> When is this program to be made and aired? Didn't the last one take 2 yrs or something to make?

That's not stated only that it is in the planning stages so it could be that a fair amount has been done even before the original was aired (based on going back to interview some breeders, specific breed clubs, RSPCA etc, but could just as easily be another couple of years I guess :)

With the way the first one went I wouldn't expect the producers to see much need in doing genuinely intimate research - only that which will make sensational TV ....

> but anyway, why 'give up' this time round?

There was a lengthy thread at the time when posters correctly identified from her previous output what tone her work would take. Those that decided they would entertain her seemed to have discovered this the hard way.

Those that entertained her left a lot to be desired, from what I saw. Lies and refusing to test for conditions....speaks for its self. I feel sorry for the epileptic dog owners though, they certainly were caught out.

With the way the first one went I wouldn't expect the producers to see much need in doing genuinely intimate research - only that which will make sensational TV

From the first one, I'd agree. I thought the 2 yr thing because thats when she posted for help making the program on here.

> Those that entertained her left a lot to be desired, from what I saw

EXACTLY.  From what any of us saw - but according to the dog papers over the weeks since aired, many of those who did give valuable and in depth input were either missed out entirely or some of what was said taken entirely out of context.

Do you get the popular weekly dog press?  Many folks have put their names to what happened whether cut out entirely or sensationally edited.  Including several folks who certainly came across very badly indeed (hmmm, like the KC )

Hands up, sorry, I was not referring to the winner this year, rather the winner shown on the programme, ie the Peke. I thought that both the Schnauzer and Sammy were beautiful, and the picture of health. I was delighted at the placings. Interestingly enough, they are both breeds that have not been tampered with very much in recent years.

Surely Moonmaiden, some of theire proposals would have affected the GSD because if it had been judged to KC standards, it would not have been placed and would therefore encourage breeders to abandon the awful body shape. In his article 100 years of the German Shepherd dog Fred Lanting wrote : so much emphasis was placed on powerful drives in the rear, that the outline of the West German dogs (and therefore in much of the world buying them) had too many "boomerang" or "banana backs". This resulted not only from "the push for push", but also from the attempt to get the appearance of a long croup. Thankfully, this trend has been stopped and is in process of reverting to the more normal topline without sacrificing strength, power, and the long croup needed for both. Unfortunately, this trend has not been stopped and seems to have re-appeared.
I agree with you about should be hip & elbow scored, and haemophilia tested. That surely would be where the vet passport came in. Only dogs with good and clear test results could compete - the whole premise of health testing being compulsory in order to enter any KC shows.

I know that you favour the type which I and many others don't, and that you place huge emphasis on working ability, but we are talking about showing and conformation. Working ability in all sporting breeds falls into a different arena, and dogs compete in different events set for the purpose. What you are suggesting for the GSD would mean that working,gundog, hound, utility, pastoral and working breeds ( in fact most of the groups)would need to demonstrate working ability for entry to Crufts, and very few I expect are worked for the purpose intended now. That isn't what the KC is about, and to be honest most of the dogs bred will have either show or pet homes. Breeding for these qualities would mostly be quite unsuitable for these types of homes.

I think you are right, that eventually there will be a split between the German type which do not meet the KC standard and the rest which do. If any overseas or German type breeders want to compete at Crufts they would need to breed a different type of dog and vice versa. If that split meant that the SV hold their own shows then so be it. I think that would be the most sensible route.

would anyone be willing to go on the programme again though after everyone saw what happened this time around?,
or will everyone close ranks so it looks like we have something to hide?
it will be a difficult position for a lot of people to be in, the kc have to come out and defend themselves, but will joe public really care anyway,
will the next programme be aimed at the breeders not doing anything , or joe public as they seemed to put it being duped into buying dogs with defects.
will they go and find other breeds that have problems or will they look at the same breeds that they already highlighted in the programme,
carolann

> If that split meant that the SV hold their own shows then so be it. I think that would be the most sensible route.

You have lost me here the SV are not governed by the KC & already hold shows, breed surveys(the KC doesn't) & Schutzhund competitions. The UK Schutzhund association is not governed by the KC & neither are the clubs involved

I have no interest in any GSD that could not do the job is was bred to do & this would include all the UK type, for many reasons the many ones being construction(too long & low),health(hardly any hip scored etc)& the worst thing for me is temperament & character, my"banana"backs have protected me or more than one occasion, the only"Alsatian"my Dad owned had such bad fear aggression she eventually was PTS & she was bred in the purple from top "Alsatian"lines. My "banana"backs have detained muggers, housebreakers, seen off would be attackers & car thieves as well as all being loving companions-not trembling physical wrecks that only see the outside world on show days(A certain dog that was subsequently BIS @ Crufts, got free from it's bench & ran into the BIS ring trying to escape, it then started slowly circling the ring & when approached frozen into the breed stance & then crawled away, when it was captured is was a quivering heap-but still got BOB & the CC-And Yes this was a GSD sorry"Alsatian"! & yes I did see it-whilst showing another breed)

All the working breeding(including Pastoral, Working, Gundogs, Terriers & Hounds)should have to prove they can work BEFORE they are shown &/or bred from. Not necessarily involving the killing of other animals, but that they could do the job)This would force the "Alsatianists"to have to improve construction & temeprament. Of course I would want compulsory health testing as well(for all breeds) & a max hip/elbow score that would allow the dog to be bred from.

Will it happen  not in the near future, because the KC are frightened of losing revenue from the pet & BYB breeders & also because of the pressure that would be applied by the various breed factions.

if you have no interest in the working ability of the GSD then you have an interest only in the visual side of the breed, the GSD's working ability is part & parcel of it's make up & cannot be disregarded just because the outer appearance is all you are interested in

My friend has working bred GSDs & dogs she has bred all live as pets indoors with their owners. You have totally the wrong idea about German GSDs they HAVE to have 110% temperaments because they are tested(before being bred from)for this most important trait. If they were bred simply for the work drive then they could not pass the breed survey nor the BH testt. the conformation of the "Alsatian"leaves much to be desired, apart from the size of the males, it is hard to distingush between males & females, they do not have the strong heads, with a good width of muzzle & the calm self assured expression. They are overangulated at the rear to produce the "straight"sloping backs, they lack the correct length of ribcage to support their over long length & tend to be very long coupled-this is what causes the "bouncing"back in movement.

Sorry, but the "Alsatian"could never work sheep or cattle because of their construction let alone their character & health

Schutzhund BTW isn't about biting & attacking, it is about having total control of the dog in all circumstances. my friend in Germany is also now heaviliy involved in S&R dogs-aggression has no part in S&R, yet the same dogs successfully compete in Schutzhund trials

Isn't one part of the KC dedicated to "Fit for Purpose"-ergo the dog being suitable for the work it was bred for QED

> would anyone be willing to go on the programme again though after everyone saw what happened this time around?,

The only way I would be prepared to appear on such a program would be if I was guaranteed to see all the footage shot before the editing & also to have an unedited copy of the same, then if I was edited to appear to be saying something I wasn't I would have the proof-would it happen I very much doubt it

It would be easy enough to just record your own version at the time of interview, I'm sure that no one could legitimately disagree with that.

If one was adhering to best possible practise, with healthy, sound dogs, well exercised etc, etc I can't really see how you could get stitched up unless of course, the production company are out and out crooks which so far, they haven't been proven guilty of.

The problem with that is that it will not be identical to the footage shot by  the company & they would be able to manipulate it to their own ends. They have shown themsleves to be dishonest by linking Eugenetics, the Nazis & dog breeders in a very sensational way, it was made quite clear that they were tarring dog breeders with Nazi beliefs-I'm the wrong faith to be a Nazi !

All my dogs have always had all the available health tests done on them & also been "fit for purpose"if they have been bred from. Obviously my Cavaliers are not"Fit for purpose"as they both have SM.

Having been stitched up by a radio station in the past, I now will only go on the radio if it live radio.

They have shown themsleves to be dishonest by linking Eugenetics, the Nazis & dog breeders in a very sensational way, it was made quite clear that they were tarring dog breeders with Nazi beliefs-I'm the wrong faith to be a Nazi !

I have to agree that the eugenetics link was plain stupid. 

It is however incredibly easy to prove that audio/video tape has been editted in any way, that and a solicitors letter should certainly remind them of their responsibility for fair and unbiased reportage.

> It is however incredibly easy to prove that audio/video tape has been editted in any way, that and a solicitors letter should certainly remind them of their responsibility for fair and unbiased reportage.

The damage will have already been done by then & no amount of legal action & compensation will replace a damaged reputation

MM
What I meant was as you said in your earlier post that breeders preferring the German Shape would split off and 'go it alone'. In some ways I think it quite sad that people hold on to what they see as right with blinkers firmly on, and cannot see any other viewpoint, as I believe that the 'non-german' shape could be introduced SLIGHTLY into the english shape (I will not adopt your alsatian and alsatianist terms, as they are silly and just put in to be derogatory) and perhaps then we could improve the breed generally. This breed when developed did NOT have the exaggerated german body shape, and performed it's job perfectly well, as do the many non-german types employed in a working role in the UK right now. Do you consider Fred Lanting to be totally uninformed in respect of the GSD? Did he not have a point - even just a little bit?
It's the Michael Jackson effect, have a little surgery to improve, yes then just a little bit more, til he looked really good. Should have stopped there, but no a bit more and a bit more - the result - disaster. The founding Shepherd dog Hector Linksrhein seems certainly does not have much in common todays German type.

I do know what Schutzhund is, I have a friend with an english type, long coated (shock horror) hip scored, good temperament, and bold dog who does it. As are mine who don't do it, because I do other things with them. I don't know where you got the idea that I thought that aggression was needed for it. That I think was a 'mind-read' on your part.  You do make the weirdest statements to support your argument (hardly any hip scored etc). This is perfect nonsense. Have a look at the good breeders producing the dogs you are referring to, they are hip scored, elbow scored and haemophilia tested.

> as all being loving companions-not trembling physical wrecks that only see the outside world on show days(A certain dog that was subsequently BIS @ Crufts, got free from it's bench & ran into the BIS ring trying to escape, it then started slowly circling the ring & when approached frozen into the breed stance & then crawled away, when it was captured is was a quivering heap-but still got BOB & the CC-And Yes this was a GSD sorry"Alsatian"! & yes I did see it-whilst showing another breed) Again this statement is another over the top reaction, I'm not saying that it isn't true, I am saying it does not apply to every non-german type dog. Most of the 'pet' German Shepherds I meet, and my own, are not quivering wrecks, but happy confident and outgoing. As I type this reply my younger boy is on his way to Paws in the Park to compete in agility.

There are extremes in all breeds, and puppy farmers will produce dogs that are lacking in conformation and/or temperament, but we are not talking about puppy farmed dogs here (on second thoughts maybe we are). In fact I do think that the temperament testing before a dog could compete/breed would be a fantastic idea here, as it is one area that I would consider paramount in the breed.

My dogs have protected me too in certain situations, just as I would expect. They are also active, good with people and other dogs, and are much loved PETS. 

I wasn't suggesting that working dog lines were not good pets because of temperament, but because they really need to be worked and most pet owners won't be doing Schutzhund or tracking. So they are high drive, without any outlet for that drive. That is what can make them the inappropriate lines for SOME pet owners. Of course all dogs must have a good temperament, so you've lost me there, I don't quite know how you think I was suggesting otherwise.

>
> if you have no interest in the working ability of the GSD then you have an interest only in the visual side of the breed, the GSD's working ability is part & parcel of it's make up & cannot be disregarded just because the outer appearance is all you are interested in 

-again, what led you to believe that I am only interested in their appearance? There are many characteristics I love about the GSD, and I enjoy doing obedience and agility with my two. I am however not interested in working them - doesn't mean I only like the way they look! 

BTW MM, you have not commented upon Spenders link, showing a beautiful gaiting GSD. What are your thoughts?

> Bearing in mind that the winner was shown to be health impaired

A very questionable statement ;) Might have been better to write "Bearing in mind that the winner was alleged to be health impaired"

This point was raised with Bill Lambert on the Radio 5 programme after the TV show. He said that the question had been raised in the newspapers after Crufts, and evidence from the owner's vet had shown it not to be true. He also stated that if the programme makers had further evidence the KC would, of course, consider it - and if it was proven then acion would be taken.

What the programme was alleging, in fact, was that the vet in question had colluded with the owner to give false information. A very serious accusation, that would surely lead to disciplinary action by the RCVS. IMHO if the programme makers had any really concrete evidence they would already have published it fully and challenged the KC to action - they were quick enough to do that with tregard to the Rhodesian Ridgeback club's code of ethics!

So why did the dog in question warrant an operation on it's "throat" if it's health wasn't impaired?  Surely if the problem wasn't of a respiratory nature these accusations could be cleared up in no time.  After all the breeder was very swift and clear in stating at the time that the operation was not for cosmetic reasons.

Are the treatment details of a dog freely available to just anyone ? Does the vet not need permission from the client to diclose to a third party? If the breeder had something to hide would they give the go ahead for the vet to give the information? Where the production team given permission for the information they allegardly have and if so has it been fully disclosed or has apartial diagnosis been disclosed.

Y.  From what any of us saw

Ok, the lies were absolute. The lady who most definatly said she would never MRI, ever. The lady with the ridgeback who had such a high handed attitude, regarding culling the puppies. Quite obvious this has gone on for years, as the young vets won't do it so they go back to the old vets who will.....and she could see no reason why it shouldn't happen. The crippled dogs, barely able to walk yet winning....that cannot be taken away, any cutting will not take that away.

>EXACTLY.  From what any of us saw - but according to the dog papers over the weeks since aired, many of those who did give valuable and in depth input were either missed out entirely or some of what was said taken entirely out of context.

>Do you get the popular weekly dog press?  Many folks have put their names to what happened whether cut out entirely or sensationally edited.  Including several folks who certainly came across very badly indeed (hmmm, like the KC)<

above is what I wrote with the emphasis (bold) on my reply to you now highlighted.  At no point have I said " the lies were absolute" nor have I implied that I agree with the practices of some minority breeders in some of the minority of breeds covered. 

Why are you trying to either twist or read between the lines what I've said?  Are you part of Passionate Productions   It seems to me that it's this need to pick over the bones of everything and create a *new slant* on what is said or written which undermines the much needed work being done to put things right - whether that be behind the scenes or through an expose type documentary .....

I love dogs, I want all of them to be bred with soundness, good health and exemplary characters and if shown/worked selected without fear, favour or fashion coming into it - I would have thought that was clear by now.......   

As far as I'm aware vets are not allowed to discuss treatment unless they have the owner's express permission. 

The programme was totally misleading when it said that information about the Peke had just come to light - everything that was stated about the dog on the programme basically tallied with the owners statement at the time to the original allegation of having had a facelift.  As far as I can work out all the programme makers did was just repeat something that was already public knowledge. 

Hi Chinablue,

>BTW MM, you have not commented upon Spenders link, showing a beautiful gaiting GSD. What are your thoughts?

Dingo's off lead gait was spectacular. :-) I like Fred Lanting's work too.

The GSD should be a versatile dog; a dog that can turn his paws to anything.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could excuse the instability in the hindquarters of those 2 GSD's in that BBC programme.  And I do know those 2 particular GSD's and I happen to know that one of them failed his courage test.  Show lines 25 years, even 15 years ago were not like that and many of them got their working qualifications too. 

And I for one would be darn well afraid to put a dog with such hind quarter instability through an agility course. 

Pedigrees are also quite bottlenecked, most of them got back to one bloodline; Palme and the Q litter Arminius.

But we are not alone in our thinking Kat, many UK breeders have left the show scene because of the way the German show line GSD has gone, others are bringing in working blood right now to correct type, induce genetic diversify to give better health and vitality.   The SV is also behind more genetic diversity and correcting hind leg angulations to give better stability in the hindquarters.   I think Germany is fully aware of the improvements required but when we get hardened breeders or judges that refuse to change their mindset it can take quite a while for things to improve.

They stated that the dog had, had a certain operation at a certain veterinary hospital and what that operation was for,an inherited problem.
The KC made a statement at the time of the investigation in 2003 that the operation had been for an aquired condition due to infection. The procedure carried out could well have been one that would cure either problem who had the veterinary evidence.

I remember very well at the time that it was stated in the dog press the operation was for a respiratory condition.

Aren't respiratory problems inherited in Peke's?

Having been stitched up by a radio station in the past, I now will only go on the radio if it live radio.

Yes, that is the problem, sometimes we can have some say in the questions we are being asked, but when it comes to editing we have no powers they can make a statement or programme to suit their own needs, any which way they wish.  Unless we trust those putting the show together there is little we can do.

After what was done on the first show, I would be very untrusting.

The annoying thing is I'm also one of those who has gone on and one about health tests, good breeders, something needs doing, the KC need to speak out and let people know about what constitues a good breeder etc, and boy I got what I wanted, unfortuantely the finger was pointed in the wrong direction, but perhaps even though it was directed at the top the knowledge and worries have been put in the minds of the General public to filter down into the BYB's and puppyfarms, perhaps now the dust has settled that part of the programme will do it's job regarding health tests.

As to a follow up, what good will it do, some breeds will take longer to recover from the health bashing, but when it comes to breed standards, whether the programme is 2 years in the making or not, 10 years would be more appropriate to show any changes if and when they happen, what good is a follow up now, there is no counteraction that the KC can give, even if anyone were to trust a new programme to show all the good breeding and health testing and breeding programmes happening, all that would do is make some breeds more popular and hence a boom in unsupervised breeding again. A puppyfarmers dream, 'we are selling the healthiest breeds as per tv programme' I don't feel it would do the dog world any good, not with regards to over-breeding and population booms,

Those in the dog world know what they know and who to deal with, the programme will make little difference to them, so it is only the general public people are worried about and they will hopefully just be more aware of health testing, which IMO isn't a bad thing now that my horror of the show has subsided.

The Nazi and horror tactics they showed I can easily just now laugh at, they were so absurd, and I'm pretty sure others will also think that was just too far.

We needed a show to point out the health defects, it is what I know I have wanted for a long time, maybe in the long run it will not be as black as we thought.

I truly can't see what a follow up show can achieve.

> I remember very well at the time that it was stated in the dog press the operation was for a respiratory condition.

No as this link to a page from the dog press shows it was stated it was due to infection which as far as I'm aware isnt an inherited problem in any breed.
Edited to say Sorry I have made a slight mistake the KC said an "aquired condition" it was the owner that explained it was due to an infection however the KC had the veterinary evidence.

Sounds like sermantics to me!

Why?
Is an acquired condition the same as an inherited one? No so either it is one or the other.

Obviously there's a huge difference - but unfortunately in a breed which suffers from respiratory problems it's difficult to be convinced that a dog with an "acquired" respiratory condition - serious enough to warrant operation (never mind one who had to stand on an icepack) isn't impaired healthwise. 

That is why the veterinary evidence is  important and if the production company was privey to it or if they drew their own conclusions from the information they  had.

I said the lies were absolute, and they were, as were some of the other points. Like it or not, it showed some aspects and people involved in dog showing and breeding at the top of the tree to be sadly lacking, and some very poor dogs winning prizes and no doubt being bred from. It has opened a can of worms, like it or not.


Why are you trying to either twist or read between the lines what I've said?
Doing neither, just stating what I saw. And no, I don't belong to any news group or whatever.

I love dogs, I want all of them to be bred with soundness, good health and exemplary characters and if shown/worked selected without fear, favour or fashion coming into it - I would have thought that was clear by now

That you are is clear, that others don't hold the same degree came across quite clearly and its those people that need to clean up their act, and the KC needs to support its name and reputation. maybe now it will have too.

Calmstorm,

the programme as you know dealt with less then a handful of breeders (in some cases only one) in each of only a handful of breeds.  It seems that it was not in the production company's best interests - i.e. sensationalism - to show interviews held with responsible breeders, exhibitors et al.  While I hope none of us could ever condone anyone with any knowledge and true love for their breed refusing to health test for such a serious condition as the Cav breeder quickly dismissed, it nevertheless requires that things be kept in perspective.

> Like it or not, it showed some aspects and people involved in dog showing and breeding at the top of the tree to be sadly lacking,

It depicted that but as for it being true it's quite simply not -  just because one drunken 17yr old boy gets behind the wheel of a car doesn't mean that all boys of that age should be banned from driving or derserve their reputation sullied; one less capable nurse in a hospital doesn't mean that the whole system is failing or all patients across all wards compromised and certainly not that the NHS is likely to be brought to it's knees; one politician caught lying doesn't mean all are liars (OK, could've picked a better one than that :-D )  I could go on but I think you'll get my drift.

To be at the top of the tree and stay there with a dog or dogs from one's breeding requires a lot of dedication through the original choice of stud and brood to match, careful raising of the litter, nit-picking assessment of the progeny and then when the future prospect is identified comes years of ensuring keeping the dog at it's peak of condition - top nutrition, careful and consistent exercise, countless hours of training all of course ensuring the dog is and remains in excellent health.  Just because a VERY tiny minority are too lazy, greedy or uncaring to put into their dogs what is the norm for the majority of us doesn't mean the show world or it's fans are in peril or that by far and away most breeders are lacking.

This has all been blown out of proportion and unfortunately those less knowledgable (i.e. Joe Public) of the world of pedigree dog breeding are being entirely mislead and will soon pay the price of having gone elsewhere for hybrid vigour - which is of course a snip at £1k+ it seems :(

Spender
Thank you thank you for soothing my troubled brow :) I do get quite hot under the collar sometimes. I love the fact that the gaiting shepherds nickname (?) was Dingo, I had a lovely dog, now gone who I used to call my dingo dog, bless. Strange how quiet my query about your linke has gone, not commented on at all despite my repeated mention of it :)

Can you give me more info about Dingo, I would love to look him up.

I think Fred Lanting had it in one - 'the push for push', but it is so sad as you say, that hardened breeders and judges cannot see what is evident for everyone else to see. We met one of this type of shepherd who was 18 months old. My lad was then 3 and they were having a lovely little game, until my Indy knocked him flat, and he didn't do much for it to happen. The poor dog was yelping and holding up his rear leg afterwards. He was indeed very unstable. My youngest is very athletic and has the longer croup (but not the 'roach' back), and is very agile. (Paws in the Park was only his second competition - bless) but again like you say I would shudder at the thought of one of of those shepherds doing agility. It has all set me thinking though, and on researching my dogs lines I was surprised at the amount of german lines in their backgrounds (some champions :). Looking at the german dogs in their lines they are really nice, and not overdone.

I find it extremely interesting that one of these dogs failed his courage test, I was getting the impression that temperament faults only ever ocurred in 'alsatians'..........well there you go :)

> But we are not alone in our thinking Kat, many UK breeders have left the show scene because of the way the German show line GSD has gone 

- again, how sad, because we need their voices or this madness will continue and I dread to think what would happen

What really gets to me is that the Crufts judge said that the GSD was 'a heartbreaker' and a beautiful example of German type. Since when did the 'German type' appear in the KC breed standard?

Hopefully, as a breed to be 'reviewed' by the KC, the existing over angulated german type will be banished altogether, and this will encourage UK breeders to enter the show scene again, and encourage others to breed back to a good overall type. As you say - a versatile dog, and if I got my way, one that can move like Dingo :).  It's encouraging, and I shall have a look at the bloodlines you've quoted, as I am really interested in this whole picture.

> The SV is also behind more genetic diversity and correcting hind leg angulations to give better stability in the hindquarters.

That at least raises some hope that even the exalted SV recognise there is a problem - so long as the hardened breeders and judges accept it, they seem to find it so hard to even consider that the current type could have any faults.

Kat

Is it true that the person who started all of this now regrets the can of worms that she has opened?  Somebody has state dthis on another forum.  Wonder if she is truly regretting it now?

It would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. And dont forget whichever side of the fence anyone is on, she has no doubt made more money out of these poor animals than any of the breeders.

If there was true regret the follow up programme would be going in an entirely different direction to what seems to be the case from the questions being asked.

Do you have any more info on things Gillian?   I doubt that there will be anything regretted by the initial doc - it must make it even more exciting doing a follow up considering the backlash from the initial show :(

> Is it true that the person who started all of this now regrets the can of worms that she has opened?  Somebody has state dthis on another forum.  Wonder if she is truly regretting it now? <

No she isn't regretting this can of worms, she is making a sequel and has also told me yesterday she is thinking about doing a TV program about Dangerous Dogs.

> No she isn't regretting this can of worms, she is making a sequel and has also told me yesterday she is thinking about doing a TV program about Dangerous Dogs.

They have been contacted a Border Collie breeder & said they had footage of Border Collies attacking judges !! No mystery then as to one of the breeds to be featured <rolleyes>

Hi Kat,

>Can you give me more info about Dingo; I would love to look him up.

I'll send you some info by PM; don't want to take this off topic. :-) 

>I was getting the impression that temperament faults only ever ocurred in 'alsatians'..........well there you go :)

There is good and bad in all 'types', it's doing the breed no favours at all having all these divisions IMO.

>That at least raises some hope that even the exalted SV recognise there is a problem

We took the plunge and went to a show today, first one in 22 years   Anyhow the judging I thought was impressive.  Both judges judged at the Dutch Sieger and the comments they passed ref hocks, roached backs, overdone angulations etc, etc, etc is pretty much what we've been saying here.   In the main, some very nice bitches and a particularly nice veteran winner, he was my fav in the dogs, better stability in the hind quarters in my view at 10 1/2 than some of the youngsters.

Thanks, I'll await some info, I thought he was glorious!

Glad you enjoyed your show (which was it?), and the remarks and judging sounds very, very encouraging, perhaps they will be able to change the 'hardliners' minds, or at least open them up a little.

I'm sorry to admit that I was being sarcastic with my 'alsatians' remark, though I expect you guessed that - not at you though :) A particular poster using this terminology was the recipient, and I am quite aware that it is used in an inflammatory way - and there's me just ready and waiting to get inflamed :) I really wish I had your poise and restraint in my postings!
Kat

All I can say is thank God I spend my evening out with my dogs and helping other people train their dogs and give their dogs a higher quality of live - and not sat indoors all hours on my sofa watching tv!

The media is to make the lives of people with nothing real to do more exiting by giving them lots of media invented drama to spice up their lives. It is a shame thet the dog wardens, the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust folk  etc  are doing nothing other then watching TV when they could be taking on additional responsibilities with their free time to enhance the lives of the dogs within our communities. Then they would know what was really going on in the dog world and not just what they saw on the TV.

If the meda want a real target they should look at who fills the rescue kennels up with unwanted dogs, why we need dog wardens and why organisations such as the RSPCA were established!  Do something real and good for dog welfare and not just play the media sensasionlist viewer rating game!

If they want higher rating of viewers they should show more of what dogs can do and get involved much more in the possitive aspects of dog ownership.

Media is another form of art. You only win a name for yourself by doing something bad. 

The media is to make the lives of people with nothing real to do more exiting by giving them lots of media invented drama to spice up their lives. It is a shame thet the dog wardens, the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust folk  etc  are doing nothing other then watching TV when they could be taking on additional responsibilities with their free time to enhance the lives of the dogs within our communities. Then they would know what was really going on in the dog world and not just what they saw on the TV.

WOW, thats a bit harsh....these are the 'grass routes' people, the ones that do the work and take the flack rather than the 'suits'. I doubt they just watch TV of an evening, and even if they did...well its relaxing time? They may have families, other hobbies, loads of things (maybe even connected with animals :) ) that they do on their time off, its a bit unfair to say they have to take on aditional responsibilities (unpaid) for their job, can't see many in other occupations offering this (although no doubt someone will know someone ;) ) Don't they deserve time off and free evenings, like the rest of us?

Well, I have penned my complaint to the BBC about the biased coverage and no explanation that the majority of breeders are doing the best possible for their beloved breeds and thanking them for opening the flood gates for the puppy farmers to breed dogs purely for profit with the battle cry 'don't buy a KC registered dog as it is unhealthy'. Have asked for a reply.

Everyone works. But dog trainers etc are all voluntary, just like many people who work with kids. They work all day with kids then give up time to run the youth groups and kids groups.

So yes most peoole I know who really believe in what they do earn their living working in their chosen vocation and also work as volunteers in some of ther evenings and time off. This is how this country works socially.  Yes 'the rest of us' do this and have always done this and so yes anyone who is so interssted in an area to the extent they are making such a major statement should be giving up time and 'putting their money where their mouth is'. Because if people who feel so strongly won't then who will?

I'm quite sure most people on here do do already and have done so most of their working lives in whatever capacity they can. As will a vast amount of paid employees of the RSPCA etc...

Seriously anyone who just sits in and watches TV and believes in what they see is a little bit lacking in common sense!

and thanking them for opening the flood gates for the puppy farmers to breed dogs purely for profit with the battle cry 'don't buy a KC registered dog as it is unhealthy'.
absolutely! Crackers.  There is some truth in it for some breeders but the emphasis should be on educating the public in  how to tell good breeding from poor breeding and in understanding what health checks they should themselves be insisting on before they buy a puppy. It's the people who but pups who decide which breeders to promote - and it will be the puppy farms who know how to spin a sales pitch the public will lap up.

Breeders I know take the health of their dogs very seriously and are very open about the results of health/genetic tests, and try their brst to bring pups into the world who will be as free from health issues as is possible. It could well be that all this testing is held against them. Because non pedegree dogs and non show dogs are not being researched and tested in this way so they do not have genetic problems and health issues. lol. Funny how many I know who can't walk properly by the time they are 4!

>All I can say is thank God I spend my evening out with my dogs and helping other people train their dogs and give their dogs a higher quality of live - and not sat indoors all hours on my sofa watching tv!

Good for you if that's your choice but it doesn't put you on some higher platform than anyone else :)  Personally I prefer to spend some much needed family time of an evening - sitting down together for dinner around the table and each chatting about their day at work/home/play.  We each have different interests but are supportive of one another and in my family although we may have fairly regular hobbies to pursue we more often than not have a slouch on the sofa of an evening with the TV nothing more than a background noise - it's just our preferred form of relaxation.

> Seriously anyone who just sits in and watches TV and believes in what they see is a little bit lacking in common sense!

Bit of a sweeping statement there Tenaj - that's you probably just wiped out more than half the UK population as no hopers or no brains ;)  Everyone, regardless of their profession, fields of interest, passions, policitics etc is entitled to some chill out time and if that's watching TV then so what?

You're not trying to tell me Corrie isn't for real?    I've grown up with those people, walked down their street - comes across more as a fly on the wall documentary :-D

Bit of a sweeping statement there Tenaj - that's you probably just wiped out more than half the UK population as no hopers or no brains   Everyone, regardless of their profession, fields of interest, passions, policitics etc is entitled to some chill out time and if that's watching TV then so what?
you watch it but you don't believe it!  It's all a form of entertainment!  Not a presentation of solid fact or truth. Even the news is exaggerated and biased!

We were not discussing soaps we were discussing 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed'. So it is fact? Rubbish. It was a twisted and highly biased presentation. As are a hell of a lot of media presentations. Designed to rock the boat and wind people up rather then to present a clear and balanced insight into a subject. ( as in someting like 'Coast' which is aimed at presenting the public with some relaxing and honest informative viewing.   )

Well I do hope other people are helping out there with the voluntary groups or the clubs will soon all have to shut down.  It's a shame.

> you watch it but you don't believe it!&nbsp; It's all a form of entertainment!&nbsp; Not a presentation of solid fact or truth. Even the news is exaggerated and biased!
>

That rather depends on what I'm watching - there are a great many documentaries and factual programmes shown on terrestrial and satellite TV :)  I rather think that some are better researched than others and consequently entertaining and believable

> Well I do hope other people are helping out there with the voluntary groups or the clubs will soon all have to shut down

I'm sure there are many but it would be grossly unfair as much as unrealistic to expect everyone to hold your passion for voluntary work, don't you think?  Not everyone is cut out for it never mind has sufficient free time to offer to become involved and as we shouldn't pigeon hole every individual or household on what we personally feel they 'ought' to be doing, then IMO skipping the dog training routine regime doesn't make them any less caring or compassionate than you :)

ETA:  I see you've edited and added to your reply so best I respond directly :)

>We were not discussing soaps we were discussing 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed'. So it is fact? Rubbish. It was a twisted and highly biased presentation. As are a hell of a lot of media presentations.

I think you'll find that the CD membership agree that the documentary in question was heavily biased and sensationalised and made way for the general public to see a very seedy side of our interest - BUT, the SM affected CKC and the fitting boxer were REAL.  Admittedly health problems so graphically portrayed are in a distinct minority of breeds and numbers within breeds and comments from breeders and the KC were heavily edited to put a slant in keeping with the desired sensational end product - HOWEVER, denying these things happen entirely is fool hardy and IMO only serves to further reduce the credibility of those of us intimately involved in the pedigree dog world.

> You're not trying to tell me Corrie isn't for real? I've grown up with those people, walked down their street - comes across more as a fly on the wall documentary <

Steady Old Girl,
Irony may be lost on US ........the brain addled, time wasters of society.
Personally I had a much warmer glow of satisfation suffusing my body after watching 'Strickly' than I got from taking my last training class :-(
A 'community service' I've provided for more years than I care to remember.