I wanted to set up a new thread specifically about fear aggression - mandy moo recently put a post up about her dog dylan and the problems she has been having with him i.e lunging, barking at other dogs while out on walks and similar behavoir when visitors come to the house. I have a 9 month westie robbie (male, neutered) who also has very similar issues to dylan. I have been doing a lot of reading on this subject and i wanted to see what methods have worked for other people. I have been using positive association, such as treats when we meet dogs. Keeping our distance if a dog we havn't come across before and treating if no barking. Getting my dog to 'look at me' to stop him focusing on another dog. loose lead walking etc.  There have improvements but sometimes you feel like you are 1 step forward 2 steps back, especially when we come across a new dog or situation!. My westie is still on a house line when visitors arrive cos he still jumps, wees etc even though i have been using consistent time out and positive association with him for 3 months now just on this one issue. He is still very vocal when we are out walking and the littlest thing can set him off. Would like to invite members to discuss what has or hasn't worked for them short or long term as there is a lot of contraversial advice out there i.e citronella sprays/water sprays which they seem to use a lot on the dog borstal TV program.

Hi maxine

the difficulties with throwing this type of discussion open are multi-fold IMO so I'll keep it brief :)

1. Seek the counsel of a reputable Trainer, preferrably one who is an accredited Behaviourist to establish if it is ACTUAL fear agression that is the problem.  Sometimes those closest to a dog are least likely to notice subtle signs and body language and may have entirely misread why a dog is behaving in a certain way

2. In the meantime use no form of negative punishment or anything which could be perceived as such by the affected dog, i.e. neither physical acts such as shouting, scruffing, pinning, alpha rolling nor any aversive methods such as pebbles in a bottle, water sprays, anti-bark collars, shock collars

3. Any situation which is known to provoke an obvious fearful or agressive response should be avoided - pressure put on any dog suffering thus will only make matters worse;  leave methods of how best to overcome undesirable behaviours until assessed by previously mentioned professional who can observe the dog closely and work out a method of training specific to the individual dog, it's ACTUAL specific reasons for given responses and it's day to day environment etc.

regards, Teri :)

thanks for yopur input teri - i totally agree with you on the negative punishment thing - just for the record, i would never dream of using shouting, pinning, rolling, pebbles in a bottle, anti bark or shock collars etc. the reason for the post is because i noticed that there have been a  number of people asking about this issue and thought it would be useful to swop experiences. Of course i agree that every dog has unique problems and that consulting a behaviourist is a must, which is something i have already done and my dog has been diagnosed with fear aggression. My point was that there are alot of trainers/behaviourists advising different techniques and a lot of people that have had different experiences and i thought it would be useful to swop theses experiences

Hi maxine788/clareb788 ( you appear to have changed ID ... )

> My point was that there are alot of trainers/behaviourists advising different techniques

It's precisely because there are a lot of different types of trainers advising some very inappropriate techniques that I linked to the APDT and APBC  :)

interesting discussion for which there are many answers.  My boy is fear aggressive, he was attacked from behind whilst on the lead at about 8 months old by two large collies and I was told by the owner 'thats collies for you'.  Initially we didnt appear to have a problem until he had a go at a dog who had come into his space.  .

We used positive association i.e. treating when other dogs are nearby letting him have a loose lead. 

The best thing we did for him was start agility - initially we started 1-2-1 lessons and he loved it.  That was 3 years ago and his aggression is massively better and nearly non existent.  He can now go to a show, queue and run a course without a single growl, bark or nasty face.  Agility has got him working and was the best thing I ever did for him.  He can still be a mithering old bugger when he wants if a young whippersnapper comes into his face but he will now warn off before launching at them. 

I think as with everything in life what works for one, wont necesarily work for another but agility gave him focus and allowed him to associate other dogs with a good thing. 

To answer your question on methods other people have used - I've done basically what you described. :-)

What I have NOT done is used any form of aversive, except in extreme circumstances - and in almost two years I can think of one instance; Soli went ballistic at another dog and I was losing my grip, had I lost it she would have gone straight at it so I scruffed her to startle her out of it.  It worked, but I would never, never advocate it - the risk of association with the other dog is too high.

As it is, using the positive steps you describe has taken Soli from a foaming, leaping, braying lunatic at 50ft to a dog that will (for the most part, she's regressed slightly lately) meet and greet the vast majority of strange dogs very nicely.  It's taken a long time but I know that I've helped her get over the root cause rather than just treating the symptoms.

I am now considering digging out my remote spray collar (bought it to stop Remy running off with dead rabbits as he has no recall in that situation, and can aggress at other dogs if they come near when he has one) - but not for her fear issue.  It's for her bullying issue with River - she is obsessive over Riv and likes to mouth her back/scruff, which now appears to have translated to "oh, I can nip strange dogs to frighten them off" now she's gotten a lot more confident than she used to be.  But it will never, ever be used when there is a strange dog about - only to stop her mouthing River (assuming it does actually stop her) and will be used in conjunction with clicker/treats.

For my girl we use clicker training, and has worked great for us. Every time she looks at a dog in a calm manor, i.e walking past, approaching, and in dogs company i click then give a high reward treat.
If she does decide to lunge or bark, i just calmly turn around in opposite direction for a few paces, then turn back towards the dog clicking calm behaviour and so on.... I walk her in a park most days, she is loads better, even goes off lead with certain "doggy" friends.
But is not 100%, and still dislikes too full on in your face dogs, but we are really pleased with her and has come along way :)

Our rescued Ridgeback is fear aggressive with other dogs when she is on her lead.  Off the lead she is fine, think its because she can 'flight' instead of having to 'fight'!

We took her to a dog training class we took our other dogs to.  Our trainer spoke to the rest of the group before hand and told them that we would be sat in the corner just watching the session and that Lola might lunge and bark but to keep their distance and ignore her.  Any owners that weren't happy with this were fitted into another class, but all but one stayed.  The trainer told us not to muzzle her and just sit and watch the class.  The first week I was a bag of nerves by the time the class had finished!  She lunged and barked constantly, however, the trainer told us to persevere.  The next week wasn't quite as bad.  She started to get the message that other dogs weren't a threat and everytime she let a dog walk by without lunging or barking she got a treat.  As the weeks went by Lola got better and better and although she still has her moments she is a different dog.  Distraction works well now, although she does still keep one eye on the dog as it walks by!

just wanted to say what a brilliant thread this is.....i'm still waiting for my first meeting with a dog behaviourist with Dylan.we're meeting her on the 6th oct for the first time

we've actually managed to walk on the opposite side of the road from another dog, and as long as i'm giving Dylan treats as soon as he spots the other dog, he seems fine

my other yorkie had pups 4 weeks ago, and i must admit i was wary of letting Dylan anywhere near them, but for some reason he's been absolutely fantastic with them! the only time he's growled at them is when they've gone underneath him to try and feed off him!!

i know its gonna be a long hard slog, but he's worth it!

Hi everybody, I am new to this so please bear with me.  I have an 8 month, entire, male Vizsla called Rufus, who is happy go lucky with not an bit of aggression in him, he loves everybody and fears nobody.  As he seems to love the company of other dogs we have decided to get him a pal to have fun with.  We have found someone with a 13 month old castrated Vizsla male with nervious aggression issues  towards people he does not know, he snaps and growls when approached by strangers, does not like to be disturbed when in his basket or eating, but is fine with other dogs and his existing owners. They have a baby on the way and his owner does not feel he could trust the dog around a child, hence the rehoming.  He seems to have been like this right from the start, and has come from a disreputable breeder as far as I can tell.  As a puppy he and his sibs were taken away from the mother for long periods of time as the bitch was losing a lot of weight,  They were kept in a pen and were constantly being charged by a large rottweiller.  He lives in a house with two other dogs.  One who is 13 years and and the other an 8 month old puppy.  The couple who have him both work so he has been left alone all day from a puppy.  This aggression is very unusual for a Vizsla as they are usually the happiest of dogs.  The owner has enlisted the help of a professional and the dog spent a week with the trainer in his own home.  I wonder if anybody has any advice or experience of Vizsla behaviour issues. We have not committed to bringing him home yet, but would dearly like to have him as a pal for Rufus.

hi eve,

sorry i do not know enough about this breed to advise specifically - but i would say that if you do decide to take this dog on then it will take alot of committment and patience to get him back on the right track - there are no quick fixes for fear aggression. you need to think about Rufus as well in this - the last thing you want is the new dog attacking him! - If you are serious though then i would contact a behavoirst of your own - the cost will be worth it it the long run - to assess the dog you are wanting to take on and get there opinion on whether this dog would be the right addition for your family and how much work you will be letting yourself in for. Just make sure you do your homework. This young dog is not going to loose his fear aggression in 1 week!!! i would be concerned what type of trainer/behavoirst this couple have recruited? The next home this boy gets needs to be the right one, with people who will be at home with him and build up that important trust and stability (something that he has obviously been lacking).  As i have said dealing with fear agression is something that needs you to put in a lot of time and patience. You already have a young pup who an needs alot of your time already. I know i found the first 9 months of having a second dog with fear aggression all consuming. Its taken over my life!!. Many times i was ready to throw in the towel (but of course i couldn't). Luckily i was never in a situation where my fear aggressive dog hurt my other dog - my fear aggresive dog sounds like this one you are looking to adopt i.e growling when disturbed in bed, when eating and barking. lunging at strangers etc. I am now in a position where all the work is paying off and my fear aggressive pup who is now 9 months old is settling in really well. I think my advantage over your situation though is that the male dog that i already had was 3 years old and extremely placid, i waited until he was older to get him a companion. So even when the younger dog growled at him or jumped all over him he was really gentle with him. Hope this helps...

With an 8 month old puppy I would advise not to add a second dog until your puppy is mature and behaving exactly as you would like (99% of the time).    Remember that dogs do model after each other, so if you are adding a dog who is fear aggressive that dog may well teach your puppy to act in a similar manner.   Or teach it to fear things it would not otherwise.

Having owned a fear-aggressive dog - my advice is no matter how much that dog pulls at your heart - don't.   Even with the best of training you may well end up spending the rest of the dog's life adjusting your life so there's no possible threat to other people or other dogs.   It is not an easy burden, no matter how wonderful the dog is in your own home and with your own family.

Contact Sylvia Cox from HV breed rescue - details here:  http://www.champdogs.co.uk/club/447.html
She has a wealth of experience and knowledge of breed lines and behaviour.

Eve - I have to agree with cairnmania.  An 8 month old puppy is already hard work (ah, the joy of the teenage months) - adding a fear aggressive dog would make it much more than double the work, believe me!

When I brought my Soli home she was 5 years old and a hell of a dog to work with, and made my life a LOT harder (and at the time I wasn't working much so had a lot of time to give her) - and my other two were mature adults at the time.  If I'd had a pup the age of yours I would have had to force myself to walk away - it would have been too hard.

Heck, if she was looking for a home now, even knowing how to handle her issues and help her progress, I would walk away - I now work full time and simply wouldn't have the time to work with her.  As it is I'm struggling - she has regressed, as I mentioned on my earlier reply, and I'm finding it extremely difficult to work with her around my new job (and with littlun being in season as well, though luckily she only has a couple weeks left).

My 12 week old pup started barking at other dogs from the minute we got her out of Battersea Dogs Home. 

On walks I used to get her to lay down and watch me until the other dog had passed, which was fairly effective but she could still bark at them.

This got worse as she got older, not really sure what triggered it as she was well socialised with people and dogs.  By the time she was 2 she was a complete nightmare on walks, even in a headcollar, she had a total persecution complex with strange dogs. I was taking her to weekly agility and obedience classes where she worked a treat and ignored the dogs there, she knew them so she wasnt worried.  I got some extra help from Battersea in the end.

Basically I got her obsessed about a small sqeaky ball and only let her have it when I wanted to play and I kept it in a draw at all other times (she was nuts about it, still is!) Then we spent several weeks walking around their field with stooge dogs, coming at us from all angles. I had my squeaky ball so she was focused and after a few weeks of this she decided that was far more interesting to play with the ball than barking at other dogs. 

I did use a water spray collar in the car to stop the barking/trying to break the window to get the other dogs, this was very effective and I only did it a few times before she got the idea - all was done with behaviourists advice.

hi, just wanted to update on Dylan's situation. i've had a visit from a brilliant (well i think she is!) behaviourist just yesterday,  and she has given me so much advice and exercises to carry out with all 3 of my dogs ( i have a female border collie cross 4years old, female yorkie 2 years old, and male yorkie(Dylan) 13months old)

Apparently Dylan has taken on the role of "top dog" which is a lot for a little dog to take on! She has given me loads of tips and advice on re-establishing myself as "top dog" as she says that will take the pressure off Dylan and make him a much happier dog in the long run

Anyway, i've started as i mean to go on, and i can't believe it!! I can already see a slight change in Dylan for the better, and this has given me so much confidence to know that he CAN be helped

its gonna be a long hard slog, i know that, but i KNOW i can help him now

The behaviourist is coming back to see how we're getting on in a couple of weeks, so i'm hoping things will be heaps better by then....i'll let you know what happens

What advice has she given you to establish yourself as top dog?