Hi, just had to post on here to let off steam!!! One of the Mum's at my son's school bought a labradoodle bitch for £750 two years ago. Just in conversation this afternoon in the playground I was told that she had found a chocolate standard poodle dog to use at stud. I had to ask if she had had the bitch hip scored and eye tested. I'm sure that you can all guess what her reply was!!
She insisted that the breeder had had her bitch hip scored before she got her as a puppy. She had no idea of any of the health tests both the original breeds needed to have.
One of the reasons I've posted on here is because this has now left me wandering if you can get the health tests done on these designer breeds in the same way we have them done on KC registered dogs. Does anyone know?
Also can she really advertise any resulting pups as Labradoodles?

Yes the health tests can be done hipscoring and eye examination can be done on any dog either pedigree crossbreed or mongrel. There is also a DNA test available for labradoodle for pcrd-PRA

Too answer the second part of your question you can call a pup anything you like, the only problem would be if she called it a poodle and the person who bought it took a civil action because they suspected or had confirmed that the puppy brought was not as described.

Thank you for your reply, although not sure if I'd even attempt to mention DNA tests. I'm sure she'd just glaze over!! I know it's her bitch and she can do what she likes with her but she's not even a "good looking" labradoodle. If you saw her walking down the street you'd think she was just a big black scruffy mutt!!

Another test for poodles - and therefore I would have thought for their crosses also - is sebaceous adenitis.

Labradoodles are mutts.  We can call them cross breeds or whatever, but at the end of the day - mutts.   Meaning that what combination of body parts and breed traits end up in puppies of mixed breed dogs is anyone's guess.

Labradoodles are the worlds biggest con!  They were "developed" with the best intentions, as the ultimate guide dog by the Australian Guide Dogs for the blind, but because they failed miserabley at that now the puppy famers have cashed in.  Which is a reall shame, all those poor dogs.  I had heard that the Australian group had stopped breeding them because they were too unpredictable, behaviourally and physically.  It seems like poodles aren't a good breed to cross with unfortunately.  There are doodle breeders over here who health test, but there are still too many that don't, and because there is no definite "type" it is unlikely that they will ever be recognised officially as a breed.

Yes they can be hipscores and their worst score is 86 worse than many of the pedigrees!!  Bit of a joke really.  There are a few other crossbreeds that are trying to be made into breeds on there and theyare just as bad if not worse!

Ad in local 'freeads' for lab-doodles started with..............'KC reg'  :-O,
I rang up and asked about them, 'yes they are reg with KC .....on the activities register'. I then said 'what about these health tests they have done?' answer, the lab bitch had hips done 5-8 so she was ok and the poodle dog was .......very fit and healthy!!!!!!!!!
Oh yes price... £850 :-O
Chris

tatty-ead,

did you send a copy of this advert to Passionate Productions? I do hope so!

All these crosses are just narrowing the gene pools of pedigree dogs due to the fact that some perfectly good pedigree bitches are being used to produce cross breeds.  Also because their is no kc reg on these animals imagine how many well meaning breeders have placed indorsements to try and stop breeding for it to happen anyway.

As for the can she advertise, I have looked into the whole labradoodle thing just to see why people pay so much and if she crosses a doodle to a poodle then you get a 2nd gen doodle which apparently is better allergy wise and the coat is curlier.  So more expensive.

Why not buy a poodle!!! if you want to pay that much for a dog that will look like a really bad example of one!!!

This has started to appear with my breed now (mini dachshunds), we had been lucky till this point with just getting the odd russell x dachshund (make good ratters apparently) but now we have had poodle x dachshund and get this springer x standard dachshund.  I have now met a lady who had a dach-oodle and it was the meanest thing alive.  Not very good personalites to put together let alone health tests that it hadnt had.  She spoke to me at a small open show asking if she could use my dog as a stud, not realising she ment to the thing that was trying to attack everyone as it went past.

The whole subject really bugs me.

Emma

The breeds we have today were all created with a purpose in mind.  The "designer crosses" only purpose in life is to make their "breeder" money.  As I said, there were good intentions with the labradoodle as a guide dog, and the cocker-poo as a hearing dog for the deaf.  It is just so ufortunate that they have been more successful as money-makers than at anything else - they have been bred selfishly - and for that reason alone I think they should be boycotted. 

>The breeds we have today were all created with a purpose in mind.  The "designer crosses" only purpose in life is to make their "breeder" money.

That's just your opinion, my "designer crosses" or mutts as many of you like to call them were created to make a non shedding, first generation (F1) healthy pet. The benefits and nature of hybrid vigour or heterosis in mixed breeds such as Labradoodles has been known of some some time.

I own a much loved 13 year old spayed pug which has blind since she was 7, couldn't walk more than 100 yards if the weather was warm without been in distress even as a young dog and when I bought her home, (she came from a well known breeder who shows pugs) the vet informed me she had a hernia.If I had known the suffering this little dog was going to undergo in her life with health issue i would most certainly not have bought her. I have spent probably thousands of pounds on veterinary treatment over the years for countless, and I'm not exaggerating when I say countless problems.  She has had eye drops twice day for the last 6 years, and health wise her life has been a misery.   She is a charming character and dearly loved, but her health issues and suffering make me believe that my happy healthy little "mutts"  have a much better quality of life life than many pedigree dogs that some of the self righteous breeders on this site breed.

Liz_R

> That's just your opinion, my "designer crosses" or mutts as many of you like to call them were created to make a non shedding, first generation (F1) healthy pet.

So you breed to sell pets? How is that not breeding for money?I'm not a breeder and certainly wouldn't consider myself self righteous but I am concerned about the numbers of crossbreeds in rescue.Have any breed rescues been set up for these "designer" versions yet?

The benefits and nature of hybrid vigour or heterosis in mixed breeds such as Labradoodles has been known of some some time.

So how come there have been hipscores as high as 86 in Labradoodles...........?

>That's just your opinion, my "designer crosses" or mutts as many of you like to call them were created to make a non shedding, first generation (F1) healthy pet. The benefits and nature of hybrid vigour or heterosis in mixed breeds such as Labradoodles has been known of some some time.

But they aren't all non shedding are they for a start ? Of course all Standard Poodles are non shedding so why cross with a breed that sheds continually ?????

Hybrid vigour is an urban myth when the animals/plants etc are of the same species.  Are these cross breeds hip scores better that the Labradors & Standard Poodles ?  Is the incidence of epilepsy in this cross any less than in Labradors & Standard Poodles ?

Purely breeding to produce dogs that are simply & solely for pets & nothing else is breeding for money.  Why is this cross sold at such high prices ? & quite wrongly stated to be a non allergic reaction producing dog because they alleged all do not shed ? Allergic reactions to dogs are caused not by the dogs coat, but the dander(or dead skin cells)which all dogs, in fact all mammals (including humans)shed.

My dogs are all pedigree dogs(one is from non KC registered parents-he's an ISDS dog)they ahave had much less veterinary attention that the cross breeds I have had in the past & have cost me a lot less at the vets(not that I have ever calculated the costs).

BTW henias do not affect a dog's quality of life & surely on a smooth coated breed like a Pug you must have seen it

    >The breeds we have today were all created with a purpose in mind.  The "designer crosses" only purpose in life is to make their "breeder" money.

That's just your opinion, my "designer crosses" or mutts as many of you like to call them were created to make a non shedding, first generation (F1) healthy pet. The benefits and nature of hybrid vigour or heterosis in mixed breeds such as Labradoodles has been known of some some time.

I own a much loved 13 year old spayed pug which has blind since she was 7, couldn't walk more than 100 yards if the weather was warm without been in distress even as a young dog and when I bought her home, (she came from a well known breeder who shows pugs) the vet informed me she had a hernia.If I had known the suffering this little dog was going to undergo in her life with health issue i would most certainly not have bought her. I have spent probably thousands of pounds on veterinary treatment over the years for countless, and I'm not exaggerating when I say countless problems.  She has had eye drops twice day for the last 6 years, and health wise her life has been a misery.   She is a charming character and dearly loved, but her health issues and suffering make me believe that my happy healthy little "mutts"  have a much better quality of life life than many pedigree dogs that some of the self righteous breeders on this site breed.

Liz_R

I don't breed lol, I'm a scientist!  But my pedigree poodles are a lot more mentally stable than any poo cross I've met - I do know of 1 who has just got his Gold Good Citizen award and the Trainer was in shock so there are always those that buck the trend.  Hybrid vigour works by outcrossing, but not when both parent's carry bad hips or eyes.  Unlike maths, two wrongs don't make a right when breeding.  I have stated that there are cross breeders who health test so I am not tarring all cross breeders as irresponsible, however very few F1 labradoodles are non shedding (I believe it is a recessive trait).  They are not used for the original purpose they were developed for, as a guide dog as I stated.  And poodles are HYPERallergenic - the oil in their coats and the dander is the most highly allergenic of any other breed.  They are good for those with asthma (a reaction to the hair) and thats about it.  Pugs have no recommended health tests, which is silly, but that is down to the breed society.  Having known of many unhealthy pugs, I'd never have one (can't have anything that snores louder than me or I'd never get my beauty sleep).  Like it or not, puppy farmers have cashed in on the cross breed market.  I think that is the whole point of this thread. 

labradoodles are just mutts, crossbreeds and anyone breeding them for the pet market
are nothing more than BYB or puppy farmers,
just the same as some pedigree dog  breeders who are doing the same
why breed for the  pet market if you do not show or work your dogs
and they do it for one thing only
money
i have seen enough of these mutts at training classes ,
most are uncontrolable, bought by people thinking they got a designer dog
who can not do a  thing with them
and  think because they paid £700 to 800 ,they are better than a health tested well bred pedigree
are your health tested ?
unless dogs are health tested, no one can claim they breed healthy dogs
you will not know

> were created to make a non shedding

Are both parents non shedding then?  I presume they have to be to ensure this is the case so why not just have one or other of the parent breed.

> have a much better quality of life life than many pedigree dogs that some of the self righteous breeders on this site breed.

Presumably you have managed to source healthy pedigrees in order to produce your crossbreeds so again why not just continue the breeding of them to the same standard as your stocks breeders.

Liz R have you even bothered looking at the BVA site with your crosses hipscores on them?  If you haven't I would if I was you they are no more healthier than any pedigree, actually compaired to many pedigrees they are worse.

Most Labrador/Poodles that I have seen moult, are a handful to train and look nothing like each other.

I might be wrong but I don't think Liz R breeds labrador/poodle crosses.  It's some other equally incomprehensible cross breed.  Perhaps she will remind us.

My original question was asking if it was possible to do health tests on these dogs. Liz R perhaps you can answer that question for me as you are already breeding these dogs?

What I have found since starting in my breed (which is a minority one)  is the amount of help and advice I've received from other owners, especially in making sure that I am aware of the lines behind my dogs. I have also been made aware of how much time and effort it takes to properly raise a litter and that is isn't always a bed of roses!

I just feel that the person I know with this Labradoodle bitch is breeding because "it will be lovely to have puppies" I don't think that she is truly aware of how much hard work it will be and that she could have a litter of 8+ to raise and rehome. Also, in the future, there could be the possibility of brother/sister matings if the owners don't ask enough questions about where each dog came from.

I was talking to a friend this afternoon, who is a dog trainer locally to me, about this situation and she commented on the number of these cross breeds she sees coming to her club and the varietion in type and size. She also said that in her opinion poodles were not the ideal breed to use in a cross litter and that people were taken in by the pups looks and did not look at adult temprament.

My original question was asking if it was possible to do health tests on these dogs. Liz R perhaps you can answer that question for me as you are already breeding these dogs?

What I have found since starting in my breed (which is a minority one)  is the amount of help and advice I've received from other owners, especially in making sure that I am aware of the lines behind my dogs. I have also been made aware of how much time and effort it takes to properly raise a litter and that is isn't always a bed of roses!

I just feel that the person I know with this Labradoodle bitch is breeding because "it will be lovely to have puppies" I don't think that she is truly aware of how much hard work it will be and that she could have a litter of 8+ to raise and rehome. Also, in the future, there could be the possibility of brother/sister matings if the owners don't ask enough questions about where each dog came from.

I was talking to a friend this afternoon, who is a dog trainer locally to me, about this situation and she commented on the number of these cross breeds she sees coming to her club and the varietion in type and size. She also said that in her opinion poodles were not the ideal breed to use in a cross litter and that people were taken in by the pups looks and did not look at adult temprament.

Yes the tests are there.  Hip scoring & eye exams & the genetic markers should be able to be picked up if the parentage is known for tests such as Optigen.  But many of the people who like the lady you have been talking to are unaware of these tests.  Ideally you should test for ALL the problems associated with BOTH parent breeds.  Very costly, and if done would justify the high price tag.  IMO as a poodle owner, they are not a good breed to cross with - don't ask my why, I can only hypothesise.  As a very intelligent breed, they are very human, and it seems to be the worst traits that are passed onto the offspring.  It's almost like a sign saying "don't mess with things you don't understand".  It's also important to keep a comprehensive record of the family tree and to educate the owner what the "pedigree" actually means.  But Joe Public will always know better.  I surely hope the lady you spoke to gets turned down by the stud dogs owner - unfortunately too many people are eager to pimp their dogs out.

Incidentally, the choc poodle wouldn't have been found on the internet?  As if it is the one I am thinking of, the owners have a fleet of other breeds of dogs offered at stud.  They also breed a fair few cross breeds themselves.  So chances are the poo has been overused so it would not be wise to use him again.

The impression I got was that the stud dog was all arranged. I didn't ask where he was from. I'll be interested in what colour pups she'll have from this litter as I'm sure the bitch was from a yellow lab/ black poodle mating.

As they are a cross breed they will definitely not be affected by any of the problems that can arise in either breeds as both parents have to carry the gene. First crosses are often more healthy than pure breds and have better temperaments.

Hows about that for an advert then :( Couldn't believe my eyes. Not doodles, two different breeds, but ...welll....

As they are a cross breed they will definitely not be affected by any of the problems that can arise in either breeds as both parents have to carry the gene. First crosses are often more healthy than pure breds and have better temperaments.

Piffle!  I feel sorry that Joe Public will be thinking they are doing a good thing by getting a cross breed since this Pedigrees Exposed programme went out - they are going to learn the hard way.  I would paticularly recommend a pedigree dog for a fist time buyer, simply because for the most part they will know what to expect.  Interestingly, HD is not a common complaint in Standard Poodles.  An American dog brought it over fairly recently.  So goodness knows why so many labradoodles have HD!

I surely hope the lady you spoke to gets turned down by the stud dogs owner - unfortunately too many people are eager to pimp their dogs out.

Too right. I went for a mammogram fairly recently and got talking to the lady on reception. She told me she had a lovely standard Poodle. Then came the great one, 'he has produced some lovely puppies to a Labrador'. All I could say was, but they are mongrels! and there are already a lot of those looking for homes in rescues. She then proceeded to tell me that they would be repeating the mating!!!!!!!!! Oh, and also told me how much they went for but by that time I was walking away, didn't want to hear.

I don't keep any crossbreeds and never had, but that is more to do with the lack of certainty as to what traits they will carry, rather than for any moral or status related reason.

However, I am taken by how vigorously dog breeders attack people who are trying to develop a new breed, compared with those working with other animals. Many of the breeds of cat and chicken (yes, laugh at the comparison) that we have today were developed in the last 30 years and recognised once it can be demonstrated that they can breed true. The people who achieve this are generally celebrated in their relative communities. Why is this so, when people who seek to develop new strains of dog are criticised and called "back yard breeders" and "puppy farmers"?

Just interested. I don't have a particularly strong view so long as the parents and pups (pedigree or cross breed) are suitably health checked and raised in a loving environment.

Most of these breeders are not trying to develop another breed. They have no set aim in mind as to size, coat or what makes a breed a breedand most importantly temperament. They do not work with the numbers that would be required either and on the whole just keep doing the F1 cross of one breed to another breed that isn't how any previous breed have  been established. Also in this modern day the methods of breeding towards a the goal of a new breed would not be accepted as puppies that did not meet the requirements were removed from the breeding programme. Do you know of one of these crossbreeds that breed true and to type?

However, I am taken by how vigorously dog breeders attack people who are trying to develop a new breed, compared with those working with other animals. Many of the breeds of cat and chicken (yes, laugh at the comparison) that we have today were developed in the last 30 years and recognised once it can be demonstrated that they can breed true. The people who achieve this are generally celebrated in their relative communities. Why is this so, when people who seek to develop new strains of dog are criticised and called "back yard breeders" and "puppy farmers"?

By no means is this a slight at those working tirelessly to bring back old breeds or start new ones - I believe it is very successful in the Working and Field community (the sprocker springs to mind).  What angers the pedigree world is all the advertisements you see stating that these pups are healthier than both pedigree parents and have better temperaments (why breed from them then?).  Labradoodles were developed with good intentions, but as stated previously they were unable to fulfil their function in life.  The byb and puppy farmers have cashed in on "designer breeds" meaning too many of the parent dogs are sub-breed standard and not health tested.  And I have no problems with developing a new breed so long as it has a function.  All our current dog breeds served a function - whether it be keeping tibetan monks hands warm during meditation or hunting for truffles - they were not created on a whim like many cross breeds today.

Plus, poor Joe Public is muggins enough to be conned into spending a fortune on a cross breed when he can go down the shelter and get one for £60!  That is what really ticks me off!

The reason our breeds have the problems that they do have is because of reduced gene pools through various bottlenecks that have occurred during a breeds existence. 

Not only mistakes by breeders by using  dog too often etc, but practical things like two world Wars that meant numbers of dogs kept back for restarting breeding was limited etc.

In order to create a breed you need to produce an awful lot of puppies simply to discard most of them from the breeding program.

In order to get a wide enough gene pool you would need to do this over an over an over.

There is no moral justification for doing this when the resulting breed has no real purpose and there are already well over 400 breed available world wide to fulfil any need there may be.

Far better to concentrate on preserving and improving (including getting rid of the problems inadvertently bred in) than trying to rediscover the wheel.  There are breeds in danger of extinction who would benefit from the kind of people who want to be pioneers in breeding.

Most breeds emerged over centuries from preexisting types and were refined or split into more types and became breeds, so even though most Kennel clubs are under 150 years old breeds or types of the canine race existed long before this.

In fact it is some of the more ancient types that still seem to be the healthiest (thinking sight hounds and some Spitz breeds here).

However, I am taken by how vigorously dog breeders attack people who are trying to develop a new breed, compared with those working with other animals. Many of the breeds of cat and chicken (yes, laugh at the comparison) that we have today were developed in the last 30 years and recognised once it can be demonstrated that they can breed true. The people who achieve this are generally celebrated in their relative communities. Why is this so, when people who seek to develop new strains of dog are criticised and called "back yard breeders" and "puppy farmers

Because it has mostly nothing to do with developing new breeds, it is purely monetary based. That is why they are called BYB and Puppy Farmers, because mostly they are.! Like the lady I quoted, she didn't mention what a good strain of Labradoodles they were breeding, but she did mention how much they were selling for.

Some fair points there. I agree that producing countless F1 crosses is ultimately pointless, and Brainless' comment regarding the number of rare breeds that could be worked is valid and one that I rarely hear raised.

One question regarding purpose. Is it true that there are really no breeds out there at all that were originally created because of a fashion, say among the upper classes, for a dog that looked a certain way?

Well the toy or Companion breeds purpose was to keep peoples laps warm, but these are exactly the breeds being criticised for being caricatures and unsound being bred just for their looks and to be purse/lap dogs, so we have been here before and it wasn't in the dogs interest.

So for those who wish to preserve these breeds but improve on the negative aspects there is plenty of scope for their work without crossing them with breeds with their own problems.

For example why cross a Pom with a Chihuahua?

...or a poodle with a maltese!

>I might be wrong but I don't think Liz R breeds labrador/poodle crosses.  It's some other equally incomprehensible cross breed.  Perhaps she will remind us.

I don't breed labradoodles, I have Bichon girls, but no stud dog. At the moment I am expecting a litter of Bichon X Maltese.

>So you breed to sell pets? How is that not breeding for money?

I breed because I enjoy it and so does my husband, we get great pleasure from our dogs. We are both very maternal. They are reared with no expense or care spared in our home amongst our family and other pets. They are also homed very very carefully. My pups are just as carefully and painstakingly reared as any other persons on this forum. You can call me a BYB if you want, I prefer hobby breeder. Who dictates that you have to show or work dogs to be a reputable breeder? Breeders on this forum say they don't make any money from a litter of puppies, but that's twaddle. I spend any amount of money that's needed to rear them correctly, any necessary veterinary treatment is given, they are fed a natural healthy diet and I make some money along the way, but I don't pretend I don't like some people on here.

>My dogs are all pedigree dogs(one is from non KC registered parents-he's an ISDS dog)they ahave had much less veterinary attention that the cross breeds I have had in the past & have cost me a lot less at the vets(not that I have ever calculated the costs).

BTW henias do not affect a dog's quality of life & surely on a smooth coated breed like a Pug you must have seen it

I haven't calculated what my pugs cost me, but I know it's a lot of money and if I had does that make me a bad owner. Not everyone has an bottomless pit of money.
I didn't see my pugs hernia, the vet pointed it out to me when I took her for her vaccinations. When I went to see her at the breeders, an hour and a half away she was 5 weeks old. I thought I was going to see the pups and meet the breeder and pick her up in 2 weeks time. To my surprise she was handed over to me then to take home. I was so surprised I took her, poor little baby. So by the time she was 10 weeks old (vacs), i had already had her for 5 weeks and there was no way she was going back and I had the hernia repaired.

>Liz R have you even bothered looking at the BVA site with your crosses hipscores on them?  If you haven't I would if I was you they are no more healthier than any pedigree, actually compaired to many pedigrees they are worse.

Yes I have, and OptiGen and Animal Health Trust. I don't breed Labradoodles. Have you bothered to look up Bichons or Maltese.

Liz

> Have you bothered to look up Bichons or Maltese.
>
>

Is a coincidence that these breeds are cheap to health screen?

> Breeders on this forum say they don't make any money from a litter of puppies, but that's twaddle.

Call me Mrs Twaddle then but you're reading the words of one such person and if you wish to dispute this please do.

> We are both very maternal.

Don't tell your husband you said that - he might prefer paternal. ;-)

> I didn't see my pugs hernia, the vet pointed it out to me when I took her for her vaccinations.

Did you not feel it? I check for bite, testicles and hernias before getting a puppy.

> So by the time she was 10 weeks old (vacs), i had already had her for 5 weeks

That rings warning bells... no reputable breeder would let a pup leave for a new home at 5 weeks old. :-( Not every breeder is reputable - but to suggest that all pedigree dog breeders are therefore the same is a huge generalisation!

> You can call me a BYB if you want, I prefer hobby breeder

But what is your hobby? To me a hobby breeder is someone that shows their dogs,showing is their hobby,breeding to show and carry on their lines,guardians of their  chosen breed(some of which have been around for centuries).What exactly is your breed? Why not breed Bichons? I assume they must have come from a good breeder?What does he/she think about you crossing them with another breed to fulfill your maternal instinct?

Breeders on this forum say they don't make any money from a litter of puppies, but that's twaddle. I spend any amount of money that's needed to rear them correctly, any necessary veterinary treatment is given, they are fed a natural healthy diet and I make some money along the way, but I don't pretend I don't like some people on here.

Well for a start you will save on registration costs! AND Club membership fees, show entries, petrol to get to shows -the list goes on! It isn't ONLY the cost of REARING a litter that goes into it, it's everything. Making sure both the parents are good enough to breed from means going to shows or working tests of whatever kind all over the country, most weekends of the year -that's what responsible breeders DO.

If you make money from your crossbreeds, then you clearly charge a lot. I had an accidental first cross 6 years ago. I sold the pups for £50 each so made a huge loss there. But they were MUTTS so there  was no way on earth I was going to charge pedigree prices.