At training last week, someone was talking about
their new puppy and referred to her as "homebred"
I always thought the term meant that you owned both sire and dam, but
recently (as at training) have seen it used a lot to simply indicate
that a dog was bred by the owner. Is it that the definition has changed
over the years?

snomaes

I have always thought it simply meant bred by the owner but I would be surprised if it had a strict definition.

As far as I know it has always meant bred by the owner.

Many breeders don't own males at all, or because their males are closely related to their bitches are unlikely to have a male at at home suitable.

Homebred, a bit liked homecooked...... made in my home from my bitches.

Since I never own the father of my litters - I have never taken it to mean owning both parents..... (which can smack of BYB.......cheap, easily accessible and always available.)

i have studdogs, fathers of those that are "homebred" ... doesnot always mean one is not using an "outside" dog .. a male/stud from another owner ..
sure it is easy to have the stud around .. but does not make me or those who do own "both parents" a sort of BYB ...
cheap? ... keeping a studdog in good condition, having all the healthcertificates done ... does that sound cheap to you?
from some bitches we have father, grandfather here in the house ... we ARE not  using them .as we want to continue, progress, and try to improve with every litter, every combination.. We look for a dog that compliments  the bitch,  suits the lines she has in her pedigree and if that means  taking a dog from abroad, UK, USA or wherever we  go for that dog .... having studdogs yourself does not always mean one only uses them ! But if useful to one of our bitches, -please see above - then we use our own studdog!
maybe i mis-interpret your reply .. but i dont like to see my self compared with BYB just because of owning (using my own)Studdogs & Bitches!

Yes you did mis- interpret my reply. I clearly said "    which can smack of BYB.."
I was talking of the common themes of adverts for 'farmed' puppies'

ie the things I tell people to look out for in dodgy puppy sellers are: 'both parents can be seen' -'Frontlined',- 'vet checked' and 'a variety of breeds available'. I also suggest avoiding websites that advertise what they sell rather than their successes and health history. Yes people keep stud dogs, but do they only use their own?

This is just a rule of thumb I suggest to people who ask .....that's all.

If any of this wrankles with you I apologise...how would you advise potential puppy owners to spot dodgy adverts?

We all know that great dogs are often used by their owners but they are in a minute percentage of litters. I know someone who's dog was BOB at Crufts last year but hardly ( if at all) used in the home kennel.
It is for the same reason I wont sell a male as a stud dog to be used on all the breeders bitches.... can he be right for everyone of a kennel owners stock or just very good value?  

<<<<having studdogs yourself does not always mean one only uses them ! But if useful to one of our bitches, -please see above - then we use our own studdog!>>>>>

Maybe in my original post I should have said "BRED both parents, rather than owned" I was thinking of people who used dogs they had bred as well as "in house" dogs. Perhaps the "homebred" term was used in that sense that I am thinking of years ago,when many of the top kennels in my breed and others were that, kennels that housed large numbers of dogs/bitches and it was possible to breed many generation without the need to go outside the kennel.

We too have used our own dogs on our own bitches, but in 21 litters (we bred our first litter in 1988) have only done so 3 times.

snomaes

we use  our studdogs, see what they produce .. then  allow them to be used by others who have our breeding , or breeding in same lines.. then wait for healthresults scores etc to come through .. thats when we decide they can be used to different lines/bitches etc.
we are responsible for what they produce .. if something pops up in our own puppies .. we can/must deal with it ..and taking the consequences.
from some males we had more litters then from the other .. maybe just depended on what we liked seeing in our pups .. some combinations didnot work out the way we expected/hoped for .; again one has to be honest towards the own breeding: kennelblindness  should be avoided. and  one should be able to admit that a studdog from another breeder proved the better candidate for your bitch!
i love my males to pieces, but do see the points where there could be improvement in their progeny ..when used to certain bitches!
and with some males .. in my time of breeding some males could be used for generations .. we still  have a dog at the moment that we know we can use on the granddaughter/ g.granddaughters etc on generations to come ( depending of HIS age ofcourse  and his health.. he puts his mark and we love what he produces!
and maybe thats what i mean when i am proudly saying: realy homebred .. a puppy .. carrying all the  dogs good points from our "home studdog& bitch"  who are also self bred parents of this puppy ...very often even have bred the grandparents ... a real good feeling i can tell you if this "homebred" fullfils all what you have hoped for!

I have a male, only one though, thank the stars ;-) He is 'homebred'. He was born in my home, out of a bitch I have bred. I also have a young bitch who I would call 'home bred', as I bred her in my home, though I didn't breed her mother. To me 'home bred' has always meant just that, born in the home, not outside in a kennel. I suppose different people have different understanding of the saying.

Oh, and as an afterthought, I intend using my 'home bred' dog on my 'non home bred'  bitch. Does that make me someone to avoid? He has not been used before, is 6 years of age, and will only be used a few times. It will be my bitches 2nd litter. The first was by an outside dog.

I can understand why you would want to avoid litters where both parents can be seen, but there are some very legitimate breeders out there who do have both parents, or the father is available to be seen by appointment with his owner, if not owned by the breeder. Seeing the pups with mum is far more important. Some breeders don't even allow you that.

hi i agree with everything you are saying i have heard it on this forum before keep away from breeders that own there own stud dogs you cant paint everyone with the same brush and i find it very offensive, being put into the byb catergory just for owning the sire .i dont know how people can come to the conclusion that it maybe a way of saving on expence or that it maybe conveiniant to the breeder as you say buying the dog, keeping that dog in prestine condition, until its at least two, haemo testing in my breed and the other test costs £100,s not forgetting feeding , housing, insurances ,training temprement testing, and also to avoid unwanted puppies all the inconveiniance and expence of maybe having to have your male  dog boarded  whilst bitches are in season for 3-4 weeks. it would be cheaper and more conveniant to use some one else s stud dog  id say i really dont think having your own dog justifies any concern for new puppy owners, as long as everything is above board regarding the breeding programme.

To be fair to Tooolz, The majority of larger 'breeding establishments' DO use their own stud dogs for convience and financial purposes.. Its quite rare to find a small kennel hobby breeder who owns a good stud that is suitable to use on one of their own girls.. usually because the lines are far too close, or as a small breeder, its mother & son, or sister and brother kept from previouse litter.. ..

there are, on the other hand, small kennel hobby breeders, who have kept a good dog, and having been used at stud, has produced quality pups.. and a girl who has possibly been ' bought in' is suitable..

I have had boys and girls for many many years.. but for the 1st time ever.. have I been able to use one of my own 'homebred' boys on one of my girls.. but... I didnt breed the girl, nor did I breed the boys mother.. however.. I did purchase both girls from the same breeder, therefore my homebred boy, and the bought in girl.. are being linebred, but not directly down my own line (if that makes sense lol)

It can be done, but in my case, it will never be done again, out of 6girls I own.. she is the only one suitable to use on my boy.. its a 'one off'

I think sometimes we take things written far too literally, rather than generalising..  and its hard to sit back and not defend some our breeding practices, and feel the need to justify.. but, take a look at many of those adverts.. and we see Tooolz, is not far wrong... ;-) 

dont be offended, I am the above situation.. and still feel the need to justify this mating.. but I am not offended.. ;-)  I see the whole picture

I would agree.  I too have just used a dog I bred on my Champion bitch, because with both being outcross sired I wanted to breed back into my bitch line.

I also have used a dog that I and three friends imported, with my two bitches in mind when we imported him, but generally both parents can be seen is something to be wary of and I would question exactly why the home stud was used..

Well put Kay. :-)

I think Tooolz made a good point re: what to flag up in your mind as a warning when looking at puppy ads - if the breeder has a good sound explanation and good reason for using their stud on their bitch then that's different - if they don't and have done it purely for convenience run, run for the hills..... :-D

i started with labs coming from the topkennel ever .. still buy in dogs/bitches from this kennel.
they have litters from own studdog etc .. SO do I very often!And with success .. They use dogs from other breeders, so do I, but always looking if they  suit the lines ...the pedigree .. the healthrequirements!
  I still dont see the point why i should give any explanation doing this! my dogs, bitches suit  eachothers lines, and if  one buys in a dog for studdogpurpose i am sure those who do that have checked and know this dog can be used to what they have etc!
i still dont want to be put on same line with those you think are the "bad breeders"! some top kennels, and NO they dont have over 30 + dogs! have used/using their own studdogs .. they are highly respected .. are admired for their results healthwise and for their wins, good eye and feeling how to breed a winner!
Quite amazing maybe for you  to hear that the people who come and visit my kennel are over the moon when they see both parents of their puppy ..  I can tell them about their habits etc .. they  come with me when i take the lot out and they can play etc with both parents, giving them a good impression how their pups will be, how and where he is bred from!
I dont see anything wrong in that at all! Before  judging others ..  best to ask why you have such a bad impression/idea abaout this .. bad experience maybe?

>if  one buys in a dog for studdogpurpose i am sure those who do that have checked and know this dog can be used to what they have etc!

I'm sure most people don't care - as far as they're concerned as long as the dog's unrelated to the bitch that's fine.

Sorry toolz, the only bit of your sample add that is really suspect is 'many breeds available'.  Seeing mother and father is a bonus so is frontlined and vet checked.  Like many here I use my own stud somtimes and go out at others.  Blanket statements like that are damaging missleading.

Just to add:- my boy is not related to any of my girls but I am trying to build a larger gene pool hence studs being sourced from American stock, Finish stock and British.

Edited to add, when my partners boy is studded out the prospective owners of new puppies are invited to come and see him so that they have a fair idea of what he is like even though the mother of the puppies does not live near us.  This is IMO being responsible and letting prospective buyers see both mother and father.

totaly agree to that! i do the same ... invite all to come and see the Daddy of their pup!
and that is also the reason that i arrange/organize  this "progeny days"
everyone having apuppy coming from either one of our studdogs/bitches or bitches bred by us .etc .
giving people the chance to see the relatives of their dog!
i have recently imported from USa, we have also dogs  used, bought in from Finland etc ..all going back  to the lines i have in my dogs ..
Responsability for the breed and Respect for others who try to do a"" good job"" are essential when breeding your self ..Never too old to learn, never too young to admit mistakes!

Since that was in reply to me....

> Before&nbsp; judging others ..&nbsp;

I was not judging anyone. I was agreeing that seeing 'both parents available to view' or similar in an ad for a puppy is something to watch out for and question, for an inexperienced puppy buyer (or indeed any puppy buyer). Very often it means - 'I own two dogs and have thought I can put them together and make some cash from some cute babies but not about whether they are suitable mates for each other or done any health testing...' etc etc.

> I still dont see the point why i should give any explanation doing this!

I don't know why you are so defensive. You would no doubt expect a puppy buyer to explain their situation to you - how they plan on looking after the puppy, whether it will be left and for how long etc.... why should the buyer not ask questions of you? The reason puppy buyers need to ask and you need to explain IMO is because of all the irresponsible breeders who don't care that work this way. It doesn't lump you in the same class as the irresponsible breeders and I certainly didn't suggest that it does.

People on here are always saying that puppy buyers should do their research to avoid buying puppies from an unsuitable source - but you are saying they shouldn't question why people own both the sire and dam and have chosen to mate them. To me it would be something that would need explanation before I got a puppy - and if it was someone responsible that had good reason and was using best dog to complement their bitch etc I wouldn't have a problem with that - but I would want to know 'why before I buy'. ;-) If you see what I mean.

I don't think anyone is implying that you are an irresponsible breeder because you occasionally use your own stud on one of your dogs - but that doesn't alter the fact that plenty irresponsible breeders do this routinely - for cost and convenience purposes - and therefore it is a relevant point for a puppy buyer to query. It's the irresponsible breeders doing that you want to be having a go at, not me!!

> we use  our studdogs, see what they produce .. then  allow them to be used by others who have our breeding , or breeding in same lines.. then wait for healthresults scores etc to come through

Just want to pick up on this point for clarification. Would you not have their hips scored and other health tests done before you used them, or allowed others with your breeding to use them?

I think they might mean the health scores of the progeny - I hope so anyway!

> I was agreeing that seeing 'both parents available to view' or similar in an ad for a puppy is something to watch out for and question, for an inexperienced puppy buyer (or indeed any puppy buyer). Very often it means - 'I own two dogs and have thought I can put them together and make some cash from some cute babies but not about whether they are suitable mates for each other or done any health testing...' etc etc.
>

I agree and also alot of the "just one litter" pet owners own both parents as well as the ones out to make money.They'll buy a male and a female of the same breed(sometimes even littermates) with the idea of breeding a litter as it is "for the good of the bitch" before spaying.Their ignorance contributes to the huge numbers in rescue and they mostly produce very poor examples of the breed let alone the health problems.A quick look at any of the puppy selling websites will confirm this :(  The more questions a puppy buyer asks and the more information they have the better :)

> A quick look at any of the puppy selling websites will confirm this

Exactly what I meant charlie72

On these pupz websites a large majority say "both parents can be seen" and in fact, it is those which
don't,which are usually show breeders.
I think we all understand using especially imported
stud dogs and very successful dogs belonging to the home kennel, but it seems amazing to me that  for many, given the choice of the stud dogs from the whole of Great Britain, the most suitable dog is always on the owners property already.
It has never happened to me yet :-)

Also if you read any article about the best way to buy a puppy it will mention the breeder owning both parents as(potentialy) a red flag..

"See both parents" or "both parents on premises" is often thought of as a bonus to potential dog owners. You want to judge the puppy by the attributes of its parents. However, both parents on site might be a signal that you are dealing with a backyard breeder. Be sure to question the breeder to learn more. It's possible that a responsible breeder had the luck of adopting two perfect specimens of the breed; but more than likely, a backyard breeder is looking to make a few bucks.

From...  http://www.5stardog.com/dog-breeders.asp

Mate choice is that which is convenient, cheap, local (very often owns both sire and dam)

From.. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html

That's just a couple of examples,I could find dozens more.

Oh my god I'm flapping now, I'm new to all of this, I've never bred a dog before only Guinea Pigs and Parrots, I'm thinking of starting breeding but when I read all that you professionals out there have to say I feel like a complete and utter ignoramus. So come on chaps and chapesses how about some advice for a greenhorn, should I do it, where do I start (by the way my girls are only 5 and 6 months so I assume I have plenty of time to gather info)? Does the owner of the stud dog have to aprove of my bitches before they will allow the stud to work his wonders what are the criteria? How many seasons should a bitch have before you mate her? How do you know what to do when the 'mum' is in labour? What are all these terms that you use what is a BYB? I gather that there is pro's and cons about having your own stud dog. If you do have your own dog how do you control him when the girls are in season and you either don't want to mate them at that time or not with him on that occasion. Do any of you find it difficult to sell your pups? Are people happy to buy pups that come from a breeder that does not do any showing? Do many prospective owners object if you want to 'check' them out before you agree to sell? So as you can see I need guidence, I've bought The book of the Bitch and wonder arethere any other good books?

> by the way my girls are only 5 and 6 months

One would assume that these pups came from the kind of breeder(s) who would be proud and able to answer these questions.
If not, as the song says ......................" there maybe trouble ahead".
Good luck :-)

I'm not a breeder but I will say I wouldn't have thought there were any profesional breeders on here as that would indicate that they make their living breeding dogs,something licenced breeders and backyard breeders do.I'll answer what a BYB is though..

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_breedersandpetshops.php

http://www.shilohshepherds.com/puppyBreeders/breederArticle.htm

http://www.learntobreed.com/

http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMillsVA/What_is_a_Backyard_Breeder_/what_is_a_backyard_breeder_.html

I'm sure you'll get lots of replys but it may be better to start a new thread with all your questions after reading those links  :)

Also - look at the references Jeangenie suggests to Julia Hill in her post re Kennel Club and Dogs Trust announcement!

Margot

Link here..

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89071.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html

Of course they came from very good breeders as did my 2 year old. I do keep intouch with both breeders and will of course go to them for advice that goes without saying, I would however like to get as much advice and opinion from all quarters before I make the decision.

> i have heard it on this forum before keep away from breeders that own there own stud dogs you cant paint everyone with the same brush and i find it very offensive, being put into the byb catergory just for owning the sire

i think the advice to be wary of a breeder who owns both dog and bitch is reasonable as many people do just do the mating for cheapness rather than to further their breed. having said that, if you come across such a breeding your as well to ask why- if the breeder can give you a good answer (his line and hers compliment each other, i specifically got him from that line to hopefully work with hers assumiung he passed his health tests and turned out nice, i hope to acchieve pups with his front but her character, deliberate line breeding for a trait...) whatever good reasons, then yeah, why not?

Of course they came from very good breeders as did my 2 year old. I do keep intouch with both breeders and will of course go to them for advice that goes without saying, I would however like to get as much advice and opinion from all quarters before I make the decision

You asked where you would start, as Toolz said that would be with your dogs breeder as you'd need to check if they endorsed the pedigree, if they would be happy for you to breed from their pups plus you'd need them as a mentor.
As i said before,you would be better off starting a new thread with your questions :)

I am not only new to the concept of breeding but also new to the Champdogs Forum, so if I have put too many questions on one post I apologise, I'm still finding my way round this thing, so where do I click to start a new thread?
Incase any of you out there are thinking OH GOD here comes another BYB please rest assured that it is not something we would go into lightly all of the required health screening would be done and we would do our best to ensure the health of our girls and any future pups.

If you click on the link to the breeding forum then click "Add topic" in the top right you can start your own thread.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/board/1.html

There's nothing wrong with asking as many questions as you like but if you start your own thread more people will see it and you should get more responses.There's a wealth of knowledge on here and it shouldn't take you long to get the hang of the forum  :)

hi nicola welcome to champ dogs there are a lot of your questions  already answered through the different posts in the forum, happy reading.

we have  our dogs scored before even thinking of breeding ;. and what i meant is: the healthresults, scores of the progeny! our dogs are optigen tested, heartclear, and  i just started doing EIC ..
as health is very important to me .. i want the puppybuyers to have just as much joy with their dogs as we do have with ours, thats also means for the dog itself: a long happy life
maybe in the UK there is a lot of advertising .. i never had to use either the clubs list nor the adverticemnets in papers !
i think if for many years one has proven to  try to breed as good as possible then one's name is wellknown for it!
i still dont see what giving good info to puppybuyers about parents, health, raising puppies cannot be seen serious when having both parents!
maybe what is needed is just honesty towards puppybuyers: saying although all is done to breed a healthy puppy still no 100% gurantee can be given! if working from here .. trust can be gained ..  even  to those who have both parents on their premises.
why always think the worst of other breeders .. it is so easy to do that ... much more rewarding if just talking to those breeders, explaining your vieuw .. on how they breed, what your intentions are when breeding ..
each breeder has started somewhere, not always with the best dog ever, not always with the best  choice ever .. does that mean he/she is a bad breeder for the rest of their life ..
just think of the way YOU yourself have started .. then comment on others ..
i think this  whole picking on each other,talking, hoping that others might make a " mistake"  is in my opinion the reason why the word "breeder" seems to  get such a bad taste in the mouth!
and to those who wonder why studdogowners USE their own studdog ... IF YOU HAVE GONE through all the trouble importing this dog, buying this dog, showing this dog .. i think then  you have done this with the intention of using this dog to your bitches .. i dont see the point of taking a studdog/keeping a studdog if you are not able to use him ..
maybe  a good look at the pedigrees of your bitches can help finding( or ask someone else to help you in finding)a studdog that can be very worthwile and very helpfull in the continuing of your breeding ..
and all for the best if he is usefull for others aswell when proved to give a good percentage of healthy, good looking progeny!
and about having one dog/bitch and used them ....most breeders started that way in a time/decade that the genepool was still small .. and in some breeds one should be just happy  there are breeders making the efforts to buy in a studdog and start breeding/setting up their breeding ..
dont always go out from the worst scenario, a bit of trust in those WHO try to do their best , even if not 'your way of doing things"..sometimes it helps more to have a good discussion( like this one for example) to learn about each others vieuws ...
i still try, with 38 years of breeding .. to understand "where  people are coming from", then offer advice, help and stil tell that it is only my way of seeing things .. not pushing, not forcing ... not judging ..
it still works for me ..
and NO i am not breeding to make a living ... I write for dogmagazines, countrylife magazines etc, husband retired and just enjoy the puppies ...  the old ones, the bouncy full of life youngsters ... 
i prefer males to bitches, maybe the reason i have more males then others would have .. would not want to miss any of them ..  and NO i dont mind if they are not often used by others   they are formost MY DOGS, MY COMPANIONS ..
I have set up a retrieverrescue .. so i know how some "breeders"  or dogowners tick  .. but i still give everyone the benfit of doubt .. try to put some trust in  the reasons genuine or not .. for others people decissions!

Welcome Nicola, every one starts somewhere - have fun!

as to continue:
I think one should be more aware to buy with breeders where one can only see  bitches up to 6/7 years, no old ones either males or females ... as this  could mean they only keep dogs to have the litters!
i would feel much more happier when seeing oldies around in the house, with breeders who are proud to show them, tell about their success, their progeny ...
i think i would worry more about the good intentions if only see the bitches who are having litters/still producing ..

I've just had my bitch x rayed for Hip Scoring, the hips are not what I wanted & I am waiting for the results before I make up my mind. My bitch has also had all the available DNA tests done. This has been done before I finally make up my mind about where we go next. If her hips are above the BMS then she will be spayed & removed from the gene pool & I will be on to my plan B with her full brother.

Dog breeding is not for the faint hearted if you are to do it properly with the dogs & their offsprings welfare the 1st priority, plans like the ones I had come a distant 2nd IMHO

keep fingers crossed for you! i have a young boy who will be tested for hips next week ..
i am just lucky with having lots of space around .. if a dog  does not pass .. he still stays with us ..
he is still my boy!
his sister already done, all okay ....having made some nice plans for her ..
once having had the experinec  of an "all clear" bitch who just never got in whelp .. 
she turned out to be the best  "aunty" and the best help for raising pups .; when the mum got fed up with them!
i love all my boys,girls  and we have one agreement , my husband and i about the dogs ..
if they leave our house .. "then only  to their last, final spot in our field"
so even when worried etc about the results .. it would not change much for the dog itself!
the reason why i wrote about "no point in keeping/using a studdog if not using him to your bitches ..is meant in general .  when we buy in an adult .. it  is because he suits/can be used to our girls here .; when keeping a son . who doesnot come up to expectations .. he still stays, but ofcourse will not be used .. he is just one of our boys ..
no need to send him away just because he does not fit the breedingplans, he still fits my idea of a wonderfull companion .. I know not possible for many breeders .. many would say: he is better off as a pet ..
well .. then he is just my pet ..

I can't see how in a numerically large breed, accepting exceptional circumstances like having imported new bloodlines for an express need for the breed, eg health issues, that the breeder's dog outside the back door could possibly be the best match in this country for their own bitch.  If this IS the case, then I would expect the reason to be explained to the prospective purchaser.
I have never kept stud dogs myself, preferring to travel to the best dog available for each bitch that I wanted to mate. 
I have, however, recently bought in a puppy from a breeder who owned both breed record holder sire and champion bitch and she explained to me exactly her thinking for doing the mating.  Without that explanation, and of course that I value her experience and success in the breed, I would have certainly not even have gone to view the litter.

> I have, however, recently bought in a puppy from a breeder who owned both breed record holder sire and champion bitch and she explained to me exactly her thinking for doing the mating

West coast.... just exactly the exception we were both refering to.
A friend of mine was also in that enviable position but she has the record holding bitch and a stud dog who really produces the goods (I have used him twice)..she did this mating and had a lovely litter BUT I don't think she has ever done it before or since.
Even owning these wonderful dogs and being top kennel several times, she has always used other peoples influential stud dogs.

I think most breeders, who are breeding to improve their lines and get to that fantastic winning dog/bitch, are more that happy to talk about the dogs they have and the puppies they breed.  I am being approached regularly at shows now, since two of my (new to this breed but not to breeding in general) dogs have been doing well and asked if there will be a repeat mating to produce another like it.  Of course we have to wait a couple of years before that and given that the mother comes into season proabably every 10 months she may be too old.  The stud to both those matings is a 300 mile round trip or more from us but the breeder being the person he is loves to show off his dogs and is happy to see folks.  My bitches are also mated as per his guidance so I know I am getting great advice. 

Maybe I am lucky because people are seeing my boy at shows also and happy to go with this mating so its not a bad thing,  All I pointed out is that the blanket statement in itself is not a good guide nor is suggesting that breeders, who have stud dogs, may be BYB.  You can bet they wont need to be asked the reasons why they have the stud dog but may bore the pants of you telling you why, no one has needed to grill me yet as I'm too busy telling them the reasons why and finding out about them at the first contact.

Not aimed at anyone just stating a fact. 

Keeping your oldies is also a good indicator that there is a lot of love behind the breeders intentions for sure.  People are always surprised that all ours are in full coat - its no more difficult to groom them now than it was when they were young so why stop now :)

Was writing at the same time but you posted first.

I stand corrected then, no more use of my stud dog then as obviousley I am a bad breeder so first and last for this little boy.  Sometimes you just have to give in to the more experienced breeder and you obviously know more than me.

Bowing out now.

I am using my own dog with two of my girls within the next year however the reason we kept and bred him was specifically to enhance the lines we have to he was very carefully line bred to be part of our breeding programme.  I had a choice of 8 male puppies and picked him.  He is not perfect however the faults he have my girls dont.  To be honest when I look around the ring as I do constantly for a potential partner for my girls it gives me a headache :)

One point though about generalising about not seeing old dogs around when going to view puppies it may be that the breeder may not have old dogs because they have not been breeding for a long period.

Generalisation can be a very dangerous thing. :)

youre right I got carried away :)  that was my first point

> One point though about generalising about not seeing old dogs around when going to view puppies it may be that the breeder may not have old dogs because they have not been breeding for a long period.
>
>

or part of their breeding plans might have been to replace an oldie who has recently gone to the bridge :( but in that case i imagine it would come up in conversation with the prospective buyer.

as we certainly do have different opinions one last question:
how do you feel when you use a studdog who's owner is hardly using himself ..
could  the reason be: he thinks the studdog is NOT good enough for his own bitches  but hey .; at least brings in some money from those  who use him on theirs.
or .. would you feel more confortable when using a studdog who's owner uses a his stud dog a "lot/several times"because he is so proud and pleased  and confident about/with  what this dog is producing to several of his bitches..?
i rather go for the last one!

how do you feel when you use a studdog who's owner is hardly using himself

I spotted a promising male in puppy classes as having virtues that I needed for one of my bitches. I was the second person to use him (the owner/breed wasn't the first as she hadn't had a suitable bitch in season for him) and I was pleased with the litter produced.  He went on to be a good winner and producer as he matured.  Unless his breeder/owner has a large number of bitches, I wouldn't necessarily expect her to have a suitable bitch for her dog.

I don't choose a stud dog on his number of wins or times used, but on temperament, health, type, ancestors (often having more influence on progeny that the dog itself!) and suitablity for the bitch that I want to mate.  I have little interest in what he has produced to other bitches as they are not MY bitches/lines.

> why always think the worst of other breeders

The reason is that there are a lot of people who simply produce puppies, and not so many real breeders.  Most of the latter category do not need to advertise, but puppy the majority of buyers look at the newspapers and Internet selling sites for advertisements when they look for puppies, this si why maqny good breeders will list their kennels on such sites to hopefully get a few enquiries to the right sort of breeder of the breed clubs.

Many people here on the forum bought their first dog this way and many later realised that their dog was bred by a BYB or from a puppy farm.

>how do you feel when you use a studdog who's owner is hardly using himself ..

I would feel that the breeder recognised that the dog wasn't suitable (very different to "not good enough" ;)) for his bitches, perhaps because he was too closely related to them, or he'd already been used on them so there was no point in using him on them again. I'd far prefer this that go to someone who used his own dogs on his own bitches a lot/several times.