Another post (entitled THIS MORNING) has started to stray toward training methods, so I'd thought I'd start a new one here.

I looked into clicker training and although it looks very effective I was not keen on relying on the clicker box so decided against it but took some tips from the method.
To start with I 'charged up' the phrase 'good boy' with treats, as you would with the clicker. I started this the second day I had pup & in that day he learnt to 'sit' on command :)

I am amazed at how easy I have managed to teach Buster things, I was aware that Mastiffs are not known for thier obiedience skills and have a tendency to comply when they feel like it, but using Busters main motivation (food) I have managed much more than I thought I ever could using reward based training, I will use a 'no' occasionally (namely when he's trying to chase the cat). I was extremely aware of the posibility of a Mastiff to be shy/wary or strangers and have put a lot of effort into getting him to like everybody he meets, this has been simple with reward based training, strangers = a treat! I now need to shape this behaviour into stranger = be calm & you'll get a treat as he's learnt that as stranger = treats they are very exiting (I'll remember that for the next pup!!).

Buster is 14 months old now so & I still have a lot of work to do to get him through the 'teenage' stage and into a well behaved adult and every now & then he has a 'blip', but I am very proud of what we've achieved so far.
99.9% of the time I can walk him past other dogs on a slack lead, even if the other dogs are barking/growling/jumping about, 99% I can walk him on a slack lead past adults, if they say hello he then needs reminding to behave as he thinks hello=interaction begins!!. 99.99999% of the time I can walk him THROUGH groups of children plaiyng on bikes & kicking a ball, screaming & shouting, he keeps right next to me on a slack lead and if I slow down he'll sit & wait for a command.
Im especially proud of his behaviour outside as he is a very big, powerfull dog this is where I really needed to make sure I could keep him under control as I do not want him to be a nusance to other people/dogs or scare anybody.

I saw an episode of Dog Borstal a couple of weeks ago, I was completely shocked at the bullying tactics that were used on the dogs, one woman had to constantly shout at and squirt her dog in the face for pulling to get to things - I was disgusted, if I can get my dog (who is heavier than me & MUCH stronger than me) to walk through distractions on a slack lead using lure & reward methods then there is no reason why somebody with a smaller dog can't. I know my Mastiff would not have responded to those harse methods very well atall and god forbid somebody who suggested I do that to my dog, surely that errodes all trust and IMO trust is very important, especially when you have a dog that is too big to physically boss around - he has to WANT to work with you.

I have had moments when I've doubted the reward based training, but I've stuck too it and noticed whenever I've started to struggle it is down to me forgetting to praise the desired behaviour or loosing my cool and paniking (my dog will not listen to panick!!). Timing is essesntial for praise & distraction/lure and reward.
It's been the experienced posters on CD that have made me stick to reward based training and I would never use anything different now. (I don't post much for help, but do spend a lot of time reading advice given to others).

Thank you CDers reward based training is the way :)
For anybody thinking about getting a dog/puppy or struggling with thier dog/pups behaviour, if I can get a huge stubborn mastiff to comply with reward based training - you can do it with your dog, motivation, timing, consistency & patience is what you need.

> I will use a 'no' occasionally (namely when he's trying to chase the cat)

You could use " what's zzzissssss" in a very excited squeaky tone - replace the cat chase drive with something gooooood for recall.

I dont know if you've read the excellent original book from Karen Pryor " Don't shoot the dog".
Excellent intro into shaping behaviour and great insight into how our animals are shaping our own behaviours all the time.
I love the story of how an ape (undergoing positive reinforcement training) gave the trainer a banana for opening the slide in its cage :-)
It also explains how this method is used for very large animals which cannot be coerced into an action eg Killer whales.

I've trained an aggressive mastiff with a clicker - he was terrorising us through our fence every day and in danger of coming through.  After about 6 months of this I'd had enough, my dog was afraid to go in our garden and so was my child.  The owner thought it very amusing :(   So....  I clicker trained him - after an initial shout at him to get his attention ;)    He was a very biddable pup originally tho ;)  It took about a week to teach him to stop trying to kill us, sit, Lie down, stay, come :-D    The owner never twigged   but it saved the dog some beatings too as he listened more to the owner too (who had only 'trained' him to be aggressive )

On the other hand, I tried for 6 years ( yes 6 years! ) to train my small Bedlington to stop lunging while out walking (not food or toy motivated when outside), by then I had two and the younger one was superb, never pulls or lunges!    Eventually the lunger did it once too often and busted my knee, it took over 6 months to heal and was very painful to walk.  I realised I was getting nowhere with the methods I had tried and decided for my own safety and hers to try a check chain collar.   Took her out on her own and the first time of using it she got the idea (didn't allow it to go tight, threw it forwards and down, so just a shake and noise around her neck)   By the second day she was wearing it as a necklace attached to her normal collar - so no check at all ;)  She has never needed it since!

Sometimes you have to admit that the positive methods aren't working, but they do on most dogs if given a chance ;)

> You could use " what's zzzissssss" in a very excited squeaky tone - replace the cat chase drive with something gooooood for recall.
>

Thanks Toolz.

He was getting really good with the cat as I would tell him 'nicely' (he knows that to mean gentle & calm) he was getting the idea that calm behaviour around the cat would be rewarded. He's got bad in the last week since our old dog was PTS, even though he didn't play with the old dog (too old for playing in the last few months :( ) I think he's missing him.

The "what's zzzzisssss" is something I use a lot and Busters really responsive to that, it's so stupid that I hadn't thought to use it when he chases the cat. I keep doing things like this, he'll be great at somehting, then have a 'blip' and I find myslef stuck how to rectify it.

>I love the story of how an ape (undergoing positive reinforcement training) gave the trainer a banana for opening the slide in its cage

That's brilliant. I haven't read that book but it is now on my shopping list.

> Sometimes you have to admit that the positive methods aren't working, but they do on most dogs if given a chance

Shaping for a desired behaviour is a piece of cake compared to shaping for the absence of one :-( Dont I know it... I have a 'squeaky' cavalier .......But it can be done :-)

> it is now on my shopping list

A word of caution..... you'll be shaping your family and friends before you know it...LOL

> I've trained an aggressive mastiff with a clicker - he was terrorising us through our fence every day and in danger of coming through.&nbsp; After about 6 months of this I'd had enough, my dog was afraid to go in our garden and so was my child.&nbsp; The owner thought it very amusing :-(&nbsp;&nbsp; So....&nbsp; I clicker trained him - after an initial shout at him to get his attention ;-)&nbsp; &nbsp; He was a very biddable pup originally tho ;-)&nbsp; It took about a week to teach him to stop trying to kill us, sit, Lie down, stay, come :-D&nbsp; &nbsp; The owner never twigged <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">&nbsp; but it saved the dog some beatings too as he listened more to the owner too (who had only 'trained' him to be aggressive <IMG alt=mad src="/images/mad.gif"> )
>

That is awfull of the owner allowing that beahvior to happen well done for training him, that must have taken some courage as it must have been very frightening to see a huge dog trying to get at you aggresively :(
I've been lucky in not having to teach Buster to ignore things in the garden, our old dog was deaf and Buster as a pup would look at the old dog whenever he heard anything outside, as the old dog couldn't hear he would just ignore it, so pup followed suit, now Buster may look at a noise but never reacts, he even didn't bother while the nextdoor neighbours dog was sat in his garden howling yesterday.

I don't know if the method I've used for lead-walking is classed as positive? I've just stood still and refused to move if there is tension on the lead. But to stop lunging I've used treats as a distraction I don't know what I would have done if he wasn't food motivated (not toy/play motivated).

>Sometimes you have to admit that the positive methods aren't working, but they do on most dogs if given a chance

good point, but I think a lot of people give up on the positive methods far too quickly in a lot of cases it is the owners timing/motivation that is lacking and not that the dog is unresponsive to positive methods. 6 years!!! - you gave it more than a fair chance :)

> A word of caution..... you'll be shaping your family and friends before you know it...LOL

Great - maybe my OH will be doing more housework LOL.

Oh I know you know how to shape that behavior :-)

Oooh good thread :)

I clicker train - i use other variations on positive reward training as well, but for initially teaching a new trick or behaviour, I will usually use a clicker.

What I struggle to get my head round, is why people WOULDNT and DONT want to use positive reward based training. Its more effective and infinately less risky than any other teaching method.. and surely we own dogs because we enjoy their company and want a positive, relaxed relationship with them...

>What I struggle to get my head round, is why people WOULDNT and DONT want to use positive reward based >training. Its more effective and infinately less risky than any other teaching method.. and surely we own dogs >because we enjoy their company and want a positive, relaxed relationship with them...  

Totally agree :-D

For a start it gives you a much better relationship with your dog (or OH LOL )

>That is awfull of the owner allowing that beahvior to happen well done for training him, that must have taken >some courage as it must have been very frightening to see a huge dog trying to get at you aggresively

The dog was also barking most of the day and night too, it had to be dealt with but the owner wouldn't have cared how the dog affected anyone else ;)
The owner was a thug - there's no other word for it - and the dog was an extension of his ego ;)  (I think he's challenged in the trouser department as he's also into noisy flash cars that sound like formula one - but without the performance LOL )

I just got desperate one day as I could see the fence wasn't going to last much longer and was scared for my child.  I knew it could be done because the dog was such a biddable pup ;)  I also knew that the lack of positive input from the owner would work in my favour ;)  I was the only good thing happening in that dogs day - by that stage the owner was only throwing the dog food and occasionally taking it inside for 5 mins to show off it's aggression   Once I was able to train it the dog was treated a bit better by his owner too as he understood what was asked of him ;)  

Well here is one for you ladies :

One of my puppies will keep going into the waste bin in my bedroom and pinching used cotton buds... YUKKK

Now this evening I saw her do it and as she went toward the bin I said aaahahhh and she stopped instantly.
I know I should shape her to avoid this behaviour and by 'cutting to the chase' I have saved waiting for her to offer this herself .....and have the added bonus of being able to instantly reward the absence of the unwanted behaviour.

Do old habits die hard or is there a place for this negative intervention?

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

>Do old habits die hard or is there a place for this negative intervention?

Having more than one dog and now a pup of 6 months, I have noticed that the older two will give the pup a warning, ranging from just halting and 'looking', a sort of 'sniff'/blow from the nose, a low grumble/growl, to a more forceful 'verbal mock attack' (very rare)  as the pup is beginning to lose her 'puppy license' :-)   As she gets better at listening, so the warnings are becoming more subtle.    Nothing is 'followed through' and there is no violence.  It is also instantly forgotten the second pup alters her behaviour.

I think there's a lot to learn from this.  I have noticed too that any warnings I give the older two - not very often lol - also can be more subtle, so rather than saying NO! or even shouting (one of mine would have heart failiure if 'Mam' shouted! ) I can give a Tch! or an Ah! and they listen to it :-)  Sometimes I'll just 'freeze' and give them a 'look' and they understand this too - especially where food (ours) is concerned ;)

I'm also noticing that the pup listens well to this and combined with praise and treats it's stopped a lot of unwanted behaviour before it becomes a habit. 

I still love clicker training for things I want her to learn, it makes her think and she loves learning new things :-)

but where unwanted behaviours have their own 'payoff' for a pup, doing nothing could result in a vets visit or worse :(

I think the reason that the trainers at dog borstal use such harsh methods is they only have about 3 days to turn the dog around to pass this test? so using shock tactic's is a quicker way of getting a dog that ignores you to listen.
We all know once we have a dog thinking and taking notice your half way there in getting them to do what there told.
At least they don't resort to lifting up by the collar and throttling the life out of it or pinning them down! like some other dog trainers are showing people to do on the TV.
Maybe if they had more time-several weeks to educate the delinquent dogs  they wouldn't need to throw water its its face screaming NOOOO!! it wasn't that long ago that people [trainers] swore by using training disc's now its a plastic bottle with stones same tactic i feel looking at that type of training.

> a low grumble/growl, to a more forceful 'verbal mock attack' (very rare)&nbsp; as the pup is beginning to lose her 'puppy license' :-)&nbsp;&nbsp; As she gets better at listening, so the warnings are becoming more subtle.&nbsp; &nbsp; Nothing is 'followed through' and there is no violence.&nbsp; It is also instantly forgotten the second pup alters her behaviour.
>

Fascinating isn't it, watching them interact? I'm often amazed at the amount of negative reinforcement they give each other.. but then again they do speak the language.
My lot have all got hooves this evening with much swapping around, not a single grumble but lots of knowing looks :-) Then little 'un tried to take her Mums and this got a sharp snap (all noise no teeth) then back to being buddies again.
I agree that in some situations distraction would not be sure-fire enough.

> I think the reason that the trainers at dog borstal use such harsh methods is they only have about 3 days to turn the dog around to pass this test? so using shock tactic's is a quicker way of getting a dog that ignores you to listen.
> We all know once we have a dog thinking and taking notice your half way there in getting them to do what there told.
> At least they don't resort to lifting up by the collar and throttling the life out of it or pinning them down! like some other dog trainers are showing people to do on the TV.
> Maybe if they had more time-several weeks to educate the delinquent dogs  they wouldn't need to throw water its its face screaming NOOOO!! it wasn't that long ago that people [trainers] swore by using training disc's now its a plastic bottle with stones same tactic i feel looking at that type of training.

I wish this were actually the case, but they could turn these dogs around and onto the road to recovery using positive methods - the reason they use these techniques is that it makes for 'better' tv.. positive trainers were approached for the show but only those willing to use controversial techniques were picked.

Sadly also htey HAVE resorted to lifting a dog up by its collar (Bis the kelpie type dog) and pinning a dog down as well!

These methods and this particular program do cause more problems with dogs and they end up with other dog trainers or put down.

I realy do not believe there is any excuse for using such methods at all, and certainly 'making a tv show' is not one!

Hi theemx....

Gosh having read what you have said it must be for the tv ? having had a good sleep I remember that i used the leave command for my friend flighty boxer as he dragged over my friend [ who was pregnant at the time] it took about 10 minutes for him to suss out what I wanted.

Shame isn't it that all us dog owners love to see dog shows on tv and to be subjected to that trainers that bully and dictate. I have just taken on my other friends staffx Starkey since Thursday  and he with positive kind loving ways has been left alone in my house [had to go to work yesterday] and he has not wreck my house or gone toilet in my house once !!

To be honest I mostly enjoy the first half hour of this programme dog borstal watching the daft owners with there dogs.
I maybe a bit twisted in my humour but seeing the dogs being potty especially the bully's!! I find it highly entertaining !! I'm just evil that way:-)

The dog you mentioned the kelpie was a highly aggressive dog, did they end up sorting out his biting?  I can't remember.

Hi,

I can no longer watch dog borstal - I feel like when you've seen a few you've seen them all.  I can't bare seeing dogs having stuff thrown at them, shouted at them and yanked about in the name of entertainment.  These programs unfortunately set postive training back and do dog training a dis-service in my opinion.  Alot of the dogs on these programs have been very trainiable and they could have shown results as quickly by using positive methods.

I don't believe from experience there are any dogs (healthy) that can't learn by using positive methods.  I think there are very different time scales and limitations on what a dog can cope with depending on genetic make up and life experieinces.  I think managemnet and positive methods in situations where the need arises, like people or dog aggression, work far better, more effectively and safer than aversive methods of any kind.

Toolz,

Personally in situation like that I teach a strong leave, so that if I'm there I can ask them to leave it.  I think either way, with an 'ahh' or having taught a leave it using positive methods niether are going to work if you're not there, so you are better doing it the positive way and managing the situation when not there by either putting bin out the way or not allowing access to the room.  I had the same problem with my Dobe and my cats litter tray, and actually having not allowed her access when I'm not around and teaching her to leave when I am it has broken the habit and become ingrained that it is more rewarding not to stick her head in and munch :-) so I can now leave the door open and she doesn't bother with it.  However in the scheme of things the odd 'ahh' isn't going to do any harm if you have a strong relationship and confident dog.

> managing the situation when not there by either putting bin out the way or not allowing access to the room.

Or 'shape' the husband to put his yukky cotton buds somewhere else ;-)

re: Dog Borstal or any other dog training tv programme,
Positive reinforcment techniques take time and in the case of operant conditioning, may take a lot of time.... this could make for boring telly.
Whereas Negative methods are all 'crash bang wallop' and exciting tv....
If you were a Producer trying to get ratings what would you chose?
It's a bit like a game show where everything has to be done at breakneck speed..... TV people think that we have the concentration span of a gnat.... many do I suppose :-(

> Do old habits die hard or is there a place for this negative intervention?
>

I'm a carrot and stick wielder myself tooolz. And by stick I mean verbal reprimands like ack! or enough!. If the dog stops in its tracks they get the 'good dog' reward. So negative intervention that results in good behaviour gets the reward. I also think there is a place for teaching consequences for bad behaviour. For a puppy that doesn't come in from the garden when called it can watch part of its dinner go in the bin. If it comes back it gets part of its dinner plus a really good treat.

As for your bin situation I think I'd probably hide outside the door and peek through the crack. When she approaches the bin then as before aaahahhh to stop her followed by a reward for stopping. I did this with my girl after she took food off a plate on the coffee table. My being out of sight but still able to 'see' what she was doing seemed to instill the idea it was never safe to do that even if mom wasn't around. She hasn't touched anything since.

"I think the reason that the trainers at dog borstal use such harsh methods is they only have about 3 days to turn the dog around to pass this test? so using shock tactic's is a quicker way of getting a dog that ignores you to listen. "

I don't agree.  You can teach a dog just as quickly only with reward-based training techniques, IF you do not start with a dog that has already been programmed by the owner not to pay attention.  The dogs on Dog Borstal for the most part have been subjected to loving, over-indulgent owners who pretty much have got them so confused about what they should and should not do that the dogs just do what they want, when they want.  

For those dogs, you often need some way of getting the dogs attention first - "hey, LISTEN/LOOK or STOP".   Maybe it's a squirt bottle or a rattle can or a spray collar is used - but on every episode I've seen the desired behaviour is always rewarded with something positive like praise, a treat, a game.  

I wouldn't call the dogs trained after the 3-day stay either - most of them are better than they started and at least show that they understand the desired behaviour.  Trained?  Nope, not after only 3 days. 

I am really for "ah-ah" as subtle methods to curve unwanted behaviour- i only found this out from CM.

Even though I had been going to dog training for 8 years previously, it was never used!

I have noticed, that "ah-ah" in a calm yet forceful way is a heck of a lot more affective that shouting at the dogs. All of this time that the dogs are shouted at the behaviour just goes to the next level, its almost like it encourages them, like the person shouting is an adoring fan cheering.

I have 3 dogs and watch lots of different members of my family or close friends interact with them when they can be a bit OTT. I find it amusing as although the people think there in control shouting "STOP IT!" when the dogs are rough-housing around the room, and the dogs dont take a blind bit of notice. A subtle touch and ah-ah and the stop. Maybe another to prevent it carrying on and the dogs go off and find something else to do.

Dogs are dog and human are humans, they're not the same species so I don't see why similar methods (i.e shouting) would work with each. 

The thing I find really hard is not to say a dogs name when its in the wrong, like Saf ah-ah! It really annoys me each time i do it!

I do find Dog Bostal annoying, as I find with most dog trainers that they go round the problems instead of dealing with the issue. I.e agility is not going to solve aggression to other dogs. Yes it may reduce some energy when they're there- to make them more compliant but when they go home, surely they're back in the same situation with only a spray bottle, bad timing and a fearful/dominant aggressive dog to deal with!  

>Even though I had been going to dog training for 8 years previously, it was never used!

Have you never said that to your children? (Or if you don't have any children, was it never said to you as a child?)

Nope just got shouted at!

Tooolz I had to laugh - is your cotton bud eater a Cavalier by any chance ??

I came back from my holiday this year to find my Cavalier had rooted through my bedroom bin and chewed the ends off about 10 cotton buds !! I was worried at first but they must have came out of the other end...

I've since moved the bin to a non-accessible place - but I like Lori's idea of catching her in the act - I've used this before successfully with a clear "LEAVE IT" command and then lots of lavish praise and a treat when she does leave whatever she is trying to eat next (she's a little piggie!)

Yes it is !!!

To be fair they are all pretty gross :-)
I call them my little perverts. Ear wax....yukkkkkkkkkkkk

I won't tell you what else I have caught my Gypsy eating...she may look the picture of innocence but she does like to eat the most vile things !!

Going back to topic though - I believe in firm but fair - I do tell them off when they're naughty, but make a huge fuss and reward them with something tasty when they do something good and they have all turned out ok from using this method :-)

Or 'shape' the husband to put his yukky cotton buds somewhere else

Yes that's always an option :-D

re: Dog Borstal or any other dog training tv programme,
Positive reinforcment techniques take time and in the case of operant conditioning, may take a lot of time....

I personally don't agree that it neccesarily takes longer, especailly for basic training like a leave and recall, paying attention to owners etc, infact I think that it not only makes the results stronger but can often be quicker using positive methods.  I was at a training class on Sunday where there were three dogs that suppossedly couldn't pay attention around other dogs and had various problems around dogs, barking at, wanting to play with everydog they see, this was their first lesson (clicker training) and by the end of the hour session all of those dogs were paying attnetion to their owners and doing all that was asked of them.  The end result was happy attentive dogs and over-joyed owners.

Obviously there are things that will take longer when it comes to conditioning responses, maybe in the case of fear aggression for example.  But most of the dogs I have seen on DB could have been vastly improved by basic training and with the majority of them the problems were just basic training issues.

> By the second day she was wearing it as a necklace attached to her normal collar - so no check at all ;-)&nbsp; She has never needed it since!
>
> Sometimes you have to admit that the positive methods aren't working, but they do on most dogs if given a chance

I trained a BC ( 11 month old rescue, very hyper and unneutured, very very dominant),with a choke and the same as Dill, the third day it just hung around his neck. Never needed it again.

Not used one on any other dog since. Praise and reward method on two, clicker one other.

> I personally don't agree that it neccesarily takes longer

Shaping by it's very nature will take longer because you wait for the dog to volunteer or offer a behaviour rather than force one upon it.
In some of the cases in DB years of entrenched behaviour with it's associated bad owner/ dog relationships, would have taken quite some time to sort out - not least because of the alien environment the dogs are subjected to.

Like I tell all my students:-  the lessons are for the handlers.. the dogs know how to shape perfectly well but humans dont always instinctively learn this easily.
The 'people' on DB are not always the ideal candidates to teach this method to either ;-)

> by the end of the hour session all of those dogs were paying attnetion to their owners

Yes but if the handlers then took them out into another environment, with many new distractions, the shaping would have to be reinforced.
Barking, playful dogs may not offer such a challenge as dog-aggresive/ people aggresive, anxiety ridden ones might. 

Bilbobaggins wrote

>Not used one on any other dog since. Praise and reward method on two, clicker one other.

Same here, and the 'check'chain was used in conjunction with positive reinforcement for stopping her own behaviour ;)  she would go to lunge, check herself and then I'd praise and reward her.  Probably why it worked so fast.  It enabled her to offer me the desired behaviour, which she had never done before, and I could then reward her for the good behaviour :-D  totally different to the way most people think of a check chain being used ;)

Shaping by it's very nature will take longer because you wait for the dog to volunteer or offer a behaviour rather than force one upon it.

I can get both of my girls to do things far more quickly by shaping things than by luring and if I tried to force either of them I would get absolutely no where.  However there are other positive methods than just shaping.

In some of the cases in DB years of entrenched behaviour with it's associated bad owner/ dog relationships, would have taken quite some time to sort out - not least because of the alien environment the dogs are subjected to.

Plenty of the dogs on DB have been barely more than pups with basic training problems.

Like I tell all my students:-  the lessons are for the handlers..

The same as I tell mine :-)

the dogs know how to shape perfectly well but humans dont always instinctively learn this easily.
The 'people' on DB are not always the ideal candidates to teach this method to either

Part of being a good trainer is being able to teach people of all types as well as dogs of all types and I'm sure many of them would have enjoyed seeing positve results without the use of aversives.

Yes but if the handlers then took them out into another environment, with many new distractions, the shaping would have to be reinforced.

This class was an alien environment to these dogs, and behaviours need to be generalised no matter what methods are used.  I've seen one lady since with her 'unruly JRT' behaving like a different dog in a different and very distracting enrironment.

Barking, playful dogs may not offer such a challenge as dog-aggresive/ people aggresive, anxiety ridden ones might.

One of the barking dogs was fear aggressive to people and dogs, although she is just generally insecure and lacking focus.  However a lot of the dogs on DB weren't people or dog aggressive just untrained.  The ones that were aggressive weren't cured after a week of having rattle bottles shaken in their face oo water chucked at them and being yanked about, some of thier behaviours may have been supressed but they certainly didn't deal with the root of the cause and to me that not only makes it sad that this programme sets back positive training but also dangerous.

> totally different to the way most people think of a check chain being used ;-)

Very similar the choke chain mostly used in heel work. Everything  was  praise based. It was quiet intensive. The trainer came to me on a Monday for 6 weeks. Each Monday I was taught the lesson. Then 6 lessons of 10 mins each day plus his usual walks and the school runs ! I was exhausted and slim !!

At the end of 6 weeks I had the perfect dog.
That type of training was the only way forward. I had two small children and the BC had to learn quickly. My  youngest  was being intimidated  by him, he constantly tried to mount her etc, so I had no choice but to fix or pass him on. I was in the lucky position of being at home full time and it worked fantastically. But I know that type of training would not have worked on my sudsequent dogs nor me. They are  entirely different and so are my circumstances. Even the two I have now are trained differently.

I wish I knew about junior handling then,  my OH and I  used to be near bursting with pride  watching our little 4  and 5 year olds walking a BC and controlling him by hand signals  they would have breezed it; -)))

karenclynes

I fear that you have mistaken my post...

I clearly said "Whereas Negative methods are all 'crash bang wallop' and exciting tv....
If you were a Producer trying to get ratings what would you chose?"
I actually cringe when I watch DB and only expressed my view as to why they chose these methods to make a TV programme and not whether I agreed with it.

I most certainly didn't say " as a dog trainer which would you chose"

As for rest of what you wrote, (bearing in mind I was refering only to the constraints of a TV programme and not my work with dog trainers and clients for many years), I can only assume that I am not as good a trainer as yourself because I could not guarantee to be able to sort out all these dogs problems, (with their myriad of complex owner relationship issues) by clicker training them in 3 days, in front of cameras and a bunch of luvies shouting 'cut' all the time.
But alas not all dogs and owners go skipping out of classes "overjoyed".

As for rest of what you wrote, (bearing in mind I was refering only to the constraints of a TV programme and not my work with dog trainers and clients for many years), I can only assume that I am not as good a trainer as yourself because I could not guarantee to be able to sort out all these dogs problems, (with their myriad of complex owner relationship issues) by clicker training them in 3 days, in front of cameras and a bunch of luvies shouting 'cut' all the time.
But alas not all dogs and owners go skipping out of classes "overjoyed".

I was not commenting on your abilities as a dog trainer, but the people on DB with regards to what you wrote in reply to me.  I think for a lot of those dogs the problems could have been sorted out as quickly with positive methods and yes some of them, I'm sure have a 'myriad of comlex owner relationship issues' but I think that is far from the case with all of those problems, just mis guided owners that needed some guidance.  That's just my opinion and yours is different, fair enough, we can have different opinions, without the need to be sarcastic.

I never said anything about clicker training all manner of problems in three days, just that a lot of the problems could have been dealt with just as quickly by using positive methods!

I apologise if you feel I have mistaken your post or offended you.

I dont think anyones claiming you could guarantee to totally turn around any dog in 3 days with positive reward based training - but you absolutely could make huge steps in the right direction, more so than is actually done on DB (pay attention to the problems described often they are not real problems but 'sexed up' and in some cases footage shown before the training segment is taken AFTER teh training is done....)..

> to totally turn around any dog in 3 days with positive reward based training - but you absolutely could make huge steps in the right direction

My point and my only point was ...........

It wouldn't make great TV  would it?

It could.. but I think it would require a longer program, with fewer dogs on it..

You could still make a decent program out of showing owners what they are doing wrong and how changing their attitude and responses to things can change how the dog behaves.

After all, Super Nanny does well and ive yet to see her smack anyone or terrify them..compare what she does with positive dog training (though better the earlier series with younger kids as tehy are on a more easily comparable level with dogs, wrt to communication skills and ability to reason and empathy for others...)... it is the same technique!

You could compare and contrast Victoria Stilwell and DB theemx. ;-)