When we went to get our first ever dog scored it was not done under anesthetic.. she was literally lied down on her back and it was done...

However alot of people choose to get it done under anesthetic..

I dont know whats best..

How did you get yours scored and why did you choose it that way

thanks

Edited to add: i missed out the vital information that she was hip scored under sedation and not a GA. i wanted to know the difference between the two

Well the Vets reckon the deeper the anaesthetic, the more relaxed the dog and therefore get a better reading. Just what I have been told by Vets.

The BVA requires dogs to have either anaesthetic or deep sedation for the scoring scheme.  It's not a choice.

The dog needs to be totally relaxed to give the most accurate result. A conscious or semi-conscious dog will have some tension in the muscles which will give a false picture; fine for diagnosing whether or not the hips are bad, but no good for actual scoring purposes.

> she was literally lied down on her back and it was done...

Didn't she panic?

No she is a calm girl and although she was a little scared she just got on with it...
The people who did it were reccomended by abbies breeder and there were alot of dogs having it done..
I wouldnt do it again this way though because it was a bit of an ordeal for her.

Thats interesting about the BVA,because our vet seemed happy enough with us doing it this way..

i would never hipscore without sedation or anaesthetic, the hips get rotated round and taped together, if the dog panicked and leapt from table they would seriously hurt themselves.

Always had it under GA and have to say I wouldn't have it without some kind of sedation.  I was put off sedation after hearing that it was more difficult to bring a dog around from this if there was a problem than it was with a GA.  Luckily my dogs have always been fine.  Now it's an 8 month wait before my next one has to have her hips done!

> I was put off sedation after hearing that it was more difficult to bring a dog around from this if there was a problem than it was with a GA

My pup was xrayed under sedation (not for hip-scoring), I ws very suprised when I collected him as he marched out with the vet completely normal. I said to the vet I was expectiong him to be a bit sleepy from the sedation (remembering what my other dog was like after being sedated a few years before to have a hook!! removed from his snout), the vet said that the sedatives they use now are quickly reversed that's why he prefers to xray under sedation rather than a GA.
Maybe it's down to the sedatives the individual vet uses?

Some breeds do not cope well under general anaesthetic for whatever reason.  I know of many poodles of all sizes that have never recovered from a GA, which is why many St Poo breeders do not get hipscores done unless it is under sedation only.

the hips get rotated round and taped together,

I go to a Vet that does sedation and you are allowed to stay with the dog, only leave the room while the X-ray is happening and then return to your dog immediately after (approx 2 mins) The Vet has never taped any of my dogs.

how does he get the legs to stay straight and parallel? as a vet nurse, we get practical exams as well as written, and one of the practicals are radiographs, one is a bva hipscore, and that is the correct way to do it.
SR02 Page 1 of 2
SR02
2002: Occupational Standard Ref: VN 9.1, 2, 3; Syllabus Ref: 3.7.01, 3.7.05, 3.7.09
2006: Occupational Standard Ref: VetN 8.1, 8.2, 8.3
The owners of this German Shepherd dog have requested a radiograph of his hips to
be submitted to the BVA Kennel Club Hip Dysplasia Scheme for scoring.
The veterinary surgeon has asked you to set up the equipment and position the dog to
achieve this.
The dog is anaesthetised and is being monitored
Note: you are not expected to set exposure factors, change the focal film distance, or
to make an exposure. However, the examiner will ask you when you would be ready to
make the exposure.
METHODOLOGY You will be expected to:
Select medium or large sized cassette
Place cassette correct way up on the table
Select stationary grid to fit the cassette
Place grid exactly on top of cassette
Grid correct way up
Patient placed in dorsal recumbency
With pelvis positioned on the cassette
Sandbags or trough used to prevent rotation of the body
Sandbags placed over forelimbs/ limbs tied in position to stabilise the patient
Both hind limbs extended caudally
Hind limbs tied firmly to secure into position
Hind limbs rotated medially to bring femora parallel to each other (with patellae facing up
towards ceiling)
Hind limbs secured in this position (using ties, tape or Velcro)
Tail lying directly in midline
No rotation about the longitudinal axis of the body
Tube head lined up so that the primary beam is positioned over the hips and the cassette
L/R marker correctly placed
Label with KC registration number and date
Primary beam centred over pubic symphysis
Primary beam collimated to include: Wing of ilium
Mid-shaft femurs (may extend to patellae)
Labelling placed within primary beam
Collimated area does not overlap edges of the cassette
Correct positioning for BVA Kennel Club Hip Dysplasia Scheme (to include all necessary
equipment)
Correct centring and collimation

copied from www.rcvs.org.uk

meant to say we do this with a toy dog not a real one in examination lol

I have a very good relationship with my GP vets, however for hip/elbow scorng I go to another vet who uses a sling for Hip X rays & her X rays are done under GA for most breeds except those that are susceptible under GA. I was advised by a top Neurologist that in an emergency getting an animal quickly out of a GA was must more predictable that under sedation.

The hips naturally rotate into the required position & TBH I have never seen a poor placement not even slightly out from her. I know at least one CD member who has been to her & being highly satisfied. You do not have to leave the dog as you can wait whilst the plates are taken & developed & are given a very accurate estimate of teh score-she has never been wrong with any of my dogs.

ive just re read my post and its meant to say legs get rotated round and taped, not hips!

LOLOLOL & I meant the hip joint Doh senior moment ;-)

Just booked Jesse in for 10.20 next Wednesday & I will be on my way home before 12(lol Jill's afternoon off !)

Thanks for all of your replies! I do not stay in contact with the breeder that we got abbie from anymore as we do not agree with alot of her practices (now we are better informed and know more about the breed)

They literally put her on her pack and pulled her legs back so they were straight together.. makes me shudder when I think about it

She will be having one under GA in a few months

Ours have their hips/elbows done under sedation, not GA, i feel much happier with this method.

thats how its generally done, just kinder when the dog cant feel it!

We had hips done under sedation, our girl will still pretty with it throughout. But we still got a good score.  

>But we still got a good score.  

That, apparently, is the problem. Sedation can still mean some tenseness in the muscles that can lead to a score being slightly better than it would have been under a full anaesthetic.

I have heard this too but I'm not sure how to see it (problem or not).
Surely a dog in its normal everyday goings will have this tension there and maybe being out of it and "overly" relaxed actually gives false result?
I would think pulling when the dog is totally out of it will make the hip move more it would do when the dog is awake and in its normal state?

Anybody have some knowledge on this as I would love to know...

>That, apparently, is the problem. Sedation can still mean some tenseness in the muscles that can lead to a score being slightly better than it would have been under a full anaesthetic

I think this can apply only if a table & not a sling is used. Our Echo was x rayed under GA & his score was 0:0=0 which obviously cannot be bettered no matter what method is used on the dog

That, apparently, is the problem. Sedation can still mean some tenseness in the muscles that can lead to a score being slightly better than it would have been under a full anaesthetic

Oh I never thought of that! It is interesting, but surely the scores cannot differ majorly.

I think its strange how a dogs scores is the same throughout its lifetime because in humans the bones degrade with ages surely its the same for dogs. 

Yeh, well abbie wasnt completely lied down on her back with nothing.. she was given an inection to make her floppy.. but didnt put her to sleep... thats what i meant by the thread... as in not completely sleeping

sorry for confusion haha

So you meant that she was sedated?

that makes more sense gundoggal :)

Ah, so she was sedated - I was surprised a dog was happy to be tied on their back awake!

yeh sorry i was confused by the whole thing lol

i was meaning.. why do it under general anesthetic and why is it seen as better...

so yes basically she was sedated but not completely out

again sorry for not writing that in..

> i was meaning.. why do it under general anesthetic and why is it seen as better...
>

I asked my Hip Scoring specialist vet & she told me that if there is an emergency dogs under sedation take longer to bring round, whereas GA can be reversed(Rapinovet was the one of the quick reverible GAs)

>if there is an emergency dogs under sedation take longer to bring round

Longer than the 3 minutes it took to reverse my bitch's sedation for BAER many years ago?

>dogs under sedation take longer to bring round, whereas GA can be reversed

does this not depend on the dog.. I had a girl under sedation for minor treatment.. and we walked out of surgery after 5mins or so...

Tia.. went under GA for hip x-rays.. and we nearly lost her.. 3 reversal injections, a lot of panic.. and a few prayers were needed to bring her round..

She needed treatment when she literally ripped her side off on barbed wire during some field work, and she came out of the sedation quickly with no side effects..

> 3 reversal injections, a lot of panic.. and a few prayers were needed to bring her round..

Was this using Rapinovet ?

I had a Beardie who took 24 hours to come round using the old GA, but with Rapinovet it was within minutes. Under sedation it was the same as the old GA

MM.. I have no idea what was used.. I didnt ask...
(not like me).. but at the time was more concerned about her recovery.. it was only 4 years ago.. would that be within the timescale of the old GA?

>would that be within the timescale of the old GA

It depends on what GA your vet uses, Rapinovet is more expensive so some vets do not use it without being asked or asking.

some dogs take minutes to come around from a GA and others can take several hours to fully recover, depends on the dog, the condition pre GA, the duration of it and the combination of drugs used, ie was a premed given? also, keeping them warm whilst under can have an effect as well, the colder they are the longer it will take, so many things contribute.

Depends which type of drug is used for GA. The drug that predates Rapinovet was usually Thiopentine and this would stay in the system much, much longer. We recently had a (human) surgeon come into our practice to visit his cat who was an inpatient and he asked what type of anaesthetic we had used (cat had had an amputation) He was really suprised we use Rapi and laughed when he said he usually doesn't use it, even on his patients who go private!!
Also remember that when a dog/cat has a GA, the induction agent (Rapinovet) is injected via a vein, into the bloodstream. It is then maintained throughout the procedure on anaesthetic gas which can be altered very quickly, if the patient becomes too "light" or "deep" which you cannot control at all if the pet has a sedation. This is why I would always have my dogs hips done with a GA.
Ahhhhhh suz1985 the joys of the practical exam....brought back the cold sweats!!

in my place of work we tend to use propofol for an induction agent,also into the vein.
the practicals send fear into my heart, have never been so nervous as i was when i sat them!! only 2 years ago, how times flies. are you a qualified VN then setters4me?

I remember in the early 80's when the new scoring came into effect. I had a dog at the Dick Vet in Edinburgh for hip scoring.  they sedated him and he was just getting sleepy in the waiting room when a cat in a basket came in, that brought him back to reality.  The vet came to take him away and I asked if I could go with him as he would be hard for them to handle. the sedation was not having effect now, after seeing the cat. I was told no.  anyway about 15 mins later they came and asked if I could go and help, I said I would but didnt think it would help now as the poor dog had been stressed for 15 mins with people trying to get him into position.  It was a complete waste of time I said I would not put my dog through that.  If they had been used anesthetic it would have been better.

Rapinovet is the trade name of Propofol, suz1985.   I would be very surprised if any human surgeon use "Rapinovet" :-D

Diprivan is a human brand trade name of propofol Isabel. ;-)

http://www.drugs.com/diprivan.html

ETA link. :-)

oops, well seeing im a medical nurse and am rarely in theatre :)

Oh yes, I know it is routinely used but human patients might be a little insulted if given anything "...vet" :-D

> oops, well seeing im a medical nurse and am rarely in theatre

Don't worry, human medics are encouraged to always use generic names too :-)

Aha... you were replying to Setters4me not suz1985 like you said. I get it now. :-D

> you were replying to Setters4me not suz1985 like you said.

Well I started replying to suz1985 but then threw in a bit for Setters4me! :-D

oh trust me to confuse matters and yes, it is Propofol!!
suz1985 yes, qualified some time ago now but the practicals took 3 attempts. My only happy memory of them is that I got 100% in my vd hips and for some reason remember all the anotomical landmarks etc. Since having a baby I only work 1 day a week, good job as brain is slowly turning to mush!

> Well I started replying to suz1985 but then threw in a bit for Setters4me!

Trust you Isabel. ;-) All the confusion is making my head hurt. :-D

:-)    <---- innocent smile