> we could hardly expect them to carry on at Crufts after their chief vet criticised pedigree dogs including those and especially those, entered in dog shows, in front of the nation

I see your point Spender but personally I'd like to see the RCVS taking that vet to task for making such an outrageous, inaccurate generalisation - it was not only wholly conjecture but entirely unprofessional for him to do so.

> They want health, genetic diversity, and welfare to be put before the modern interpretation of appearance What's wrong with that?

Nothing, if they were specialist in that area but they're not - they specialise in preventing (after a fashion and too often with a TV crew following them around)blatant cruelty and neglect and not in breeding, genetics, conformation and analysation of pedigrees never mind having the background knowledge of what any lines may or may not have of value or flaw :)

>Surely every responsible breeder would want to breed sound healthy animals...

yes, we would hope so, but we are in danger of letting the RSPCA, DEFRA and the Government dictate how best to achieve that - how can that possibly be for the greater good to pedigree breeding as a whole, across all breeds????  If I want my car repaired I don't go to a petrol station, but a garage.  Likewise if I need a new fan belt I go to a garage and not a petrol station.  The KC, BVA, RCVS and RSPCA  should be working closely together with a way forward but and it's an important BUT, responsible pedigree dog breeders should be factored into these deliberations also.  Let's hope that DEFRA for eg never gets close to having a say in breeding

I'm sure the KC do want the same but maybe the RSPCA feel they are not doing enough and it's now hit a deadlock situation?...very difficult to surmise as it's unlikely we will get to the full true story, especially from the tabloids. 

>The RSPCA are really aimed to exclude all notion of beauty.

I haven't seen or heard today's broadcast but is this really that problematic?  Most breeds were bred to work, to do the job they were bred for; what beauty got to do with it?  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and interpretation changes every 30 years or so.  Why should beauty even be a considered factor in dog breeding?  Enlighten me please...

> what beauty got to do with it? 

Because we like to surround ourselves with things that please our eye.  Many breeds were bred to work but many more were never anything but companions and even amongst the workers there has been a long tradition of trying to please the eye also. So why not consider it as a factor when breeding as long as it is not detrimental to the dogs health?

Basically the RSPCA and various other agencies consider the showing of dogs to be 'Beauty shows'  as do the general public.  It's hardly surprising when you see the presentation of some of the dogs ;) 

The main aim of dog showing is to compare the dogs to the breed standard, thus ensuring that each breed retains it's unique identity.  There are also breeders who show dogs and work them to ensure that at least some of the breed retains it's working abilities.

I'm sure there are others here who could put this much more eloquently ;)

forgot to add - In my breed (way back in the mists of time ;) ) it was found that dogs with a particular set of characteristics were much better workers, so they were selected to perpetuate those characteristics ;)  Lurcher breeders still like to add in the Bedlington to enhance the working ability of their dogs, and it's usually possible to tell if a 1st cross has Bedlington in it just by looking at it ;)

I think that crufts or any dog show being a "beauty show" is valid to a point - but simply because by definition if we are drawn to a breed, however ugly or plain it may seem to someone else!, and we own, breed or judge a typical example of that breed then to me that makes it beautiful to the breed's enthusiasts :)

For eg, someone not liking short/flat noses, deep stops, short legs, hanging ears, short coats, spitz like tails ..... lots of things may well not find any dog with one or more of those features remotely attractive let alone beautiful HOWEVER I would expect that anyone drawn to any breed with some or more of the above would like them and see them as 'beautiful' in their own way :)

Someone breeding a dog for a job of work could look upon that dog when working perfectly and admire it for it's beauty - because to the owner's eye that dog is fulfilling it's job and he finds it beautiful to watch it do so :)

regards, Teri

But is this not the problem thou, Isabel, that some are taking pleasing to the eye, (mostly to please the judge's eye and the modern interpretation of the breed standard), to the extremes and health is way down the list? 

There are many breeders who have left the show scene in our breed because they will not breed to the 'modern interpretation' of the breed standard to get the dogs that win at shows because they feel it is detrimental to the breed's health and quite honestly I agree.

> But is this not the problem thou, Isabel, that some are taking pleasing to the eye, (mostly to please the judge's eye and the modern interpretation of the breed standard), to the extremes and health is way down the list? 
>

Yes, definately, but the KC have acknowledged the problems but have also, already, before the programme, taken steps to change those attitudes that persist in some breeds so I can't see why the RSPCA could not see a way to work towards their common aims with them.

The RSPCA hold dog shows themselves though.. although these are not pedigree shows, will they be ensuring that all dogs entering and competing will be healthy and fit?

That may seem like me being pedantic, and to a certain extent thats probably true, but having attended a fair few RSPCA dog shows, I have seen without a shadow of a doubt FAR more evidently ill, unhealthy, unfit dogs, being badly treated through ignorance and intentionally, at these shows than i EVER have at crufts, or at any other KC show.

I have never disagreed that the KC needs to get off its bum and do something, but the RSPCA are certainly no angels either - has anyone on here ever seen an RSPCA inspector at a charity show go and actually prevent any ongoing cruelty .. because i never have, and ive seen dogs dragged around in the heat, puppies being yanked off their feet on choke chains and yelled at and kicked and slapped by kids and adults alike. Not once have I seen an RSPCA officer, at one of their OWN shows, go and have a quiet word, never mind stronger action.

So are they actually going to do something useful? So far the message that appears to have reached the less 'dog nuts' sector of society appears to be 'KC registration means a dog is unhealthy, so NON registered dogs must be healthier'... i have now had this concept quoted to me more times than i can count on my estate, with people using the fact that their staffordshire bull terrier type or collie x type or whatever... are NOT KC reg and thus healthier and thus... more expensive. THe price of the council estate x bred pup has gone UP by about £50  on the strength of this and people ARE paying it.

The irony is, none of these backyard breeders will travel more than a couple of miles for a stud dog (most stud dogs bring themselves, unaccompanied, as and when the urge takes them) and none of the pups will go more htan a couple of miles out of the area either... making the genepool of these 'healthier' crossbreeds smaller than that of the pedigrees.

But the RSPCA never said breeding your neighbours crossbreed to your friends bitch could have horrible health problems (they say you should neuter so dogs dont end up in rescues but THATS never going to happen and anyway its not your problem once hte money is in your pocket...)... and so it goes on.

Caroline Kisko is the KC Secretary - an executive post. IMHO the KC should definitely have a properly trained PR spokesman. You don't see the Company Secretary of Tesco's or Marks and Spencer engaging in verbal fisticuffs with their companies' critics, and the KC should be the same.

I agree, i won't miss the RSPCA, AT CRUFTS OR ANY WHERE.
I find them total unhelp full, when dealing with animals that have been abused they don't want to know.
We picked up a dog that had been burht with cigs we stopped counting after 30 burn's guess what they didn't want to know, as we where helping with a breed rescue that a member of the public had found starving and running free.

A friend found a tiny puppy tied to a tree on the 5th of november, she was so scared, my friend could not get near her, she phoned them for help they could not come out, she was told to leave her and go back next moening to see if she had calmed down enough to untangle her and let her go.
My friend stayed with this pup, for hour's gainning her confidence then untied her and took her home, she phoned them again and they still did not want to know.

So i won't miss them in any way, i don't support them in any way now.

> A friend found a tiny puppy tied to a tree on the 5th of november, she was so scared, my friend could not get near her

I think they might have thought that a hoax!  Why on earth could she not get near a tiny puppy?
The RSPCA are not like the police or ambulance service they have about 300 odd inspectors covering the whole of Britain.  I can just imagine how occupied they would be on the 5th November.
Why did she phone them again once the puppy was rescued?

The RSPCA withdraws from CRUFTS.

My first response is that it is a cowardly act from them. To disassociate themselves from Crufts is saying to the public that they do not agree with much that goes on.

However, on the flip side, it also shows that they are not needed as if there were problems at the shows it would be their duty to make sure everything was being run properly and that dogs were fine and dandy, (they have never been there as ethics to breed standards) obviously the Shows have always just been used as an advertisement for themselves.

I somehow have a feeling that they will be back, yes, there has been a few bruises from the programme, but CRUFTS will continue and be back bigger and better than ever, the RSPCA will want to be a part of that in the future, watch them return with their tales firmly between their legs. :-)

> the RSPCA will want to be a part of that in the future, watch them return with their tales firmly between their legs.

They said on the Radio yesterday they are going to be announcing something next year, just in time for Crufts as Caroline pointed out, so no tails between legs yet :-(

Ha my OH shouldnt be bred with lol, he is severly short sighted, stiff joints, bad knees, arthirtus, 2 blood conditions Thrombophilia being one, undesecended testicles operated on when he was a babe, and another problem down there which is to be operated on soonish lol!!! Ive often thought what our kids would be like, luckily im reasonably healthy

Louise

God he sounds worse than mine.  He had severe asthama and eczema so bad he had to go into hospital and is as blind as a bat.  Nobody in his family had these conditions and none of our kids have! All peculiar really. :)

> Caroline Kisko is the KC Secretary - an executive post.

I see. Well if they are going to appoint professional PR they should get a move on to get the press more enlightened on what they have achieved and are planning to achieve before Crufts as I suspect the RSPCA will capitalise on the usual media sneering if they are planning on making a move on the control of breeding in this country and this is what the announcement will be regarding.

His dad has bad joints and one of the blood things his grandad died from it eeeeek, only one of 50 people to have died from it really. his sister has one of the blood conditions and bad knees too. I dont even wear glasses so i hope our poor little Tristan (we have names, dont even plan on having him for a few years) doesnt live in a bubble LOL

It wasn't long ago that the KC kicked the RSPCA out of Crufts after their infamous pile of dead dogs campaign-Good riddance to bad rubbish IMHO

Also Beverley Cuddy has a very short memory she now supports the RSPCA against the KC yet not that long ago she was anti the RSPCA

Perhaps Beverley Cuddy has a better grasp of diplomacy.  When your enemy is strong you hug them closer than your friends.

"From a dog health and welfare perspective, such shows are fundamentally flawed and do our much-loved pedigree dogs no favours

I had to laugh when I read this on the linked article, so now they see the show and dogs as flawed do they? Shame they werent saying that last Crufts or the crufts before, or the one before that when they were raking in the money for their 'causes'.

Good Riddence in my eyes as compared to the Blue Cross I dont really see them as a charity, the blue cross never put a healthy dog down why cant they do the same?
Oh well.

I think BC simply likes to be confrontational and doesn't much care which side of the coin flips as she's just a professional antagonist IMO.  Quite happy to rip into the pedigree show world for eg while equally happy to participate in it  ...... odd woman

I for one will miss the RSPCA not one jot!
Three inspectors once wasted three days trying to capture a terapin living in a moat (Round a gatehouse belonging to a famous person) My Mum and Stepdad were estate manager/housekeeper for this family, the terapin, as so many, had been purchased for the child and released into the moat when said child grew out of it!!! (before Mums time as housekeeper) It had lived happily in the moat for 20 years and was the size of a dinnerplate. It used to sun itself on the banks and shoot into the water if you got too close. The RSPCA got to hear of it and declared it cruel to let it continue living "In the wild!!" They never did catch it (probably scared the witts out of it chasing around with a net!) and it still resides there to this day 25 years after it's release...and it's as happy as larry.....well it seems to be anyway...won't let anyone get close enough to ask it! What a waste of time and money on the RSPCA's part!
However I feel the RSPCA are shooting themseves in the foot, if they believe dog shows are the cause of such bad breeding (I withold judgment on that! I think some breeders need to closley look at what they are creating in some breeds) then surely the one place where they could have access to try and change breeders minds would be the place they congregate in huge numbers ie. dog shows? they should put thier money were there mouths are and campagn at dog shows to try and explain to those breeders with huge health problems within their breed,  on how to take avoiding action to improve thier breeds. By pulling out they are just washing their hands of it in my mind. For an organisation who are supposidly vowed to improve the lot of animals they need to be working in the middle of the problem...not avoiding it!
Aileen

I dont believe that the RSPCA won't be at Crufts, they will have inspectors there as they had this year. It is just the stand promoting their "work" and raising more funds that will be missing. They will be checking that all docked dogs being show have been legally docked they will be checking to see if they can find anything to suggest the welfare of the dogs there is being compromised.I also feel sure if there is the slightest thing it will be reported in the tabloids as the shame of Crufts once more.

> Perhaps Beverley Cuddy has a better grasp of diplomacy.  When your enemy is strong you hug them closer than your friends.

It's the Lyndon Johnson maxim. :-D

I was hoping you would imagine I had invented it :-D

> I also feel sure if there is the slightest thing it will be reported in the tabloids as the shame of Crufts once more.

Got it in one :( :( :(  I would love to believe that a positive spin could be put on things now, particularly pre-Crufts, but realistically I think there will be a huge campaign by all the usual suspects and now joined by the RSPCA to make those of us who love competing with our dogs in a multitude of disciplines look like greedy, selfish, uncaring and loathesome fools

Teri

Strays have never been the RSPCA's remit
But they have taken them for a good many years, even though they did pts after 7 days.

I do think rather than turning against dog breeding they could do more if they put out information of different breeds, what health tests are necessary and what the results mean, what to ask of breeders etc. Educating people, looking for the good in pedigree dogs rather than dismissing all of them. As a group independant of the KC, rather than one that has a vested interest in them. People do listen to the RSPCA, so if they wanted they could do far more for the general public who support and keep them going and help people to avoid buying puppies that either are suspect of having problems, or those that are poorly bred and raised and will give much heartache to their owners as time goes by. If all the dog charities worked together things could be so much better for the general public they are trying to protect by educating them, not simply sending them off to the puppy farmers and cross breeders.

Press Release: Kennel Club to Lodge a Complaint to OFFCOM Regarding BBC Programme

KENNEL CLUB TO LODGE A COMPLAINT TO OFCOM REGARDING BBC PROGRAMME AND REVIEWS ITS BBC CONTRACT

The Kennel Club is lodging a complaint to Ofcom in respect of the recently broadcast programme 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed' (BBC1) in view of its unfair treatment and editing and failure to fairly and properly reflect the Kennel Club's deep commitment to the health and welfare of dogs and responsible dog ownership despite being made aware in detail of those efforts in advance of broadcast. Further, in the light of this programme, the Kennel Club is reviewing its contract with the BBC.

ENDS
16th September 2008

LINK

> if they put out information of different breeds, what health tests are necessary and what the results mean, what to ask of breeders etc.

They could do that very simply by pointing people to the KC website, all that information is there.  As you say RSPCA has influence and so does the KC so what a shame they cannot work together in this same aim.

> the Kennel Club is reviewing its contract with the BBC.

Is the contract referred to, the license to televise Crufts?

> They want health, genetic diversity, and welfare to be put before the modern interpretation of appearance.  What's wrong with that?  Surely every responsible breeder would want to breed sound healthy animals...

every responsible breeder does and do you think the ones who don't are having this discussion? i doubt very much they give a damn

I'm not aware of any other contract the KC has with the BBC apart from Crufts.  However the wording of the press release is exact (hence why I included the link) so anything else is just speculation :)

regards, Teri

> I'd like to see the RCVS taking that vet to task for making such an outrageous, inaccurate generalisation - it was not only wholly conjecture but entirely unprofessional for him to do so

indeed.

> they specialise in preventing (after a fashion and too often with a TV crew following them around)blatant cruelty and neglect

lol, come now teri, thats a bit of fib :) they are supposed to specialise in that area...

> I feel the RSPCA are shooting themseves in the foot, if they believe dog shows are the cause of such bad breeding (I withold judgment on that! I think some breeders need to closley look at what they are creating in some breeds) then surely the one place where they could have access to try and change breeders minds would be the place they congregate in huge numbers ie. dog shows? they should put thier money were there mouths are and campagn at dog shows to try and explain to those breeders with huge health problems within their breed,  on how to take avoiding action to improve thier breeds. By pulling out they are just washing their hands of it in my mind

couldn't agree more. how is this helping anything except get them more publicity

I know they are supposed to specialise in that area :-D but I also know that it aint that easy to get them out and when they do they have very limited powers anyway.  Just because an animal has access to a water bowl and can crawl under a shed doesn't mean it's not being neglected TO ME however the RSPCA have been known to think otherwise and consequently not act on cases reported to them :(

TBH they're all mouth and trousers - not entirely all their own fault as they need the back up of the laws of the land to make some changes after all.  Funny to me how they can be televised rescuing birds and cats caught in every day situations but try and find an officer when you want one (probably all in make-up at Elmstree of course ;) )

I personally think that Mark Evans is on a career promoting ladder and is honestly a waste of space.  How can we take a person who is driven to be a TV celeb serious now. That's my opinion anyway. I think somethings in the show were appaling and need addressing without any doubt but what he is doing is detrimental.  We will have every Tom Dick and Harry breeding crosses now.

Mrs Kisko said the club's charitable trust invested heavily in developing health screening for dogs and had recently donated £48,000 to the RSPCA.

I wonder if the donations will stop :-)

> because an animal has access to a water bowl and can crawl under a shed doesn't mean it's not being neglected TO ME however the RSPCA have been known to think

They can only work within the law though, Teri, and this is all that the law allows for.

> I wonder if the donations will stop

In their statements they seem to be implying not, in the interest of continuing to support work that benefits dogs which, in the circumstances, is pretty good of them :-)

Yours was the polite version Isabel. :-D

I dont believe that the RSPCA won't be at Crufts, they will have inspectors there as they had this year. It is just the stand promoting their "work" and raising more funds that will be missing. They will be checking that all docked dogs being show have been legally docked

Amazing isn't it...... apparently only 300 Inspectors to cover the whole country...... We hear all the time that there are never enough of them to deal with everything thrown at them, but they will make sure they are checking docked tails at Crufts !!!

I for one won't miss their attendance if they don't turn up..... I would rather carry on giving my time and money to my breed rescue instead of supporting a charity whose main aim is who has the plushest carpet and biggest desk in the office !!!

Gabrielle

MMMMM serious cruelty issues which they need such massive contributions from the public for as stated in the new advertising campaign will be put on hold though Julie.

Its a shame that the RSCPA & The KC can't iron out their differences and work together. Both have had bad press recently and in the past, they should use all this negativity and do something productive.

There are more issues out there besides bad breeding and cruelty.  Both are powerful organisations, they could make a difference.

The Dogs Trust has pulled out as well now.
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/pressreleases/2008/dogs-trust-withdraws.htm

Just read that too Marianne :( 

Does anyone know if this actually 'hurts' Crufts? I would guess that they could sell any exhibition space they have many times over, and I can't imagine any visitors actually make the journey to see these organisations?

M.

4.      Purchasers of dogs should first consider a rescue dog. If it is a pedigree, they must understand the importance of determining and questioning its genetic heritage.  


Now that's a cracker   No fear now, Joe P, you can go out and but yourself any kindle of 'oodle' /  'ocker' / 'chon' et al with confidence but beware of any of those dodgy recognised breeds - all 200+ of them  .................. a disgrace

LOL Gillian :-)
I wouldn't expect anything else from them !!

As long as they have their priorities where they should be... we needn't worry, right ??

Gabrielle

Hi Lily Mc

I don't think it will hurt Crufts at all - however I do think it will hurt those of us who breed, show and judge :(  The documentary was bad enough getting the man on the street talking derisively about 'our world' but to now have such hefty back up as the RSPCA and Dogs Trust behind it I can't see how anyone without in depth knowledge of breeding, judging and exhibiting healthy, tested, typical animals wont take the contents and statements made in that show as being Gospel

I had a bad feeling that things would go this way as soon as I watched the documentary - based on nothing more than the cringe worthy comments (albeit they were perhaps heavily edited) of Ronnie Irving and Jeff Samson :(

IMO the bottom line is the KC should have acted sooner - FIRSTLY to prevent those breeds with serious health and physical conformation problems being allowed to get into the state they now are and SECONDLY when they first got wind of this documentary being in the pipe line.

The KC in my opinion has let us all down - they've been very publicly doing a take the money and run routine for decades yet would have us believe they have been privately beavering away to make radical changes for the benefit of pedigree dogs.   Far too little and far too late it now seems :(  

With over 200 recognised breeds and a tiny minority portrayed this need never have happened - it was badly handled from the get go and mealy mouthed b/s on their website isn't going to put right the wrongs that were watched by countless households across the country. 

Yes it is and you should all know the Dogs trust s pulled out of Crufts too. Apparently their members and supporters voted for it.

Does anyone know if this actually 'hurts' Crufts? I would guess that they could sell any exhibition space they have many times over, and I can't imagine any visitors actually make the journey to see these organisations?

Just to add to Teri's excellent reply -the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust will almost certainly lose out themselves! Where else are they going to com across so many dog lovers in one place over 4 days, and be able to receive donations, sell goods etc?