Just looking for a quick piece of advice. Our 15 week old puppy sleeps downstairs in a puppy-proofed part of the kitchen. She has a crate but I don't lock her in it overnight in case she needs to relieve herself. I always leave newspaper/pads for her to 'go' on, and generally she sleeps most of the night but seems to get up pretty early (we think 5 - 6am) to pee and poo. The breeder didn't give her her first vaccination until I had asked several times, and as a result we have to wait until this weekend (not long now!) until we take her out for her first walk.

My question is this - will her toilet habits gradually fall into some pattern once she is out walking? Or do I need to be doing something else? She generally gets her evening meal at 6pm and will 'go' outside 2 hrs afterwards. Should I be waking her up during the night to take her out or getting up in the early hours? (currently I'm getting up at 6am every morning to clean up and hope she hasn't walked it everywhere!) I don't really want to crate her in our bedroom, and she is happy enough now sleeping downstairs on her own (after some intial resistance). I take her outside as soon as I come downstairs and she has started to pee outside then, despite what she has already done on the newspaper.

Advice needed! Many thanks.

I would try to set the alarm to catch her before she has gone in the morning so you can take her out.

By putting down paper and pads indoors and her smelling where she has been before she is getting mixed messages about whether she is suposed to toilet indoors.

I would also take her out just before bed but as late as you can, say around 11pm, if you get up at 6 you may catch her before she does anything.

I used a baby monitor that i brought secondhand on ebay and as soon as i heard any movement or whimpering i shot into the kitchen to put her outside. I never gave mine room to wonder at night, they were always in a crate that was shut overnight, rarely had accidents but you do have to get up early! never used paper either at that age.

I would have thought that by leaving down newspapers and pads you are telling her its ok to go inside. 

I know you dont want to crate pup in your bedroom but having it done with my youngster (now seven months) I would do it with every pup I have in the future.  She only went in the house twice, once the first day we brought her home and then about a week later when it was thunder and lightning outside and then it was only wees.

So - does everyone think I should just get rid of the newspaper/pads completely now?

I'm still swithering about bringing the crate upstairs. Its just we've worked so hard to get her to settle downstairs, but I suppose if I work on gradually getting her used to being confined to the crate, the chances of catching all of the 'needing to go' moments is much higher. I really appreciate the advice - and I did wonder about bringing the crate upstairs. I think naturally she would settle inside the crate if it was in our room, but inside it on her own downstairs I'm not so sure... Oh this is difficult! I guess it's all trial and error. Any more advice is greatly welcomed. Thanks everyone

Hi I completely understand about the lack of decision making; I think there is something about having a new pup in the house that can turn any sensible brain to mush.  Mine rendered me incable of making a decision until I'd checked it twice!!  The trouble was that he was a clever little bean and I was anxious all the time about ensuring the messages were all the 'right' ones...

Here's what worked for us:  in his crate, but in our room for about a week after he came home so that we could comfort him and scoop him out quickly should he need to go out.  Once we'd got a sense of his rhythm we put him downstairs.  As he had the bladder capacity of a small peanut we'd set an alarm and take it in turns to get up and let him out - we tried to time it so that he was awake but not yet distressed.  I think a baby monitor would have helped enormously and I'd prob get one if I was doing it again.  When we got down to him we'd let him out quietly and with no fuss, the only words were praise when he peed.  As his bladder capacity improved we were able to adjust timings until he, and us (yippee!), were able to sleep through the night. 

I never used newspaper as I had another dog in the room and didn't want the pup wandering around when the older dog was crated.  Some puppies will never pee in their crates I understand, or pee where they eat, but mine wasn't one of those - he really didn't mind peeing in the crate and would just move his fleece out of the way and sleep up one end.  I possibly should have got a divider or a smaller crate but as a boy he soon learnt that he could pee out the side anyway!!  We did have accidents, plenty of them but it just became normal to clean up when we misjudged our timings until we found he was completely dry at night, all night.  If your puppy will 'shout' you when she needs to go that's a big advantage - mine would often bark afterward...

I wouldn't rely on walking to help her be clean indoors - at that age you'll only be doing very short training walks and it can be months before pups feel confident enough to pee and poo on a walk.  Just concentrate on learning her rhythms and adapt yourself to those for a while, when she goes outside always walk her back to that spot in the garden next time as you may find that becomes her safe place for toiletting.  As soon as she goes, give big praise, a treat and perhaps some play time,  that way she'll soon learn that she has to perform first. 

Raising puppies is hard work and there is so much advice available isn't there?!   Just try and find something that works for you and your pup and persevere - they do get toilet trained but some just take a bit longer than others :)

This was the first time I tried this and it worked brilliantly. 

Wren came home when she was 7 1/2 weeks.  She had a crate upstairs in our bedroom next to my side of the bed, she had vet bed with a blanket to snuggle in.  Because I was close to her and she could hear me she settled immediately, the first night she woke me up at about 5am, I got up, got her out of the crate (without saying anything to her, no nicey nicey) and took her straight outside in the garden, when she went I lavished praise on her and then took her back up stairs, put her in her crate (again without saying anything) and she settled back down.

within about 10 days she was going right through the night, when she was three months old I moved her crate closer to our bedroom door, and then when she was four months old the crate went onto the landing, a couple of weeks later we let her have the run of the house with the other two dogs.  Our dogs arent allowed in our bedroom as we have two elderly cats and its their sanctuary.  House training in this way didnt cause her to want to be in the bedroom (other than to eat the cat food) and we have had no lapse of house training.  We just have a child gate between the landing and the bedroom as it means I can hear the dogs if there is a problem like if one of them is ill etc.

If she is settled downstairs then IMO you would be crazy to now take her into your bedroom. Sounds to me that you just need to be more diciplined in getting up before she needs to go in the morning. If you feel comfortable with it, try shutting her in the crate all night.. a lot of people on this forum agree that it is a successful method. However, you have to be super diligent in getting up to take her out... otherwise it is just unfair to make her hold it. The baby monitor posting above sounds like a great idea to me!
GOOD LUCK!!

personally if you have already sorted out the sleeping area and she is quite happy and mainly sleeps through the night without whining then I wouldn't change my routine.

What I think you need to do is go back to basic toilet training and get that into a routine with you and your pup.

For a very young pup I do use puppy pads but at this age I would as other have suggested not use them at this stage.

How I train a pup and it is advice I give my new puppy owners with great success is to take pup outside to toilet every 20-30 minutes right throughout the day, use what ever words you want to pee/poo I use 'be a good girl' the second they begin to go give  loads of very  over enthusiastic praise and a big cuddle some people  treat I dont bother as I think you are then you are setting them up for always wanting a treat when really a young pup just wants to please you.
You ..at this stage have to be vigilent and watch pups body language sniffing the floor, circling are all signs of wanting to go, at this point I make a loud noise 'quick quick quick' to distract then run them out to the area you want them to go using the above.
Last meal at 6pm is a reasonable time stick to a routine meal time ,then straight out to the loo dont expect them to go every single time but allow time for them to sniff a little .
I would make the last toilet trip as late as possible and if  you have to go to bed earlier than midnight then I would get up again for that late last toilet.
As other have said set your alarm and get up in the night  if you dont want a puddle in the morning .
This time doesnt last forever but if you want a pup to get into a routine you have to make that.. routine ....as they mature they can hold on for longer eventually they will come and tap you or bark when they want to go to the loo.

good luck with your new baby.

Roni~

> So - does everyone think I should just get rid of the newspaper/pads completely now?

I don't.  I leave paper down for as long as the puppy is using it.  I use a puppy pen though, so some restriction on area, and by about this age they will generally be dry at night.  So I do not feel having paper inhibits their general desire to become clean in their own area.
You say you are putting her out 2 hours after her meal ie 8pm but I presume you are putting her out and ensuring she wees again much later ie 11pm ish.

Id say you are doing it all right really!

I would put the pup out very last thing for her last wee/poo then leave her as you say downstairs with her crate open and some newspaper just incase, with mine as soon as I heard them milling about or whining ( I think pups usually cry when they need a wee) Id get up and run down and put them out.
(obviously thats if you can hear them from where youre bedroom is, ours is a bungalow so could always hear the pup nextdoor)

She is still a baby anyway, things will get easier as she goes on

Good luck x

It sounds like she is probably holding it for as long as she can, but her bladder/bowels cannot hold it all night yet, which is something that will come in time.

Two things come to mind that might help.

Firstly, it sounds like the dog isn't crated at night. If not, then putting her in a crate in the kitchen will encourage her to hold on for as long as she can. Without a crate, she may be going whenever she fancies, rather than learning to hold on. You may find that in reality she can hold it all night already, but doesn't bother to given she can wee on the kitchen floor and then go back to bed. (If you are crating her already, then ignore that bit!)

Secondly, you may have to put up with the fact that for the next couple of weeks, one of you has to get up at, say, 3am and take her out to do what's natural. That way, if she pees and poos when she's outside, she should be able to manage the rest of the night clean. It will be a pain getting up in the middle of the night, but it will get her into the habit of going outside, and then as her bladder and bowels get stronger she will naturally be able to hold it until morning. Continuing as she is, she is just learning that going to the toilet in the kitchen is okay.

For what it's worth, I would say get rid of the papers and pads, and concentrate on taking her out at the right time. When our last boy arrived, I put down the pads and he used them for the first two days, but then started to understand we wanted him to go outside, so we lifted the papers. However, for ages, he would still every so often go to where the pads used to be and have a wee. I swear his housetraining would have been easier if we'd never got him into the habit of thinking that "going" inside was acceptable.

Good luck. House training is one of the hardest things that seems to last forever, but she will get there very soon and poo on the kitchen floor will be long forgotten!

At 15 weeks no puppy can be fully in control of it's bladder or bowels so your puppy is very normal :)

As a guide, at this age I would be feeding the last meal around 10-00pm and taking the pup out for the last toilet break at around midnight or later if possible :)  When bedded down (mine sleep in my bedroom but that's personal choice) I'd expect a max of 5 hours sleep before getting up to let the pup relieve itself again.  If you need more sleep then keep interactions with the pup to a minimum and with luck you may get back to bed for another hour or so before starting a whole new day dedicated to house training (it's just as well we love 'em!)

I've never used pads, papers etc - IMO they give mixed messages about toiletting indoors and I want to get the maximum result out of intensive house training, especially in wet, windy, cold weather which makes regular garden trips even less inviting but all the more necessary :)

IME when sticking rigidly to taking pups out regularly when wakening, after eating and during play sessions then accidents are avoidable or at the very least kept to a minimum and usually our fault for losing track of time between garden trips.   In a few weeks your pup will be able to last say 7 hours overnight before needing to relieve itself and you'll enjoy the luxury of a reasonable night's sleep too.  What we put in now we reap later - so I'd advise early starts and late nights to avoid your pup being uncomfortable and you having to start the day wth a clean up ;)

Alarm clocks are an excellent tool in the house training stages - if we leave it up to the pup waking us up it's already too late :-D

Thanks so much everyone for your replies. its really helpful to hear what has helped everyone else. She is getting better and better at going outside. I have now removed the pads and we'll take things from there! We can see improvements every day and hopefully we will all be getting full nights of sleep in the coming months!

I just checked some of my old emails to see the timings that I was comparing with other owners from the same litter as my pup...

Last meal at 9.00pm, last outing at 10.45pm, bed by 11pm.  Then up at 3am and 7.15am.  The 3am trip was the one we gradually shifted but our darkest hour was when we'd moved it to 6am and then couldn't get our boy back to bed.  For a while I did that last hour on the sofa with him tucked in behind my knees on the sofa.  At least that way if he shifted he'd wake me!!

He's not really allowed on the sofa but nowadays if I ever get a blanket and lie down he hops on and tucks in just like he used to - trouble is he's at least twice the size as he was so he just gently leans back and pushes me off -  that's gratitude :)

We didn't overcome the issue with that last hour until he was 5 months old and went into kennels for 3 nights - it obviously wasn't his habit but mine and ever since then he happily sleeps in.  When I get up for the kids at 7.30am now I sometimes have to wake him up!!  Serves him right for my sleep deprived months :)

An update -

Last wee was at 10pm (meal at 6pm). Took her out at 11pm but nothing to do. Let her sleep in crate in our room. She was quiet all night until 440am when sounded a bit restless. Took her outside and she did another wee within a minute or two. Took her back in, she settled immediately and was still asleep when alarm went off at 630am. Took her outside and she did both within 3 or 4 minutes. Lots of praise! No mess to clean up!

Well done, Othello56! Doesn't life feel better already with no poo to clean up???

Over the next couple of days, if she needs to have a wee at about the same time, you can move the crate back downstairs and just know that she has to go out at around 4.30am (or whatever). Hopefully it shouldn't be many weeks before she's sleeping through and you can get back to your normal routine.

Well it went well for a few nights but for some reason last night she just didn't sleep well at all. I was up with her 3 times during the night and although she did pee on all the trips out, she didn't really do that much. Having said that she did settle down for a while again after going out, but it was basically every 2 to 3 hours I had to let her out. Any ideas why this may be? I'm hoping its just a one-off because I know she can hold on for much longer than that - but I wasn't sure if she'd just slept too much yesterday and wasn't tired overnight? (She has been getting regular exercise within safe limits for her age).

I'd say that's completely normal.  We had some good nights, some bad and just when you thihk you've got it cracked you realise you haven't!!

Is she back downstairs again yet? 

I've got a couple of 12 week pups and they're holding on 8 hours and more.  They go out for toilet after waking, feeding and playing and every couple of hours inbetween. They sleep 8 hours plus, depending on how much sleep I want. They're both in individual puppy crates. They were in my room to start off with for a few nights, and they've moved out only 'cause it's getting crowded ... 3 big dogs plus cat, so pups are downstairs ... it'll make them hardy!! Personally I would just leave her shut in puppy crate without access to paper overnight. If she's moving about in cage during night that doesn't necessarily mean she needs a wee. In my experience they'll let you know if they do by whining persistently.
Good luck.

If she's doing that during the day as well then she could have something like cystitis - just another thought.

I've got a couple of 12 week pups and they're holding on 8 hours and more.  They go out for toilet after waking, feeding and playing and every couple of hours inbetween. They sleep 8 hours plus, depending on how much sleep I want. They're both in individual puppy crates. They were in my room to start off with for a few nights, and they've moved out only 'cause it's getting crowded ... 3 big dogs plus cat, so pups are downstairs ... it'll make them hardy!! Personally I would just leave her shut in puppy crate without access to paper overnight. If she's moving about in cage during night that doesn't necessarily mean she needs a wee. In my experience they'll let you know if they do by whining persistently

Agreed. Our twelve week old has been dry at night since he was just over nine weeks (touch wood), but we still hear him moving about in his crate, maybe with the odd mutter. It's completely different if he needs a wee, and people about ten doors down must be able to hear him if we're not there within about 30 seconds when he starts to cry at about 7am!

Ok - that's really helpful to know they act differently when they need out. The last couple of nights I've had to let her out at 330am but not at any other times. We haven't moved her out of the bedroom yet as there still doesn't seem to be much pattern of when we should get up to let her out. Does anyone have any suggestions about this?

Many thanks for all the advice

Do you let your pup out after her meal? Or does she have to hang on for a couple of hours (you said she generally 'goes' 2 hours later)?  I'm feeding mine their last meal at around 6pm and then put them outside about 15 minutes later ... I find if I put them out immediately after their meal they mess around and don't do anything, but this timescale seems to be right for them to perform.  I don't give them water in their crates overnight ... they have access to it at all other times of the day though.  We also have a mad play session for about 10 mins before bed time - with 2 pups it's easy, just toss them into a pen and they roar around with each other, with 1 you have to play with it. Play time over, outside to toilet then hopefully she'll be tired and might not wake you up.

I'm always amazed at how late people go to bed I rarely make it past 9pm.. So therefore was taking my pup out a few times every night.

He is now 5mths old and still goes out once during the night, but this is ONLY because i get up to go to the loo around 2am every single night, and he follows me out (he sleeps on our bed), and stands by the back door waiting to be let out, so by the time I'm finished he's back inside. He's picked up on my night time habit and is following suit. I'm hoping eventually he'll be too lazy to get up and will sleep through. It's not a habit i want him to get used to!

He will keep up with the habit unless you stop it, believe me!  However I would wait until he's about a year and definitely housetrained before you try.  Then, make sure he's empty as late as you can, and then go to the loo at 2am as quietly as you can, slowly, and if he moves, gently put him back or give him a hand signal to stay.  He'll get it.  I've been through it a few times, between old dogs and dogs on steroids, so I've had to undo the habit about 3 times now as I'm always up myself 2 or 3 times.  It's always the same dog too!

He will keep up with the habit unless you stop it, believe me!  However I would wait until he's about a year and definitely housetrained before you try

ooh boy, i was afraid of that. Ironically, i got up last night and he he didnt jump down, but just stood at the side of the bed, at which time hubby swiftly took him out lol We still have the memory of when Nugget peed in the middle of our bed fresh in our minds!

If i only i could learn to hold my bladder all night I swear it's the size of a grape...

My OH gets up at 3.30am for my spay incontinence bitch, but as he is over 80, he would most likely need to go himself anyway. The ten year old male stays in his bed, I swear he could go fourteen hours between his reservoir wees!