Now I am no expert, so why is it then, I wonder that on many occasions I can predict what a judge will end up with for their final line up. Today was the same - I said to those around me that the judge would probably have the Irish Setter, the GSP and the Weimaraner (from the Champion Stakes Class) in her final line up.These would not have been my choice - for what it is worth -  I thought the Cocker was stunning and should have walked it. Strangely enough, they were her final four. Am I a spooky witch or is it predictable judging ?

In a way if you have a good eye for the breeds, judging ought to be predictable - because you ought to be recognising the best\ truest to standard dogs as should the judge. ;-)

> a way if you have a good eye for the breeds, judging ought to be predictable - because you ought to be recognising the best\ truest to standard dogs as should the judge.

you know its really weird, my non-doggy-in-a-huge way bf can really pick a dog. almost every time we watch a group of dogs in the ring he picks the first placed. weird, but i think valuable for the future :)

Hi crinklecut,

if you have a natural eye for balance and also appreciate the "x-factor" that is so essential in a top winning dog it is often quite straightforward to pick the ones which will make the final cut.  Sometimes of course the depth of quality can be so great or so lacking in a particular show or group that it's difficult to work out why any would stand out more than others!

At last weekend's general champ show I watched both the working and then pastoral groups being judged and 'guessed' three of the working and all four of the pastoral breeds placed :)

I think it shows you have a good understanding and appreciation of quality rather than a sixth sense ;)

regards, Teri

predictable judging MMMmm how about when you know the judge and can predict who they will place well and give the tickets too not necessarily the best dogs that an onlooker would place! ;)

agree, too much of who the human is on the end of the lead and not the dog, with a lot of judges.

What I noticed, after attending some shows one after the other, was a pattern:

Judge A from last week gave a good placing to judge B whose judging next week & judge C whose doing the week after
Judge B then gave A a good placing......plus judge C
Judge C then gave B a good placing and also gave A a good placing.

It only clicked to me when judge C was judging, I remember what A had done and then B!

At Richmond I was passing a toy breed ring and stopped with a friend to watch.
My eye was immediately taken with a STUNNING dog and I asked some spectators who it was.  " Oh that thing..... well it's obviously going to win because of who is holding the lead"  ...... " it's the breed record holder but it's all just so facey it's untrue" I didn't recognise dog or handler but it knocked my eye out and I'm a pretty good judge of a dog.

> the human is on the end of the lead and not the dog

It goes on for sure but .....
Some cant see the woods for the trees......

Could it possibly that judge A, B and C have all bred excellent dogs which is why they are invited to judge in first place :-)  Just a thought.

> It only clicked to me when judge C was judging, I remember what A had done and then B!

Have you looked to see what the breeding of their dogs are?
You may find a pattern there too...... they may appreciate the same 'type'.

Oh of course, they are all quality dogs that were placed, but I some times think when there are 5 amazing dogs all deserving of a place does the judge then think tactically?

Lol true, they all have bred excellent dogs, ok I'll explain a bit more.
Judge A had a class and 1st place dog is GORGEOUS i love him (not mine), and 2nd place is the same, how ever 1st place wasn't showing like his normally self, ears flying, leaning back just not giving it all, where as 2nd place was shinning that day really showed his socks off and some thought the places should of been the other way round, but hey 2 lovely dogs so both deserving......1st place owner was judge B, 2nd place isn't a judge.

Now in another class 1st place showed her socks off, 2nd place acted the same as 1st place from other class, neither owner judges, and judge A said to 2nd place owner she should of won & she's a cracking dog but because she wasn't showing to well she had to give it to other bitch.

So to me it looked like 1st place was given to judge B for a tactial reason? I could be wrong

Gemma86,

I know it can seem all very random but.........it's not an obedience contest. The best quality dog should win every time.
I do think it poor if a judge puts performance before quality. ......especially the performance of the handler..... I personally prefer not to even notice the handler :-)

I don't think its random, as I say both dogs in both classes were of the same quality but the judge, appeared to judge one class with performance in mind and the other with out it.

Also worth remembering that sometimes dogs which look great from the ringside can disappoint up close, just as dogs which may not look very special or appealing from outside the ring can be a revelation on physical exam :)

We all "ringside judge" - human nature :)  Sometimes we get the dogs the same as the judge based on preference for dogs of similar stamp, other times we 'guess' the dogs right but don't agree with the placings because we prefer a different stamp - then comes the cries of predictable, crooked, judging faces etc.  It could just as likely be we don't know that the one which appears to stand out has light eyes, poor pigment or worse still a wry mouth, lacks withers / forechest but is carefully groomed/stacked to disguise the eye, one testicle, or virtually no joint between shoulder and upper arm LOL, more like 'spotty dog' from the wooden tops ;)

The 'showing fool' incidentally is not always the best exhibit - my first male was such a dog, exceptionally impressive with more attitude than most of us could ever hope to achieve and never once failed to be the dog which drew any judges eye immediately they saw him BUT he growled EVERY time they went over him (bless him, I adored him and miss him greatly).  My second male was so much better in breed type, with beautiful construction and he excelled on the move but as he matured he never enjoyed the experience and wouldn't make the most of his attributes for more than the first minute he was in the ring.  Despite winning 1CC and several RCCs he was retired because by then there were up and coming youngsters which matched him for quality but had 'the edge' on attitude.

It's always easier to blame the judge for having done a bad job or try and find links between the judge and certain exhibitors, committee members etc but although I accept there is a certain amount of suspect judging and (more worryingly) inept judging, I sincerely believe most of it is honest and if we should start to feel that this hobby is basically crooked, perhaps it's time to take up another pursuit :)

I sincerely believe most of it is honest

Totally agree, and it's a shame when people are naughty! I have seen/heard people in a different breed say "if ever you're under me, i'll see you right" :(
If it were me someone had said that to, I'd not go under them, even if it was my only chance of winning well, I only want to win fairly & honestly.

It could just as likely be we don't know that the one which appears to stand out has light eyes
I've also read critques where it's been the other way round, didn't catch the judges eye outside the ring but once going over the dog fell inlove :)

> I have seen/heard people in a different breed say "if ever you're under me, i'll see you right" :-(
>

Yes I heard that recently and was told to tell everyone in the area to attend and she'd see her friends ok. In the event she didn't do her friends alright but chucked them out! Got her a big entry though :-)

> I've also read critques where it's been the other way round, didn't catch the judges eye outside the ring but once going over the dog fell inlove

Yes, I did mention that :)

>Also worth remembering that sometimes dogs which look great from the ringside can disappoint up close, just as dogs which may not look very special or appealing from outside the ring can be a revelation on physical exam

Most with any length of involvement in this game take little heed of judges who suddenly profess to love our exhibits and coincidentally have an upcoming appointment ;)  Human nature being what it is if we truly believe we are an odds on favourite to win then the 'you've got to be in it to win it' maxim comes into play :-D

LOL tooolz  - stole my punchline :-D

> Yes I heard that recently and was told to tell everyone in the area to attend and she'd see her friends ok. In the event she didn't do her friends alright but chucked them out! Got her a big entry though :-)

ha ha didn't think of it that way! :)

Gemma I believe you are fairly new to showing boxers, and without seeming to offend, I would urge you not to become one of the 'disillusioned'.
We've all been there and had the 'bitter losers cliche' telling us "you were robbed". It's only in hindsight that we see them for what they are ...perpetual losers who cant see any other way of enjoying show days than dripping vitriol.
I've lapped up comments about being beaten unfairly, in fact my young dog was beaten this weekend by a poorer example ( in my opinion) who was in much better condition and my dog has beaten on numerous occasions..... my lad is a food refuser and is very scrawny and particularily bad at the moment ( bitches in season). The BIS judge was watching the breed judging and told me he would have reversed he placings...I invited him to put his hands on my PROFUSELY coated dog and showed him what he couldn't see from the ring side.." Oh I see" he said.   'nuff sad :-)
I know I should leave him at home but he only needs a couple of JW points and he screams the place down when Mummy leaves him :-(

Tooolz I hope you've taken me the wrong way, I'm not some one who goes in the ring expecting anything, of course I hope(don't we all) but never expect, and I don't blame the judge if we're not placed because I know my dog has a fault and I accept it, I show because I enjoy it, not to win, some people climb rocks for the "rush" I enter the ring for the same reason :)

I honestly never thought'd I'd ever qualify my dog for crufts, and I did at his first show! But this didn't make me think "oh yeah my dog is ace" I was shocked (you should of seen me face, if only there were a camera ha ha) and IMO the dog behind mine should of been infront, and I asked the judge afterwards why?
Maybe I'm too hard on myself & him but I can see the others are much better compared to him, but for my first show dog he's actually alright.
And all the judges I've been under so far I'd happily enter again, even if they did throw us out.

> agree, too much of who the human is on the end of the lead and not the dog, with a lot of judges

I think that to avoid this that all exhibitors should wear this when in the ring. I am absolutely certain that this would avoid all 'human' judging :-D

> I think that to avoid this that all exhibitors should wear [url=http://www.surplusandadventure.com/shopscr3618.html" rel=nofollow]this[/url] when in the ring. I am absolutely certain that this would avoid all 'human' judging :-D

Ha ha I could see alot of people being pee'd on! :-D

Wear mine all the time :-D :-D :-D  (That's a pic of me at Darlington in fact!)

> I think that to avoid this that all exhibitors should wear [url=http://www.surplusandadventure.com/shopscr3618.html" rel=nofollow]this[/url] when in the ring. I am absolutely certain that this would avoid all 'human' judging

(rolls on floor at the thought)

couple of issues though- 1) would they not petrify the dogs?? 2) how does done get up to a proper gait in that? maybe if your showing a toy but could you run with a great dane in it, looks a tad restricting.

> I think that to avoid this that all exhibitors should wear this when in the ring. I am absolutely certain that this would avoid all 'human' judging

ROFL.

Or this....

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/471359/2/istockphoto_471359_woman_with_paper_bag_over_her_head.jpg

  NOooooooo - that's the Judge :-D

Ah see I did think of your option munrogirl76 but people would wear distinctive clothes or jewellry so that wouldn't work!! :-D :-D

My version would be fab for Puli or Komondor exhibitors - you could match your dog!!

> people would wear distinctive clothes or jewellry

Nearly had an asthma attack :-D

What - Jimmy Saville style? :-D

> Could it possibly that judge A, B and C have all bred excellent dogs which is why they are invited to judge in first place :-)  Just a thought.

There's people in my breed who haven't even bred a litter/had the required amount of Stud Book number winners but are handing out CC's.

Sometimes I can predict, but not always. My OH can very often predict though, he says he can just see who the judge is looking at throughout the class. :-)

crinklecut

I presume you are talking about windsor gundog. I was there, I actually judged GSP's. For what it is worth, the GSP is an excellent specimen, the most gorgeous head, near perfect front assembly and movement which put most in the group to shame. He was only 15 months old  but thoroughly deserved BOB and I personally was thrilled that he took RBIS. I actually was surprised with the winner but there you go. the weimaraner went very well and is a good speciman and I actually thought he would win. I also loved the goldie but I think the day had taken its toll on that one and it had given up in the final move.

> I show because I enjoy it, not to win, some people climb rocks for the "rush" I enter the ring for the same reason :-)
>

Good girl ...you'll go far :-)

Nice to see some sense!!
Seriously if the judging is all so bad, why the !!!! does everyone enter still. Maybe if enough bad mouthing of the judges is done no one else will enter so guess who will win?
Yes there are some judges who possibly don't know as much as they think they do, then panic when decisions have to be made. I honestly think the truly dishonest judge are a very small minority and I have been involved for nearly 30 years.
Keep the sense of humour flowing.

Yes, I was referring to Windsor Gundog. I agree the GSP was a nice dog, as was the Weimaraner although I disagree with him being there in the first place as he is a Champion and has won a number of BIS's at open level already but that is another discussion. There were other super dogs there but my initial point was not the quality of the dogs that won but more how easy it is becoming to predict the winners. It would appear that some people only have to turn up to get placed in a group.

This also happens with the stakes classes at champ shows, eg puppy stakes & junior stakes. You see the big names in the ring and know instantly that they will be pulled out - they cannot possibly have the best dogs ALL of the time.

I remember seeing a group at a Champ show not so long ago, the great 'Yogi' ( a magnificent dog by anyones standards) had a dead tail but still took the group. Surely that cannot be right. As wonderful as Yogi is, he should not be able to beat a full group at a Champ show with a dead tail that clearly affected his outline and movement. With my limited knowledge I would say that the judge just did not have the courage to do otherwise. 

> although I disagree with him being there in the first place as he is a Champion and has won a number of BIS's at open level already but that is another discussion.

I don't understand this comment or the reasoning, Open shows are exactly that Open to all.  If people do not want to be faced with competing with Champions they should attend or schedule Limit shows.

As I understand it etiquette requires that people do not enter champions in open shows, though obviously there is no official rule as such.

> I disagree with him being there in the first place as he is a Champion and has won a number of BIS's at open level already but that is another discussion.

Why should champs not be shown at open level?  There's a multiple of valid reasons why they can be :)

(a) open shows are open to all, regardless of wins
(b) judges in training, particularly breed specialists, may never have the opportunity to go over an especially good specimen of their breed before hitting the dizzy heights of CC status
(c) other exhibitors who don't get to (m)any champ shows get the opportunity to not only observe a top specimen but have ther own dogs compete against it - and it's not unknown for ch dogs to be beaten either - their owner/handler/breeder is prepared to take the gamble
(d) For some folks they may only have one dog and it is a champ - why should they be penalised throughout the calendar when there are no champ shows to enter?
(e) It could be a veteran now and not a priority with their owner to go to ch shows because they have younger stock but the dog itself enjoys the whole show-going experience and the owner is proud to let it do so

TBH I could probably go through the alphabet here on perfectly good reasons why champions may be at open shows and then start on numbers LOL - the bottom line is that it's up to their owners whether they wish to enter and bring them, a compliment to the judge to have them and IMO they should be welcomed sportingly by exhibitors regardless of outcome on the day :)

Teri

Strangely it is an absolute no-no in both my breeds and I have never been present when a champion has attended an open show.
(Tell a lie...I did attend one show at Woking where an American Champion Cav got 4th from 6 in OD)
I don't have a champion cavalier yet  :-) but will enter my RCC winning bitch to be beaten ... and she has :-( not often but she has.
but as Teri says... judges get to go over good 'uns.

Me thinks it's the fear of failure that keeps them away.

I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong folks ;) ) that a few breeds don't even continue to exhibit champions at champ shows - EBT springs to mind ....

> Me thinks it's the fear of failure that keeps them away

I can see how that might be the case but I think also it's that some exhibitors are a bit hostile about champions being shown at what they seem to feel is 'their' shows ....

I've both shown against champs (with and without success) at open levels and had the opportunity to judge them at that level too and I certainly appreciate them showing up now and again.  But then as my breed so rarely has separate classification at open shows I guess that's not necessarily representative of a wide ranging view.

Certainly I haven't shown my own ch girl at open level since she gained title but then she's only been at one show since anyway LOL.  I probably wouldn't show her at an open show unless it was a breed judge out to gain experience :)  Other than that I have more pleasant pursuits of a weekend than loitering indefinitely around cramped sports halls for AV classes :-D

In GSPs I have only ever seen one dog who was a Sh Ch being repeatedly entered at opens I attended - can't think of any others, and can't think of any in Flat Coats.

My comments were purely my opinion. Yes I agree Open shows are 'Open to all' but I strongly disagree with champs at open shows. Judges in training should judge to a breed standard, not copy what other judges are doing so I think attending breed seminars is a better way of learning about good dogs. If you judge to the standard and judge honestly, you will know when you get your hands on a good one. We must remember that just because a dog has 3 CC's it need not necessarily mean that it is a good one - the owner could have 3 friends who award tickets.
Also I do not see how entering Champs in champ shows only is restricting their show career. The dog in question was a Weimaraner, there are in excess of 25 shows a year scheduling tickets for Weimars, approx one every two weeks.
I really do believe that these people exhibit at Open shows out of greed and purely to boost their own ego, it rarely has anything to do with allowing the judge or other exhibitors to have the priviledge of viewing their dog.
And no, this is not sour grapes, I have Champions but would not dream of entering them into an Open show.
Just one persons opinion.

I think it's good for judges at Open level to get the opportunity to go over champions. I've never minded competing against champions at open shows - the more the merrier!

Hi crincklecut

> My comments were purely my opinion

Of course they were, just as my reply :)

> Judges in training should judge to a breed standard, not copy what other judges are doing

Every judge should be judging to the breed standard, regardless of experience, but of course every judge has their own interpretation of the finer points - just because a novice judge may reach similar conclusions to an established CC judge doesn't mean they're copying anyone.  There's also no guarantee that the Ch will win :)

> We must remember that just because a dog has 3 CC's it need not necessarily mean that it is a good one - the owner could have 3 friends who award tickets.

I think that's a bit harsh in the main - yes, some dogs which are rather plain to onlookers may go on to win CCs when there appear to be more attractive specimens in the ring but rather than having "3 friends" make them up perhaps such (less obviously worthy) dogs have ticked all the boxes of the Standard for judges who penalise points which they see to be an unwelcomed 'fashion' or trend in a breed.  And of course *friends* within breeds are often the result of both parties having similar taste/lines in the first instance :)

> The dog in question was a Weimaraner, there are in excess of 25 shows a year scheduling tickets for Weimars, approx one every two weeks.

I'll stay away from breed specifics but a plethora of CCs nationwide doesn't mean an owner will seriously campaign a dog - fuel costs are through the roof, entry fees rising and a need accommodation etc are a big consideration for most of us and IMO there's a good chance that many who would do 15/20+ ch shows a year may now decide to cut that down maybe a max of 10, some not even that.

On a more general point and not directed at you, IMO the show scene is undergoing major changes directly due to the shifting of financial priorities for most exhibitors.  I suspect that if societies wish to remain open to all and exhibitors wish to actually have other dogs to compete against we will all have to be more forward thinking, tolerant and better practiced in sportsmanship whichever level or levels we participate at :)

regards, Teri

> I think it's good for judges at Open level to get the opportunity to go over champions

Definitely :)

Yes, it may be helpful for Open Show judges to have Champions enter under them but how many of them have the courage not to put it up purely because of it's title - not many.

If that were the case then judges would need to be well up on all the champion dogs and there handlers to remember them.  I was under the impression that the judge does not see a catalogue until after judging so surely coudn't possibly know every champ dog???

There was an incident recently at one of the open shows i went to and our judge was first judging a different breed - there was some verbal abuse at the judge once he had done his placings as one of the exhibits was a judge herself and she didnt get placed first! she was really pee'd off and didnt exhibit in the next classes that she was entered for. Obviously she felt her dog was the better example of the breed but it didnt go down well at all.

Whilst I do think there is some 'scratching of my back and I'll scratch yours' it doesn't happen all the time and at open shows i would have thought it less likely than the champ shows.

> but how many of them have the courage not to put it up purely because of it's title - not many.

Obviously you are as entitled to your opinion as any of us crinklecut however if you have enjoyed a lengthy and successful career in showing don't you think that airing such cynical views on a public forum (dedicated after all to show dogs, their exhibitors and breeders) sends out a very negative signal to newcomers in our hobby?

I believe that interest, whether renewed or completely novel, has to be encouraged and nurtured :)  It's important that personal prejudices don't put off prospective exhibitors when this pursuit, that most of us enjoy quite thoroughly, has much to offer and is crying out for fresh faces :)

If any of our breeds are to have a future in the ring it is dependent on existing exhibitors, breeders and judges welcoming, mentoring and encouraging a new generation of fans who will carry on this hobby long after we have hung up our show boots and signed our last entry form :)

All of us are capable of becoming jaded, some with and (many more) others without due cause, but IMO this shouldn't spill over to giving the impression that those who win only do so because of who they are or who is judging.  Were that to be the case some of the greatest dogs of our modern era would never have placed in their classes yet can and have gone on to dizzy heights leaving much more famous faces in their wake.

regards Teri