> As I understand it etiquette requires that people do not enter champions in open shows, though obviously there is no official rule as such

As far as I know Open shows are exactly that, 'Open to all' and there is no etiquette about it, just some people don't like having to compete against champions and making those who own them feel bad.

It certainly isn't the done thing to not show champions in my breed at Open shows, sometimes they are the only entrants, but that is because we have a small turn over of exhibits with dogs being shown for around 10 years, and of course we don't have many sets of CC's or Non CC champ shows.

Then Crufts BIS winner would be one such.

I believe this was the owners first show dog.

Funny how after he started wining regularly at top levels people suddenly considered them faces.

Do you really think I am sending out cynical views ? I thought I was being realistic. I have not being showing for a long time but do keep my eyes and ears open. I have seen many newcomers stop showing their dogs because of the unfairness of it all, not because of a bystanders opinions.
I apologize if you think I have come on a bit strong but I do find it upsetting when people stop showing because of the politics involved and I think that those who show Champions at Open shows have to take responsibility for the disappearance of newcomers to our hobby due to never being given a chance to compete in a group with their 'pride and joy' and being continually disillusioned. My shoulders are broad, I can take it, others may be more sensitive.

Hi again crinklecut,

I didn't mean to be too personal and certainly not insulting towards you - I hope my replies haven't come across as that :)
You say:-

> I have not being showing for a long time but do keep my eyes and ears open

I presumed (wrongly it would seem!) that because you'd mentioned earlier

>this is not sour grapes, I have Champions but would not dream of entering them into an Open show

that you had a fairly lengthy involvement in the show scene but these two points you've made would not then marry up so I'm a little confused (don't you just love that little icon :-D )  You seemed IMO (initially) to have a rather lack lustre opinion of the honesty, integrity and fairness in general to be found in the UK show system yet you already have made up champions despite not having exhibited for long.  I'd have thought you to be exactly the type of exhiitor who gives confidence to new comers since your own experience has been such an incredibly positive and successful one :)

As I've mentioned, this is by no means unheard of but I'm pleased that we have someone on board who is one of that number - I'd have thought you would feel naturally drawn to encourage new generations of exhibitors to stick with this hobby in good times and bad since you have your own successes to draw on and share with them :)

regards, Teri

Well said Terri, I heartily endorse everything you have said. Lets try and move forward. One of the first things I was taught was to Never get in the habit of Fault judging, as every dog has at least one fault (however minor we may think it is). Maybe we should bear this in mind when critisising our judges too.

Hi Teri

I have not taken your replies as insulting, at the end of the day (I hate that expression) this is a discussion group and we are not always going to agree. I have been incredibly lucky with the dogs I have chosen and have learned by experience and by listening to others to be more selective about where I show. I used to go everywhere because I felt the need to support the societies who put on classes for my breed and also to support the judges, but I am afraid these days I am getting rather more picky. Yesterday at Driffield for example, a judge who is due to judge us soon stood by the ring and watched most of the judging.I have never seen him around our ring before. He is one of these 'in by the back door judges' (ie judges development program). I will not be giving him an entry.

> I think that those who show Champions at Open shows have to take responsibility for the disappearance of newcomers to our hobby due to never being given a chance to compete in a group with their 'pride and joy' and being continually disillusioned

Well I have basically given up showing at Open shows because of the lack of competition in depth.  Costs the same in Petrol to go to Open shows so I prefer to keep my money for the champ shows where I have a chance to compete with the best of my breed.

I agree. Only showing against 'average' rivals isn't much fun really. Competing (yes, and sometimes winning!) against 'quality' is much mroe meaningful.

Also of course even if the entry in your catchment area is all quality  you find your competing against the same 3 or four dogs for years in my breed.

At one point the dogs in my breed shown locally were of similar standard, all CC winners or champions,a nd it was like taking turns, as a given judge could choose which they liked and not be wrong.

So I actually prefer not to have breed classes, but then you get judges who don't know the breed at all, unless it is the group judge, which then means you might only get to show under one judge, or only one class (and I prefer to shwo two dogs) none of which I want to do.

> Hi Teri
>
> I have not taken your replies as insulting

That's good :  It's sometimes quite difficult trying to word things when replying to someone holding an alternative view - having smileys/emoticons helps but it's not quite the same as inflections in tone, facial expressions etc!

> at the end of the day (I hate that expression)

LOL you and me both crinklecut yet I seem to use it quite a lot :-D  It's a bit like "by the way" or "when all's said and done" (crumbs, I gotta million of 'em :-o )  Ironically I never use these phrases in speach, but they seem to trip off the fingers very easily .....

Hi Marion, thanks :)

> Maybe we should bear this in mind when critisising our judges too

Its difficult to get the balance right regardless of which side of the ring we're participating on - I hate fault judging of dogs, anyone can do that and sometimes I've overheard someone ripping apart a dog that actually has many virtues but if eavesdropping were to be the only basis of clues we had to go on we'd expect it to be a donkey, and a poor one at that :-D

Equally judging isn't for the faint hearted - I sometimes wish we had more systems in place whereby trainee judges always had to shadow a certain amount of senior judges at champ level, not just specialists but a reasonable split of both specialist and multi breed judges.  If there was sufficient time and agreement for this type of scheme it would IMO be of greater benefit than the current rule of 12 stewarding appointments for aspirng judges.  Not that stewards don't get the opportunity to observe classes up close and personal and often get some insight from the judge personally also but to have the benefit of expert coaching re breed points when in a champ show situation would I feel better assist our trainees.

In my own (continental) breed our champ shows have very thorough written crits (on the day) complete with gradings on every single dog, regardless of placings.  Scribes are provided to take down the crit for each judge.  This provides a very similar form of explanation and coaching to those able to scribe at the two champ shows each year and I'm sure helps greatly in forming a view of all the breed points which need to be considered  - IMO a useful tool for those wishing to progress to take up the written exams required for moving further up the judging lists :)

Ringside judging is part and parcel of our hobby - not necessarily for the greater good but impossible to stop :(

regards, Teri

First off, if a champion isnt supposed to be shown at shows once its a champion, what do they do?  I enjoy specialing my dogs, its kinda a brag thing.
And here, champions 9/10 win the breed.  Judges are scared to put an open dog above a CH, as at least 3 judges said that the CH was a good dog. 

Here is my predictable judging story:

I was at the Breeders show, last year with my min pin Cher.  The judge commented on how much he liked my dog at my local show, and that she was "the most gorgeous pin he had ever seen".  So I entered under him, thinking I had a chance at the breed. 

Get at the show, and watched the judging for the entire group, starting with the Affenpinscher.  And I watched the judge very carefully - as I always do.  I dont believe I once saw this judge look down at a dog!  It got to the point, before my breed was in the ring, that I watched the judge while exibitors were entering the ring I would pick the winner.  His tell: he tipped his head to the one that would eventually take the breed. 

I wasnt showing my own dog that day (was on crutches) so I watched as the same person that showed my dog at the local show a couple months earlier walked in the ring with my dog.  Then I watched the rest of the dogs entered.  I said to myself "That one will take breed" (I didnt like the dog - was oversized).  My dog was dumped, and the dog I "guessed" took breed. 

While talking to a friend of mine, he said "If I had taken your dog in, you would have finished her.  I always win under said judge".  Yes, that is most likely true, but I wanted my dog to deserve the win, not get it because of who was holding the leash.  And frankly, the person showing my dog, had more ring experience than the judges friend, and did quite well showing my dog. 

Its things like that, that make showing horrid for newbies, or people who dont fall into a clique.  I am not a newbie, but I dont really have a clique, I talk with a lot of people, and hardly any of them are in the toy group!!!!

It's a no-no in my breed too, in fact I even got some sour comments when I took my single CC winner to open shows - even though unlike many of those people, I did not have an up and coming youngster to bring, so it was take my boy or take nothing.

Think it does very much depend on breed. Until relatively recently, it was very rare to see a champion at championship shows in my breed, let alone an open show. Some people are now continuing to bring them out though, and as Lucy says I suspect that it may have a lot to do with the changing form of dog showing, in that people don't tend to have a large kennel at home with the next youngster 'coming along' to take their place, although some are from bigger kennels.

M.

As a total newcomer to 'proper' dog showing, i have followed this thread with interest. I do have experience of horse showing, where faciness is so bad that the professionals have seperate classes to the ameteurs. I also have a friend who showed her dogs successfully and she once told me that yes, dog showing can be facey, but you get yourself a good dog, then you become a 'face' yourself. Not sure if her statement is accurate or not, maybe she didn't word it well?

I do worry about not doing well as I am 'new' and there are large entries in my breed usually. I don't mind not doing well if my dogs aren't the best in the class, or even if they are the worst, but I am sure the judge is a judge because they are a better judge of that than I am. :-) I am well prepare dot accept defeat gracefully, pick myself up, dust myself off and move on to the next show.

As for Champiosn entering open shows, I'm probably not 'qualified' to comment, but it wouldn't bother me. I would rather come placed after a champion/s than an untitled dog, as surely then you have a mark of how good the dog/s that beat you is?

I dont know about predictable I do sometimes feel that judges are 'afraid' for want of a better word to go against a top winning dog.  If a dog is on a roll it does take a lot of courage and a very opinionated person to go against a trend.  It annoys me when these dogs have a problem or are not at their best and then get the tickets on the other hand if they are on top form they should get a ticket.

I think it is very hard when you first start showing to be objective about your dog.  I know I thought our first champion and our fist show dog was the most perfect dog on the planet  ;) but she wasnt she had faults and it is only through experience and breeding better quality dogs I recognise the faults she did have.  I do sometimes wonder how she got her title though to be honest.

I have been to shows where I have known we were up for the ticket however that is because the judges have always said how much they admired the dogs.  It is not because of who we are but they have told us and everyone else how much they like our dog or we have won well under them previously. :)  I have also lost as the judge said my girlie looked too skinny on the day which I accepted in good grace as he was right.

Dog showing does have its dark side but the only person to blame for that is the person stood in the middle of the ring.

Hi Crespin - with the showing system being so different over your side of the pond it's harder to make comparisons.  Various riends in the US have filled me in on the AKC and UKC methods and merits (and not so!)

Most of our breeds have to go through much larger breed classes before gaining BOB and often they will have been judged by specialists in those breeds rather than multi-breed judges (although we get those also).  It would only be in Ch Group and BIS situations where we would have a multi-breed judge officiating.

Champions often get beaten in breed rings - in my own breed less are shown these days but then less of everything is shown so it's not due to etiquette reasons (political - maybe, but certainly not etiquette ;) )

Sometimes a breed has a dog that seems to dominate - because it's on top form and has amassed a lot of wins and with that naturally comes much attention.   Such a dog can soon become or aim for being a record holder within that breed and this of course can cost some high quality dogs to not gain their title.  Some have issues with that and others not - I suspect so long as said dog only wins on days when it is looking and performing at it's peak then nobody minds.  If a judge, whether in breed or group puts it forward based on 'how it can perform' rather than 'how it does perform on the day' then naturally that annoys everyone and (more importantly IMO) shows the judge up to be either too weak to make the correct decision or too inexperienced :)

There seems to be a greater sway in the UK of late towards "top" everything from breeder, stud & brood filtering through to Group results - few of us can achieve these dizzy heights and I suspect very few ever aspire to it.  So long as we are judged fairly and squarely and our dog has enjoyed its day then I think most exhibitors, thankfully, are sporting and happy to support their BOB representative in the Group - basically enjoying the social scene as much as anything else :)

regards, Teri

Hi jackson,

I hope nothing in this thread has put you off or dampened your enthusiasm :)  Dog showing needs YOU (conjuring up mental picture of army poster here LOL) because without new exhibitors and revived interest from some who may have dabbled in years gone by, it cannont continue.  There's a limit to how long anyone stays in a sport - yes, some exhibitors go on to make a living out of judging dogs world wide but they are VERY thin on the ground and more often than not way past retiring age so have the freedom to do it.

Personal health, finances, grandchildren, elderly dogs, mobility etc can all play a major part in putting an end to our abilities to spend every weekend throughout Spring, Summer & Fall at a show involving a 500+ mile round trip.  Dah, Dah, Dah, Daaaaahhh - Cue the newbies :-D The younger, more active, financially secure(ish) and with refreshing enthusiasm come on board and so, thankfully, the circle continues.

> I am well prepare dot accept defeat gracefully, pick myself up, dust myself off and move on to the next show.

Well said jackson!!!!  This is exactly the view that all of us should hold and maintain - it's a hobby, and a very expensive one, what kind of numpty keeps it going if they don't enjoy it ;)

Good attitude kiddo - Good luck!
Teri

Hi Jackson, don't worry, the majority of judging is pretty fair. As I said, I have a dog with a CC - he also has a ShCM (awards gained for Best of Breed and Group wins at open shows), 2 Firsts at Crufts, he just missed his Junior Warrant, and he was placed at most Champ shows he attended. And I have never owned a pet dog before, never mind a show dog. So I (or he!) am living proof that you CAN do it without being a face. Don't think being placed after an untitled dog is 'less good' than being placed after a Champion though, not all the best dogs at the show will have their titles. :-)

It can be hard to get hold of a 'good' dog, specially in some breeds, and of course your dog may be mostly good but have the one tiny fault that the judge you go under on any one day cannot stand - judging is terribly subjective even when it is far. But if you have a fairly thick skin and the ability to shrug off the embarrassing things the dogs like to do to you in the ring, you can have great fun and bring some rosettes home too!

Thank you for your post Teri.  I have been a loomer on the showing board, basically my whole time here, and only commented when it came to advice first show, or when I have a question. 

I think it would be nicer to show in the UK, than in Canada sometimes.  Everything seems to be more fair, and it is a better experience as a whole. 

Here, it is very facey, and I have had to work so hard to become one of those faces.  I started regularly showing dogs 5 years ago, and it is just now, that I am becoming a face.  Before 5 years ago, I was a newbie, and was looked over a lot.  But I started my showing with a good quality dog, and have just continued, paid my "dues" and it seems to be helping now.

Here, too, it seems certain breeds to better than others.  If I see a Doberman in the Best In Show line up, chances are good, that it will take the show.  Also, same is true about a Standard Poodle.  I can count on my one finger of knuckles how many times I have seen a dog from the toy group take show.  And when newbies see that, it is a bit discouraging.

So props to the UK way of showing.  It may be confusing to an outsider like me at times, but it does seem to be a bit more fair. 

Hi aagain Kory,

If you listen to the ringside anywhere I'm sure there's good and bad wherever we're based LOL. 

Certainly over here we don't have the number of pro handlers that are common in the US - apologies, I don't know if this is a trend in Canada too.  I know that one of mine in America was twice requested by pro handlers to 'special' with numerous other breeds they had taken on but mine is thankfully first and foremost a family dog so although flattered to have been approached, the owners prefer to have her with them and show where and when they can :)

We do have a few high profile pro handlers in the UK who certainly regularly feature in the BIS ring but TBH those I'm thinking of only ever take on the creme de la creme and then present them to perfection so it's difficult to look beyond the dogs they campaign.

I do like the fact that over here most breeders' concern is strictly the breed ring rather than further awards - I think that helps a lot of breeds to retain honesty and type and not become over exaggerated in gait or coat simply to stand out from the crowd in a group.

regards, Teri :)

Certainly over here we don't have the number of pro handlers that are common in the US - apologies, I don't know if this is a trend in Canada too.

We do have a lot of pro handlers here, its a bit rare to actually see the words Breeder/Owner/Handler.  And if you do, its people that have been around for eons!!!!  To try and counteract this, we have Best Bred By shows where only dogs entered are handled by the person that bred them.  But these days are few and far between. 

Here my goals were CH, BOB, Group Placement, Group first, and then show. 

> As far as I know Open shows are exactly that, 'Open to all' and there is no etiquette about it, just some people don't like having to compete against champions and making those who own them feel bad.

That sounds rather as though you are implying that is what I do! It is merely what I have been told, and out of two breeds and a lot of open shows I have been to, I have only ever seen one champion exhibited at an open show - so while the rules dictate champions can be entered I understood it was not the done thing.....

>so while the rules dictate champions can be entered I understood it was not the done thing.....

It could be that owners of champions either think Open shows are somehow 'beneath them', or (more likely) think they'll be frowned on (by people who think it's unfair) if they enter.

> It could be that owners of champions either think Open shows are somehow 'beneath them',

On the whole that is my experience in Gordons, you only see some of the 'big' kennel names when they have a new puppy BUT sometimes they are at opens (and to me I don't have a problem with them there on the whole) either to support a particular judge, give judge experiences or aiming for ShCM awards.

Hi Crink,

I think you rather stumbled on a part of the problem here with your statement " those who show Champions at Open shows have to take responsibility for the disappearance of newcomers to our hobby due to never being given a chance to compete in a group with their 'pride and joy' and being continually disillusioned."

It would see that people who are fairly new to this lark, do think that their first show dog is the bees knees and because they have no experience to know any better,they fall for the old " oh you really deserved to win but you've been beaten by a face".

If many of us with stickability, look back at our first show specimens we can have a good old laugh at what we then considered "Our pride and Joy".
With experience (and hopefully a great deal more knowledge) we can better judge our own and others stock.

> Here, too, it seems certain breeds to better than others.  If I see a Doberman in the Best In Show line up, chances are good, that it will take the show.  Also, same is true about a Standard Poodle.  I can count on my one finger of knuckles how many times I have seen a dog from the toy group take show.  And when newbies see that, it is a bit discouraging.
>

At UK shows though people generally aren't even aiming for a group win or BIS, they a re happy if they win a breed class, or a BOB, or at the smaller shows a place in group after showing for a few years, because competition at the breed or Not separately classified level is stronger numbers wise, so a class win or Best of Sex win is worth having especially at Championship show level.

Winning at Group or BIS level is seen as Icing on the cake..

> It would see that people who are fairly new to this lark, do think that their first show dog is the bees knees and because they have no experience to know any better,they fall for the old " oh you really deserved to win but you've been beaten by a face".

I'm new to showing but mine is the bees knees - although if he turned green overnight and grew a second head I'd still think him perfect so who am I to judge!! :)

I too have been reading this thread with interest, if only to compare to the things that I've seen and heard.  After only 9 months of showing I don't have anywhere near the breadth of experience that some people ringside have so with that in mind it is quite useful to hear the things being said.  I know enough to determine the sound of sour grapes and I think I can hear if there are 'bitchy' undertones but some of it is fascinating and much of it quite knowledgable.   I can't always understand why one dog is placed over another and from time to time I do need to come home and check my anatomy pictures!!  If I get the chance I like to pick my winners and compare them to the result;  I also like to look back at those dogs when reading the critiques but sometimes the gap between show and crits is so long it's hard to remember!!  So there's nothing like having an 'expert' doing a running commentary...

In our breed classes I've probably seen the other dogs often enough to have my own ideas but we've been lucky enough to get to Group a few times and when we're in the ring I'm concentrating so hard on us that I don't really get a chance to appreciate the other dogs properly.   In those circumstances it can be helpful to hear what others think about the dogs and the handling skills. I'm delighted to hear if some people think we should have been placed but realistic enough to know that sometimes (always?!)  they are simply being polite :) :)

I don't know about 'faces' but I can see that some breeders produce consistently good/winning stock for a range of owners.  Presumably it wouldn't be wrong to assume that they've retained only the best (bitches) would it?