I hope I am not showing my ignorance here, but I have only just seemed to notice how fat some dogs at shows and ringcraft are, even once being placed/winning. I don't know much about dog showing yet, but have shown horses, and the tendancy is to have them too fat to hide faults a bit, although animal welfare groups are now calling for something to be done about this and it is changing slightly.

So, is it the same with dogs? Will being too fat/thin be a factor in placings? I guess it depends somewhat on the judge.

There were a couple of practically obese dogs at ringcraft yesterday, with at least an inch and a half of fat over their ribs, maybe more than that. Is it common?

I hadn't thought of it being to hide faults - I must be slipping!

I have a Labrador who is beautifully made (I would think so!) but on the slim side due to his pedigree being half working stock. It makes him a very fast, agile dog who loves agility, but it means we are always passed over in the show ring. It is very annoying seeing what to me are sometimes brutish and overweight dogs being chosen instead of my Buddy, but that's the way it is in the Lab world. They call it "chunky".

Good luck showing - and have fun with it.

Julie

It's not common at all to have fat dogs in the ring thankfully :)  Youngsters at the teenage/junior stage may be a little thin and difficult to body up due to growth spurt and needing time to mature - IMO other than with youngsters, the nutrional value of their diet should be looked at to establish why it is not meeting their needs.

Dogs who do well in the show ring need to be in good muscular condition whether they be a toy breed or a giant one and anything in between.  Some breeds (sorry Lab fans) have a tendency to over eat and if not suitably rationed with their diets and given enough exercise will easily gain weight. 

Dogs carrying well toned muscle and in dry sinewy condition are far more common that those that don't but as with any owners some simply do not put in the same level of high quality nutrition and amount of exercise specific to each individual breed's needs.

regards, Teri :)

So, is it the same with dogs? Will being too fat/thin be a factor in placings? I guess it depends somewhat on the judge.

But even more so on the breed. Some breed absolutely cannot get away with being overweight. For Labradors it seems to almost be the norm.

Like Julie said, I have heard that the judges prefer them with a little more weight on. But it does depend on the breed.

That's interesting lilys serenity :)

Could you expand on what breeds, other than possibly Labradors, then?  Any that you own, breed or - since you feel it's judges' preference - any that you judge yourself?

I agree that it depends on breed - IMO show goldens and labs tend to be kept rather over ;-) esp the labs - sorry! Flat coats, you won't get anywhere with a dog that's overweight - they like them in hard condition, lean and muscles but really with very little fat to spare - or so I found when I was showing Duibh - which suited me fine as that was how I liked to keep him. :-)

> IMO show goldens and labs tend to be kept rather over ;-)

Wot! you calling my girl fat miss! :) She'll come get you now. ;-) Her breeder would slap me if I let her get fat much less show her that way. They are a heavy built breed with a lot of substance and bone but I aim for hard condition with lots of lean muscle that can be seen - even with a coat on.

Thanks. I have Goldens and had noticed they were one of the 'culprits'.

I am not prepared to allow my girls to become over-weight and their health to be potentially affected in order to win or do well. I'm hoping that will not affect my chances and I will not have to give up before I really start. Then again, I have also noticed some handlers 'stringing up' their Goldens and yanking them around the ring, which I also refuse to do. The judge at ringcraft made some very nice comments about her yesterday, so again, hopefully it won't affect our chances.

Thanks Lori, that's encouraging! I did notice some fat Goldens at the show last weekend getting placed highly. They had proper rolls of fat. :-(

All the book is have say they shouldn't have rolls of fat though. I apprecuate the nee dot be well muscled, and surely that goes without saying in a working breed, but there are no muscles over the ribs! :-)

> Wot! you calling my girl fat miss!

Haven't had my hands on your girl. :-) Knowing you I would guess you've got your Princess perfect in every particular. ;-) But I have had my hands on show goldens that seemed to be lacking ribs - though I expect they were in there somewhere under the fat. It wasn't meant to suggest that everyone who shows them has them over - but there does seem to be a tendency IME as I have been assured by different people that it was the 'norm'.

ETA She's welcome to come and get me - but I may not send her back. ;-)

> Knowing you I would guess you've got your Princess perfect in every particular.

Oh you definitely haven't had your hands on her! LOL

It is true that dogs and people both are getting fatter in general. (Milo and his mum are perfect examples but we're working on it ;-))

The first time i went to Crufts i was shocked to see some of the labs, some looked like they were struggling :( .

when i had my border collie i was told on more than one occasion by judges that he needed to put more weight on, when i had him weighed at the vets as the first time i was told i was very worried, the vet said perfect weight, perfect health, so the next time a judge said that to me, i said sorry but i work him so he is all muscle and left it at that, we went on to do agility, flyball ,herding and started to dabble in working trials before he passed away ,
we where on about this at ringcraft last week, someone had been told that her rottie was rather on the lean side, i thought he looked magnificant when he came into class, and she said that it worried her when it was mentioned, but a gentleman from germany  who has rotties said to her that he was correct and he should not look like a barrel on legs, which made us laugh as we had heard that expression before , he said not to worry what other people thought it was the judge that made the decision in the ring and if he could not tell fat between fit he is not worth the money to be judged by him again, she said she was worried if people thought her dog was being starved, and i still think she was not convinced even though people where telling her he was fine, she also works him in working trials and he can get over the scale no problem and even when running around the ring some one at club said to her your dog does not stand there panting with tounge hanging out to his knees after twice around the ring please does he ?

i have to watch my weight on my crested as she is spayed and quite lazy so she can easily put the pounds on,
my spitz because of his coat you think he is chunky until you put your hands on him
my rottie will eat and eat and eat, but he also burns loads off as we are so active, flyball,agility, running along side the bike about 2 miles a day at the moment until he gets older and then he will run with the collies
and my collies well they never have the time to get fat, always busy never a spare min,
carolann

my spitz because of his coat you think he is chunky until you put your hands on him

LOL went to a companion show with my Spitz Koda (he s castrated so he has a rather large coat LOL) Judge has border terriers (I think they span ribcage? with their hands) She asked how on earth you feel their ribs and then placed her hands she was shocked (in a nice way!) how fit he was and he got 1st PG out of 10! Lesson learned here was never judge ringside!!
Angela

i have been told i would not do well with my bulldog until she puts on more  weight, but according to my vets she is a ideal weight. so i would  rather have a health dog then one that does well in the ring.

People tell me off for the slightest extra ounce on my dogs, but they are both stocky with good spring of ribs so the slightest hint of extra weight really does make them look fat, lol! :-)

This is an interesting thread. In my breed, you should only see fit, lean dogs in very hard condition. Now my boy is at the top end of the standard and therefore I have to be very careful about weight as too little and he can look leggy and rangey, too much and he looks course. During spring and early summer he was consistantly placed at champshows but I had the odd person tell me he could do with losing a few pounds. I became almost obsessed with his weight and reduced the amount of food whilst maintaining his exercise reigime. However, since he has lost those few pounds is it just coincidense that he has only been placed once in his last 5 champ shows. IMO he looks fantastic, with great muscle definition and you can just see his ribs without them really protruding, however, it does seem to me that the judges preferred him with a little extra weight!

> IMO he looks fantastic, with great muscle definition and you can just see his ribs without them really protruding, however, it does seem to me that the judges preferred him with a little extra weight!

In most breeds (coat types aside) seeing all the ribs would IMO be a serious cause for concern.   Dogs can be lean, sinewy, well muscled and conditioned while still having a covering over the ribs - ideally the last ribs should be easily felt on exam but this need not come close to them being described as protruding or almost so.

In my own breed and those of similar size and proportions I would be alarmed if all ribs were easily felt never mind visible unless in a gangly youngster going through a sudden growth spurt (which ideally should be given time to mature and fill and not be in the ring :) )

regards, Teri

sorry, I didn't explain myself well terri, I should have written you can feel some of  his ribs , rather than see, the only ones really visible are the last few, and only up close,   he is no xylophone, trust me, but it would appear ( and one of the persons who commented on his weight is judging crufts in this breed) thought that coverage of ribs equalled overweight. Bad choice of words on my part!!! However, I am letting him go back to the condition I had him in the spring, will just have to learn to ignore the overweight comments!

> will just have to learn to ignore the overweight comments!

perhaps it was the competition trying to nobble him ;)

Hmm in my breed alot are shown too thin and so compared to them mine look on the podgy side.

But I'd rather have mine with a bit of covering than 'anorexic' or toast rack like.....
But I don't like obese either....

Must admit I've seen many a Lab that I would call FAT in the showring but I've seen working ones too that to me look extremely skinny.  I like a fit dog where you can feel the ribcage but I hate seeing a dog where you can play a tune on their ribcage and ones that you can't even find their ribcage.  I like a happy medium in most things in life :)

My youngest Spanish who is 5 months old looks really chunky but she actually needs a bit of fat on her although I'm not worrying about it too much yet as she's only a baby.

Unfortunately i completely agree that its the overweight labs that couldnt do a days work in their lives who go on to win 1st place..

the judges like them to be thick boned which is fair enough... but when they go on to be so unfit that they cant run around the ring properly... then theres a problem.. unfortunately when im watching the labs at crufts and champ shows... most look overweight.

While I completely agree that a dog should not be over or under weight at any time (not just in the ring), I would suggest you be aware yourself of how your dogs weight is. Some unscrupulous exhibitors will try and put off likely competition by commenting on various attributes of a dog that they feel is better than theirs. If you starve your dog or even feed it up then obviously it will be less competition against theirs.
I always tell novices that if another exhibitor in the ring makes derogatory comments about your dog, the chances are that they are worried about your dog beating them. I suggest that they smile sweetly and thank them for their comments, then instantly forget them!

I know what you mean in some breeds they seem to have a little too much padding.
In my breed we can have the opposite problem as they are a weighed breed so sometimes dogs can get thrown out for looking to thin.  But on the other side I have never personally seen a fat dog being placed over a correct weight one.  I guess it is like everything weight being just another fault in a judges eyes.

Emma

Hi Terri, I was talking Goldens- its just what i've been told.

Personally the wobbly middrift doesn't do it for me!

Plus:
Don't know too much about other breeds so can't comment.

A show goldie however should be fit to do a days work in theory, but if that was true there wouldn't be two different types of Goldie!

My younger girl from show lines didn't do too well because she was too dark, too skinny and had a relative unknown handling her. Yet she's fit as a fiddle for a days work- so I don't think the showing side really concentrates too much on that side of things in Goldies. Whether it be right or wrong- its not in the breed standard. The breed standard equates to a working dog but can be interpreted in a hundred different ways.

I know what you mean but it's not all dispair in showing goldens. I have a girl that's golden, thin and handled by me - a real novice. She placed in our last two champ shows and those were only the 3rd and 4th champ shows either of us have been to. She's a great worker too - she'd love nothing more than to spend a day in the field on a hunt. Lives to please, tough as old boots and has the stamina to work all day. There is a definite bias towards creams though - which I find surprising. I'm as biased towards golds as most are towards the creams. ;-)

I've been told it depends on the judge Lori - friends with creams know which judges prefer goldens and don't enter under them - think it's a question of getting to know your judges too. :-)

True, but 6 out of 6 judges at champ shows I've attended (spectator/or dog judging) so far have been very biased towards cream. That's pretty bad odds for the golden ones. You'll have to ask your friends who they think the gold lovers are and send me a list!

Every show I've been to in the last 2 years seem very cream orientated, think they should change the breed name (goes in hiding for a week :) )

Every show I've been to in the last 2 years seem very cream orientated, think they should change the breed name (goes in hiding for a week  )

I agree with you, although I usually prefer darker myself, although not too dark.

I know everyone has a prefeence, and judging is subjective, but surely colour should be irrelevant really, provided the dog is within the breed standards? Unless, of course, allt he Golds are of horrid conformation or movement! :-)

I suppose if you had 2 identical specimens but coat was different it would boil down to preference though - having said that I would have thought there would be some other small feature that could separate them - but then in other breeds colour can play a part, and 'flashier' specimens be favoured. In goldens there seem to be those 2 coat types as well, one flat and straight and the other more curly\wavy too don't there? But yes - since colour is correct under the standard whether cream or golden it ought not to be a major deciding factor. :-)

I lied - the judge I had at one show seemed to act completely without bias.

> I suppose if you had 2 identical specimens but coat was different it would boil down to preference though - having said that I would have thought there would be some other small feature that could separate them

If there was a mix of colors with slight imbalance in numbers being placed I'd agree. When you watch the judging and every single class has only cream dogs placing you start getting the message.

We digress though - this post is supposed to be about fat dogs! So no fat dogs either cream or golden :)

he he, its true what's been said but I have found a mixture of dogs winning the classes and for me the winner boils down to who has the the best outline and the best outline @ the moment does seem to me, to be on some of the creamy dogs! Don't know why!
But that I think has been the switch in more recent times (or maybe I just was not aware of it before) instead of a stunning dog with a glamorous coat, the winner is now the one with the best outline and an okay coat. Like the brown eye colour (in humans), I have found the cream to be the dominant colouring in litters from the two different coat coloured parents.

yes..back to fat dogs!

Sorry, off topic again...

Does anyone know how the colour genetics of Goldens work? Are they all the same base colour with some other gene affecting the shade?

In my litter, with Mum what I would call a dark cream and dad a mid gold, I had mainly dark cream pups, with one light cream and only one darker than Mum. She is the one here and although she is getting darker, she'll only be light gold, I think.

I have seen litters of working pups with two dark parents where the litter is mainly dark, so wonder if the gene/genes for darker gold are recessive.

Anyone have any idea?

Maybe I should start another thread?

Start a new thread. I'd be interested as well.

I believe I was once told by a friend (who breeds Golden Retrievers) that the cream does tend to be more dominant. Not my breed though, so I'm afraid I don't know anymore than that!

I had a litter with a dark mum and light dad= two mid gold and the rest light like dad.

In her mums litter who was light (but from dark parents) and the sire was dark; only one was dark and one was mid whereas the rest were light.

I think generally, dark and dark equals dark and so on but on crossing the colours in my experience cream prevails.