beds were 8 week old mini Dachsis!  They could happily walk under a 4" off the floor bed, but no way could get inot it!

oh my...

> but to demand to see 1 week old pups is slightly out of line.

If hygiene precautions are understood and observed I don't see why.  Back in the days of docking my puppies were visited by my vet and his wife when they were younger than this as I am sure thousands of litters up and down the country were.

> it won't make any odds to their investigation but could be life or death to pups.

A less scrupulous breeder could use such an excuse to make a lot of cover ups.

thats true. i do agree that as long as hygiene standards are observed it should be fine, but look at the examples of clueless investigators given above. also some bitches might not be terribly happy with total strangers being in at their pups, that would be a big concern.

> look at the examples of clueless investigators given above.

That is a shame and you would want that improved but I would not like to see the whole concept of licensing and inspections lost.

>some bitches might not be terribly happy with total strangers

Again, was never a problem with my vets visits and that involved handling the pups.  I can't think that would be necessary for an inspector who should be able to see their general condition and the whelping and rearing arrangements they are in without getting dreadfully close.

nor would i, i think that proper observation and requirements would deal with so many problems facing dogs today but i'd like to see it done well

looking at allof the posts and what this person is saying i think you should let her come and see all of the dogs and pups.. once they see that they are in good condition then im sure they will not be so eager to get a breeding licence off of you... show them all of the evidence that shows the law is '5 litters every 12 months'... and they cannot challenge.. if they do.. they will loose in the end.

I dont think the pups will catch an infection if she is just looking at them.. and stands away from the whelping box... are you confined to your house until the puppies go? no, so you do come into contact with other things that /could/ harm the puppies... just insist she does not stroke the bitch unless she puts on some anti bac first :)

i am not replying to any ones post specifically i am just putting my pennies worth in because its late and i need some shut eye, as far as i am aware in my area this is not gospel so dont quote me on it but the last time i read as this with our council if you have more than 3 unspayed bitches you need a licence, i would personally not allow anyone and i mean anyone regardless of the consequences,  including friends and family to walk into my bitch and her 1 week old pups regardless of who they were unless they were prepared to dip there feet (lightly in the dissinfectant tray out side the puppy unit) and wash and dissinfect there hands and removed there shoes,why because we have an out break of not only kennel cough but also parvo, in this area at the moment, i have always done this i have not had problems with it in the past, to tell you the truth its there problem if there is one but i am not going to expose my dogs or puppies to any form of infection etc so they have to fit in with my policies before i fit in with theres.

It's not just infection that they should be aware of.  And actually I don't leave my house at all for the first week but that's me, its the danger of a bitch harming her pups or visitors especially a first time mum.  I think if you read the boards you will find examples of bitches killing entire litters and the possible explanation being that they were afraid for their pups and killed them.  These bitches can be very sweet natured but inexperienced. Perhaps someone has something to add on that issue.

Edited to add:- yes Molly one of our local councils says 2 bitches over 12 months and that's a complete nonsense as that must be half the dog owning population here.

I am a bit confused: is this one of those laws where councils can make there own regulations, in the same way they can decide were dogs can be walked. Or is it a government law, full stop, and every council has to apply the law as written in the government passed law with no lea way to add their own ideas.

It would seem the answer to the above would answer the Peanuts question; if the council can make their own rules then she will have to comply, if the law is central and can't be amended then she can tell the council to go hang although they would still have the right to check that she is complying with the law as set down in the government paper.

> Or is it a government law, full stop, and every council has to apply the law as written in the government passed law with no lea way to add their own ideas.
>

It is a government law, and the councils that have not updated are wrong.

So there is nothing in the law to give the councils the right to change or add to the government paper at all? If that is so then Peanuts can stand her ground and tell them she does not have to have a licence, and if she wishes refuse them entry to her home.

That's as I understand it - but I'm not a lawyer!

Thank you lincolnimp, I think to be sure it should be checked with someone who can say defiantly but I think you may be correct and if you are then anyone approached by a council saying they require a licence should be able to stand their ground and show the council they are wrong.

Think there are organisations that specialize in law that effects dogs and dog ownership so perhaps someone on this forum can point us in the direction of an organisation who could give a definitive answer.

This just seems like a minefield,
I have just read through the rest of the paperwork that they have given me, this will make you cringe.

According to the paperwork , once you have a licence you have to keep books ie everytime any of your dogs are taken out of the house for a walk , show , vets, how long they are out , were you have taken them , what type of car they have been in.
Also Tempreture of my house and kennels, vacs, when the bitches are in season, they can come and view my house anytime they like, AND on top of all that my council tax will have to be reviewed as i will be classed as a business, and i have to register with the tax office, all this for one litter in a five year period and this is a hobby breeder according to them.
The more i read the paperwork , the more i think i will tell them to get stuffed.

Peanuts

PS I would love to send you all copies so you could have a good laugh yourselves.

>Think there are organisations that specialize in law that effects dogs and dog ownership so perhaps someone on this forum can point us in the direction of an organisation who could give a definitive answer.

I'd say that Doglaw would be able to give the definitive answer. Calls cost £1.50 a minute from a BT landline.