Sorry, I wasn't sure what to title this!

My friend has recently bought a puppy. The breeder is the secretary for the local branch of the breed club.

I saw his papers tonight and although he is KC registered, there is no mention of health testing on the KC papers. However, eye tests for PRA are reccomended for the breed, along with DNA testing and hip scoring.

My friend first rang the breeder when the pup was 8 weeks old and viewed and took home the pup then same day. Another mutual friend (friend B) also bought a puppy from the same breeder, although was told it was bred by a friend who was on holiday, so she was looking after the pup until her friend got back. Friend B again viewed and collected this puppy the same day, aged 11 weeks, without his papers, which she was told would be forwarded when his breeder returned from holiday. Friend B still hasn't recieved papers, 3 weeks later. Apparently, the breeder of the first pup now has another litter.

Both pups had ear mites, and although I understand this isn't that serious, surely the breeder should have noticed and at least told the new owners?

I feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing, to be honest, but am I over-reacting? Is any of this a reason for complaint to the breed club?

Look up the breed club website and see if they list their code of ethics on there -they should do. That will tell you what any members of theirs agree to do when they breed and sell pups. If they have broken this, you can complain to the club.

Thanks, there is this:

Members should be co-operative in any measures aimed at eradicating any hereditary diseases and commit themselves to a positive programme of testing for hereditary defects

Would you say not heath testing constitutes breaking this?

Hm -the way it is worded, it doesn't say they should hip score for instance. I don't know.
My main breed's code of ethics say this which is clearer I think:
Members are recommended only to breed from dogs and bitches of sound temperament that have been BVA/KC hip scored and have a current (within 12 months) BVA/KC clear eye test certificate up to the age of 7 years.

I would try reporting it anyway to the parent club and maybe ask them to clarify what they mean by a positive programme.  If nothing else it might stimulate them to review this particularly in the present climate.

local branch of the breed club.


Do some breed clubs have local branches?

I would try reporting it anyway to the parent club and maybe ask them to clarify what they mean by a positive programme.  If nothing else it might stimulate them to review this particularly in the present climate.

Although I have highlighted your post it isn't directed at you ISabel.

I think Jackson should advise her freinds to do the investigative work and being honest stay out of it.

I personally would be suprised a club secretary being doing anything that isn't inline with the breed guidelines and certainly wouldn't be questioning it either on something that I would see as really not my business.

I would let your freinds look into and if anything appears not right let them sort it out. After all they should have done their homework first.   They obviously bought the pups without asking for Jackson's advise so why expect her to sort anything out now.

Just being honest guys.

Late papers often happens the buyer should stick a note in the post requesting them.

> Do some breed clubs have local branches?

Yes, both of the breeds I have membership do.  One is numerically huge and one is tiny.  I think some local branches do little more than host shows though.  All are boundened  (is that a real word?:-)) to their parent clubs though.

What is the breed if your allowed to say or PM

Never heard of these can you give me an example?

> I would let your freinds look into and if anything not right let them sort it out.   They obviously bought the pups without asking for Jacksons advise so why expect her to sort anything out now.
>

I don't think anyone is if she doesn't want to.  They are just suggesting a course of action if the friend or Jackson wishes to take it.

I personally would strongly advise against naming the breed on here libel ( can't believe I just spelt that wrong)  applies to the internet also.   If I was the person in question I would not be happy at all.

> Do some breed clubs have local branches?

Usually there is the 'parent' breed club, and regional breed clubs, but these are independent clubs in their own right, not branches of the parent one.

> Never heard of these can you give me an example?

If you look to the bottom of the breed standard of cockers you will see loads of regional breed clubs listed.  Click on any other standards and you will find many more.

> not branches of the parent one.

No, but I think they are all obliged to have the same code of ethics and be represented by the parent club within the KC for instance, aren't they?

Sorry , Yes I understand there are regional breed clubs but I didn't think any bigger club had control over them.  Each club is registered and run individually are they not?

Perhaps I have misunderstood the use of terminology , as I have still not seen "one" breed club with "local" branches.

We have in my breed a
----club ( first club registered)

----club of england
---- club of NI,
Southern---- club
----club of Wales

These are all independant clubs though.

I think that is just terminology :-) but my understanding was they all had a Parent club.

No, but I think they are all obliged to have the same code of ethics and be represented by the parent club within the KC for instance, aren't they? Nope , I think that is actually prohibited by the Kennel club if I am mistaken. They can advise and consult but as far as I am away none have power or control over any of the others.  that is 100% for sure in my breed.

I think that is just terminology  but my understanding was they all had a Parent club.

I meant when I said terminology , that the terminology used in Jackson's first post was incorrect.

Our clubs are not governed at all or lead by a parent club. They may consult and share ideas and suggestions but each and 100% independant of each other.

Anyway I think my question is probably answered there are not " local branches" of a club it is probably the secretary of the actual regional club not branch.

Then the fault is mine not Jacksons but I think we all understood what they mean by local club so there wasn't any need to pick over her terminology really.

I still think it would be worth complaining to the parents club is they wish to as he may well be a member.

Thanks all. I am not prepared to mention the breed as that may make the breeder obvious or fairly obvious at least.

I simply told my friend I would make an enquiry on here as she had previously told me the pup had health tested parents, but when I had a look at his KC papers, the health screening isn't on them. She didn't speak to me prior to getting the pup, but did know the breeder was the secretary of the club and when she told me after already getting the pup, I told her she probably couldn't go far wrong then.

Obviously it is up to them whether they wish to take things further, as I said, I simply offered to make the enquiry on here on her behalf, as I felt not health testing wasn't acceptable personally.

Then the fault is mine not Jacksons but I think we all understood what they mean by local club so there wasn't any need to pick over her terminology really

I wasn't picking over her terminology at all I was merely asking if there was such a thing as I have never heard of it, as the posts went down it clicked to me that it "may" have been the terminology. An easy mistake, it wasn't a criticism of Jackson at all.  

but I think we all understood what they mean by local club

Clearly not Isabel or the thread that followed wouldn't have continued.  I was genuinely questioning if there was such a thing as a branch off a club, and it appears not on further reading, you clearly now know that all clubs are not governed by the parent club so we have all learned something no? :-) 

Hi Jackson, I completely understand your position hence my comments of caution.. :-).

It doesn't appear you have taken my post as criticism but just wanted to say it genuinely wasn't, just cautionary :-)

I still think it would be worth complaining to the parents club is they wish to as he may well be a member.

Isabel, that is my point in the Jackson's post it clearly says it's the secretary!!!!!!! hence all my questions :-D

> Isabel, that is my point in the Jackson's post it clearly says it's the secretary!!!!!!! hence all my questions :-D

Now I am totally confused. Where have we concluded he is secretary of the parent club? Oh never mind :-)

Jackson opening post says

My friend has recently bought a puppy. The breeder is the secretary for the local branch of the breed club.

So the person must be the secretary of one of the breed clubs.

LOL :-D oh dear back to bed for the pair of us..

>They can advise and consult but as far as I am away none have power or control over any of the others.  that is 100% for sure in my breed.

Mine too. The regional clubs are totally independent of the national (parent) one.

> So the person must be the secretary of one of the breed clubs.
>

But not necessary the parent club of which it is quite likely to be a member as we have concluded the terminology could have been wrong and the regional club was meant. 

Hi Isabel I see what you mean , you were using the word " parent"  not just breed club..    It is obvious from what we have established Parent clubs ( whatever that actually means, as far as I am aware it just means the first registered with the title) are not higher up the rank than other clubs. This defiantely being the case in my breed.  The first club registered in my breed probably has the 2nd/3rd smallest membership In a lot of cases. The  secretary of any breed club will have equal status and I would imagine conduct themselves in equal fashion to any others. 

Anyway contacting any club about a secretary of another in my opinion is the last thing I would advise any newbie to the dog world never mind long established person UNLESS full investigation has been carried out and that there is some merit even to question this person.

You are right though the owner could contact another breed club and seek clarification on the breeder/member guidelines.

Not something I would be getting myself involved it , certainly as the OP isn't even the buyer of the puppy.

As I understand it the health testing is "recommended" good practice but cannot be enforced. Maybe some breed clubs are different?

i am confused as well (although thats nothing new for me), but do you mean that the parents have not had health checks done or do you mean the puppy ,as most tests need the puppy to be of a certain age before they can be tested for certain things

I mean the parents haven't had health tests done, or if they have there is no evidence of it on the puppy's paers. (parents health results are listed on the puppy's KC documents usually)

The quote from the Code of Ethics suggests which breed this is & yes it's one with a large number of regional Clubs as well as the national, parent Club. The regional Clubs are all members of this breed's Breed Council which has it's own Code of Ethics which is similar but not identical to the parent Club Code of Ethics eg the clause about committing to a positive programme of testing for hereditary defects does not appear in the Breed Council Code of Ethics. However most members and officers of the regional clubs would generally be members of the parent Club (not all though) so as others have said, the parent Club would be the best place to ask for further advice, if necessary.

> parents health results are listed on the puppy's KC documents usually

Not always. For example, if a breed club 'recommends' eye-testing, but the breed isn't actually on the BVA schedule as having known problems, the results aren't recorded at the KC, even if they have been carried out.

Evelyn is correct in her post, I cannot speak for all breed clubs, but the one I belong to will recommend testing but will not make it a rule. Also, they will not get involved if for example, a breeder has hips scored, they are well above average, and they still go ahead and use the dog in their breeding program, or, in the case of males - offer them out to stud.

i can't help mentioning and find this hard to understand why would a responsible breeder also let a complete stranger take a puppy straight home the same day.  Surely they should after 'interviewing' prospective new owners ask them to come back & visit again before leaving with the pup.  As far as I know and definetley with the breed that I am into that if there are any Optigen Tests they are definetley shown on the KC Reg along with BVA eye tests.

>there is no mention of health testing on the KC papers

In my breed we also do health tests, but they don't show up on the KC papers ;)  We tend to show buyers the certificates so that they can assure themselves of the results.  DNA testing for CT doesn't even show up on the KC DNA test schemes yet!  probably because it is still a work in progress, with breed clubs and breeders still working with the KC and AHT to establish a definitive test/s.

Is it possible that this is the situation in the unmentioned breed?

I thought that too Wendy. Seems a bit odd especially for a "responsible breeder"

If the pups was of leaving age and the owners lived a long way away would seem a bit unfair to make them wait if they came up fine in the interview????

Would a responsible breeder not start "interviewing" potential new owners before the pups were of leaving age?

Even responsible breeders have the odd pup not spoken for due to imbalance of sexes, large litter, cancellations etc.  I certainly have on occasion had a pup ready to leave, so had to make up my mind quickly from contact made and the first meeting.

Most of my most recent litter were booked before birth, but not all.

Totally understand that brainless, but combined with the fact there were no papers (?!) it doesnt sound like an ideal situation nor an ideal breeder. Turns out suspicions were right as pup was later found to have ear mites and papers have not been forwarded on.

I am leaving it to my friends if they wish to to do anything. Their puppies, after all. The tests would show on the KC papers, I understand. At the end of the day, some of the responsibility does lie with my friends, as they should have checked these things first.

I personally wouldn't let a puppy go the first time I met someone, regardless of their age. I have thought about what I woudl do and I think I'd liek them to have a 'cooling off' period for a week or so to think about it, or at least a few days. However, I appreciate I am new ot all this and maybe still have a somewhat idealistic approach, although I hope I never lose that personally.

Friend B has checked with the KC as her pup is now 15 weeks. The litter has been registered, albeit very recently. However, friend B is leaving pup alone at home for long periods, the first time for over 6 hours the day after she got it, to go shopping! I have tried dropping strong hints and lending books, but to no avail so far, sadly. Pup is shut in crate for that time, so there is no damage or mess being done to the house, sadly, as that might make them realise. I have offered to have pup if they need me to, but they never take me up on the offer. :-(

Would a responsible breeder not start "interviewing" potential new owners before the pups were of leaving age?   Not not always.

I don't do any interviewing before 6 weeks as my breed only has a few pups and when they are born up till 5-6 weeks they are all " maybe"  to me.

A good experiences breeder can work people out very quickly and easily.  If a person is travelling from a far whilst the person is in the house you can check their references. One of my checks is generally their vet if they have owned a animal previously. I often have people over once and they take the puppy to them and do a quick home check if all is well I leave the puppy.

It is silly to put a breeding into or out with the " responsible breeder" catagory because they don't do as some people think they should..  IMHO of course :-D

Totally understand that brainless, but combined with the fact there were no papers (?!) it doesnt sound like an ideal situation nor an ideal breeder. Turns out suspicions were right as pup was later found to have ear mites and papers have not been forwarded on.

Again this is and can be all speculation. It may all be perfectly sorted in the end. Ear mites don't make people a bad breeder, some breeds are prone to have them.  My sisters dog had them when she took her puppy to the vet it came from a very repuatable breeder. 

I now don't register my own pups till the last min as I like name themes for my show pups so I want to make sure what I am keeping.  They are often not registered till 8 weeks.  My first couple litters were registered at a week but we all changed our methods with experience.   However most people provide receipts.

I know a lady who bought a show pup from one of the top breeders in her breed waited 3 months on papers just because the breeder was making their mind up , papers did follow.

Life is sometimes a bit more complicated.

Hi Jackson, sadly it seems you care a lot more about your friends' puppy then they do!  please don't take this the wrong way as I am a huge dog lover and mine get treated better than my hubbie!!  It does seem that the breeder didn't mind who had their pups just as long as they could sell them as quick as poss.  If I ever knew that someone who had one of mine left them for all that time and the day after getting them I would never forgive myself.

I realise a dog having ear mites doesnt make a bad breeder thats why i said combined with the fact.....
The OP says dog was 11 weeks when picked up without papers which is nearly 3 months old!!!

When you are a bit longer in a breed Jackson people often have genuine buyers waiting huge lengths of time. Some of the big kennels with have people waiting years. 

I occasionally if I have an enquirer who is not too far and is happy to wait on a puppy even if it means as long as a year away, I sometimes ask them to come by and meet me and see how I keep my dogs and they type of person I am. Their interation is often all I need to measure their suitability.

By seeing a person once or twice doesnt' at the end of the day guarantee anything.  I notice none of you mention home checks.  So if a person comes to see you 2 or 3 times and you like them they tick all the boxes, what if their home doesn't suit the puppy. It does happen.

I am not in anyway criticising anyones vetting methods but defending the right for people especially expereinced breeders to have and work with the methods that suit them.

I think this freind show the buyer to be worse all round that the breeder.

If someone can point black say these tests that " should " have been done have not and then the papers have been refused fair  enough but something doesn't ring right to me with this thread.

I realise a dog having ear mites doesnt make a bad breeder thats why i said combined with the fact.....
The OP says dog was 11 weeks when picked up without papers which is nearly 3 months old!!!

Right so having ear mites and no papers makes the breeder a bad breeder?  there may be a whole bigger issue to this story. 

Perhaps it is something simple like the breeder forget to endorse them and now has to wait till the endorsements are place on the dogs before sending the papers out. Perhaps it was being run on and only at the last min the breeder decided it wasn't good enough.  

Who knows but I am suprise how judgemental people can be over something that could be easily explained.

For the record I wait on papers and ALL my puppies are 100% vet checked before leaving my house BUT that doesn't mean I would automatically assume a breeder is a bad breeder by doing things differently from myself.

A lot of show breeders and working hards, running on pups, showing , trimming , at training classes etc etc they lead they most busiest of busy lifes.  Believe me I can't leave the house without my diary which has my " do today" list in it.