Hi,

My sister has just got a new puppy - 10 weeks old.  The breeder vaccinated at 8 weeks and again at 10 ten weeks.  He went to the vet today for a check over and to get micro-chipped.  The vet said that he should have another vaccination at 12 weeks because studies have shown that puppies vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks do not have as good an immune system.

What are your thoughts on this - should my sister get him done again at 12 weeks or is this unnecessary?

Thanks.

can't see any reason why this puppy should have yet another vacc, I certainly wouldn't allow it, and wouldn't for one minute think it necessary. I would be more worried about possible reactions to more vaccine compromising the immune system, rather than helping it.

I completely agree with calmstorm - three vaccinations in as many months is excessive and, in my view, totally unnecessary.

I would agree that a third vaccination should not be given, but also agree with the Vet that inoculating later the vaccinations are more likely to take and prefer to have my won pups done at 10 and 12 weeks.  Thast said the new vaccines are supposed to be able to overcome maternal immunity better than previously hence why they are given earleir to help facilitate socialisation which the lack of results in more canine deaths or problems than the risk of the diseases.

Thanks for your replies.  My sister says she feels better now and has obviously decided not to let him have the 3rd vaccination.  Thanks again x

still on vaccinations have any of you heard of the advice that annual vaccines are really ott and can/should be done less often. I have been told just once is sufficient if you vaccinate at all.

The manufacturer's protocols for some vaccines now suggest 3 yearly for certain parts. If you do a search it has been discussed before

still on vaccinations have any of you heard of the advice that annual vaccines are really ott and can/should be done less often. I have been told just once is sufficient if you vaccinate at all.

I have heard that too.  Someone was discussing it with me at a show and they said in some countries they dont do jabs every year but every 2 - 3 years!! (not sure if it is true)
I can see why they think it is ott as we have injections for things like TB, menigitis, etc and that isnt done every year.  Some are only ever done once.

Until they come up with a conclusive study I will stick to the yearly boosters as I wouldnt want to risk it with all the showing I do, but I would love it if they turned round tomorrow and said once every 3 years from now on.  That would seriously save me a fortune.

Also,
I agree dont do the third jab two are fine at those ages, vet trying to line the pockets again me thinks.  Imagine the overload on the poor puppies system!

Emma

> Someone was discussing it with me at a show and they said in some countries they dont do jabs every year but every 2 - 3 years!!

Different vaccine brands have different protocols. The leptospirosis and parainfluenza are annual, but the other parts some vaccine manufacturers only require giving every 2,3 or 4 years according to the manufacturers data. Personally I will not do full yearly - I make sure they get a vaccine where the distemper hepatitis and parvo only needs doing every three years (in this country), and have the lepto annually. Other people titre test etc - there are oodles of posts on here - I am sure the Google sitesearch at the bottom of the page will come up with plenty. :-)

The leptospirosis and parainfluenza are annual, but the other parts some vaccine manufacturers only require giving every 2,3 or 4 years according to the manufacturers data.

You know all the years I have been in dogs I have never really looked into this.  But I am definately going to now as I think but will have to check the records that they are getting all each year.
Dont want to jab them with extras they dont need.

Emma

I do not vaccinate until after 12 weeks of age,when the mum's immunity has worn off.  This vaccine is then only required once, not twice as the vaccine is much more effective as there is no maternal immunity. Personally, I then titre test to check my dogs levels before giving any boosters.  I certainly never vaccinate if my dogs are not in tip top condition or are going through any stress as this can affect the immune system and you are then asking for a reaction to the vaccine.  I would mention that my dogs are given homeopathic nosodes also.

>This vaccine is then only required once, not twice as the vaccine is much more effective as there is no maternal immunity.

The lepto still needs two doses.

I have never heard of only being able to have one vaccine.  I wouldn't leave my breed until 12 weeks anyway as that's way to long.

Do mine at 8 and 10 weeks have done so for many, many years.

But if they have their mum's immunity, why do you you think it is too long to wait?  They are covered anyway so why vaccinate at 8 weeks?  I can understand people vaccinating at 10 weeks (as maternal immunity may have started to wane by then) but not 8.  I have heard of several vets nowadays who only recommend one lot of vaccines if the pups are jabbed after 10 weeks old, so I am surprised you have never heard of it.  Do any of you titre test to check your dog's levels rather than adding unnecessary vaccine, each year?  Back as recently as 5 years ago, there were still vets vaccinating at 6 weeks old, nowadays most vets will not vaccinate that early and wait until at least 8 weeks.  As with everything, the more we learn, the more protocol changes.

Sorry munrogirl, I see you have already mentioned titre testing :-)

Without testing you will not know if the maternal antibodies are adequate, bearing in mind puppies are all weaned at different times.  By the time the results are obtained you may as well have covered the puppy anyway.  Leptospirosis vaccine always requires two treatments. You can find more information about this on the Intervet site.
You might want to see what they have to say about homeopathy.

But it is written by the vaccine company so its a completely biased opinion.  This company are bound to agree with the vaccine opinion, and not agree with the homeopathy, how else would they be able to earn such huge profits each year!  The same company who used to recommend yearly vacs for some diseases, then changed to every 2 years, then changed again to every 3 years! 

I don't claim that homeopathic nosodes will protect my dog, but then neither does vaccination guarantee this.  I know of heap loads of dogs who have contracted and sometimes died from diseases that they were completely up to date vaccinated against, lepto in particular.  One of my friends had a puppy who died of parvo within a week of his parvo jab! As you say, you don't know when the maternal antibodies wear off (tho research has shown usually gone by 12 weeks), so whilst you could have an unprotected dog, you could also be overvaccinating.  Hence the reason, why I can understand 10 weeks, more so than 8 weeks.  You are between the devil and the deep blue sea, whichever way you go.

I agree with vaccinating, however I feel, for my dogs, and imho there is a safer way, than the usual 8 and 10 weeks I just wish there wasn't so many differing opinions throughout out the vets, most owners don't know which way to go.  I know of 5 local vets to me who all have different opinions regarding when to vaccinate and how often.

I think this is a subject open to a huge amount of discussion and possibly always will be.  It can be very difficult to agree when our differing opinions are all based on the health and wellbeing of our dogs:-)

> One of my friends had a puppy who died of parvo within a week of his parvo jab!

In that case he was probably incubating the disease before vaccination - vaccines can only do what it says on the tin.

Heaploads of vaccinated dogs contracting vaccinable diseases sounds like an awful lot! How many do you mean exactly?

But I agree - it is a subject with a lot of differing opinions, and strictly there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer because each individual is different. You have to research, weigh up the risks and make your decision based on that. I am on the fence regarding homeopathy in general, and am open to persuasion - but nosodes I personally feel would be a waste of my money, I do not believe they work. I do what I believe is best for my dogs - it is all you can do.

>But it is written by the vaccine company so its a completely biased opinion

The thing is it's not just the vaccine company.  For all the years than homeopathy has been around they have never yet managed the very simple, and potentially cheap, task of producing evidence of efficacy though double blind trials.  I say cheap because it does not have to be something as costly to evaluate as vaccination efficacy, any of the trillion things it claims to do would do for a start.

>but then neither does vaccination guarantee this. 

No, they don't guarantee it but they have shown to be enormously effective across the board.

>You are between the devil and the deep blue sea, whichever way you go.

Not really, the benefits and risks are very far from finely matched.  The vast majority of puppies receive two vaccination for their primary course and the vast majority are perfectly healthy for it.

As the puppy had not gone out of the house and the owner had no other dogs, the possibility of him having contracted the disease was extremely low.  I'm sorry, but vaccines are not completely safe (and even intervet have admitted that). Also, the vet confirmed that in his opinion, the outcome was as a result of the vaccine. 

"Heaploads" means hearing about these dogs on a regular basis, this was one of the reasons I began to look into vaccine side effects, something vets are becoming more realistic about, hence their differences in opinions nowadays.

I think you are misunderstanding me, I am not arguing homeopathy versus vaccination.  I repeat, I agree with vaccination, I am simply saying that they are not without risk and, I repeat again, vets are nowadays becoming more aware of this fact, hence the large range of differing opinions and approaches.  Look at the opinion of the vet in the opening post.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree :-).

>One of my friends had a puppy who died of parvo within a week of his parvo jab!

The incubation period for parvo is anything from 3 - 10 days (depending on who you ask), so he probably contracted it before he had his jab ...

>"Heaploads" means hearing about these dogs on a regular basis

Over what timescale? I know of two dogs with suspected vaccine reactions in a two-year period at the vet where I work.

But it could have been the parvo jab, and my friend's veterinary surgeon felt this was the case.  Especially as the dog had not gone out of the house, nor did they own any other dogs (as per my previous post).  The Guide Dogs for the Blind Ass vaccinate their puppies after 12 weeks old and surely they are the organisation who are most socialisation conscious? 

My friend who is a veterinary nurse, informed me of at least 3 of the "heaploads" of dogs contracting diseases they were fully vaccinated against.

Again, I am literally stating that I feel vacs would be safer if left to at least 10 weeks of age.  I do not advocate not vaccinating!

> The Guide Dogs for the Blind Ass vaccinate their puppies after 12 weeks old

Could you say where you heard that? It's not what I've heard.

It was in a dog magazine I read in a waiting room at the beginning of the year.

>The Guide Dogs for the Blind Ass vaccinate their puppies after 12 weeks old

That's not what I was told at my interview with them a few years ago. At that time the first jab was at 6 weeks, before they went to their walker. However there's a GDBA staff member who occasionally posts on here who'll be able to give you the undisputed facts (if she reads this).

Thats good then.

I always thought that they did them at 6 weeks too, not that I would.

Surely if your friends have no other dog in the house the pup had come from a breeder, ie could have been contacted the parvo there?

I understand your thinking Perrodeagua, however the puppy was 10 weeks old, came from breeder at 7 weeks, as mentioned incubation period of 3-10 days, makes the vaccine the more likely cause.  Even her vet though the vaccine was responsible.  There is no proof that this is the case, as there is no proof that this is not the case, we will never know for sure but it has to be a consideration.   

Yes, pups only need one vaccination after 12 weeks old for distemper and parvo, up to then they are covered by maternal antibodies.  However if you are going to vaccinate against lepto then this has to be given in 2 seperate shots.  Preferably 14 weeks and then again at 16 weeks.

The reason vets give 2 shots is if they are vaccinated before 12 weeks of age, the first shot wipes out maternal antibodies, so a second is necessary, so wait until after 12 weeks and worth remembering that once a dog has immunity then the immunity lasts for 7 yesrs to life.  Have a look at cannine health website for lots of information on over vaccination:  http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

I agreed with you Zajak, opionions vary and all we can do is read as much info as possible, weighing up the risks and benefits.  I had my boy vaccinated as a puppy after 12 weeks and he does have immunity now at 2 1/2.  However, I do sometimes need to kennel my dogs and have found a kennels who accept homeopathic nosodes administered by a vet, so twice yearly my boys have nosodes.   It's worth having a titre test if you want to find out what their immunity is.

> Preferably 14 weeks and then again at 16 weeks.
>

The only recommendation is after 6 weeks but I think 14/16 weeks would be leaving it a bit late for most peoples wish to get their puppies out. Some dogs are immune after 7 years but will that be yours?

It is safer to leave the lepto vaccine until after the first parvo/distemper vaccine, as there is an opinion too many vaccines at any one time are more likely to cause an adverse reaction, therefore splitting them may be safer.  It's an opinion I agree with, but everyone will have their own ideas.  This being the reason the vaccine for lepto is a little later than usual.
 
Yes, you are right in asking would the immune dog be our own and the only way we can confirm this is by having a titre test. 

> This being the reason the vaccine for lepto is a little later than usual.
>

No it isn't. It would require two treatments regardless of what else was being given.

> Yes, you are right in asking would the immune dog be our own and the only way we can confirm this is by having a titre test.

That's one way another is just to follow the recommended regime to ensure continuous cover.

normally vets give all the vaccines together, I stated that there is a school of thought, to vaccinate later with parvo and distemper, so only one vaccine for that is needed, and then doing the lepto seperately, I think you either misunderstood what I wrote or maybe I wasn't clear enough.  Hope this clarifies.

If we all blindly follow the recommended regime we risk causing adverse reactions to our dogs, for those of us who don't want to do that either because our dogs or friends dogs have experienced these reactions, it is best to be cautious and not over vaccinate :)  to progress we have to question and not blindly follow.

>If we all blindly follow the recommended regime

You make it sound like the regime is just dreamt up out of nowhere :-).  This is the evidence based recommendation of the veterinary profession. Call it blindly following if you like but as neither of use are in a position to ever produce the evidence to answer our questioning for ourselves this appears to be the best course of action to me. 

then I certainly think you should follow what you believe, but I also have the choice to follow what I believe :)

Hear Hear Perry!  On the subject of following the vets guidelines, as I have mentioned several times now during this discussion, if these guidelines are so strongly backed up by research, why are so many vets giving different advice?

> if these guidelines are so strongly backed up by research, why are so many vets giving different advice?

If you read the manufacturers recommendations they do allow for quite a varying parameter as all puppies backgrounds will vary.

So why all the arguing about waiting a few weeks?  If that is the case then this discussion has all been for nothing!

Different vaccines from different manufacturers have different protocols for one thing....

> So why all the arguing about waiting a few weeks?  If that is the case then this discussion has all been for nothing!

Because you are missing out on the gains to be made by an early start in socialising.

You can still socialise your puppy, because he has his mum's immunity! If different vaccine companies have different protocol, again, why all the conviction of vaccinating at 8 weeks?

You can socialise without early vaccination.

If different vaccine companies have different protocol, again, why all the conviction of vaccinating at 8 weeks?

Well, it could be something to do with making twice the amount of money?  I might be wrong on this one, but the thought has crossed my  mind on more than one occasion.

> because he has his mum's immunity!

It is fading fast at this stage.  I would not wish to risk it.

However, you will risk vaccine damage?  As I said previously I think devil and deep blue sea springs to mind!  For my dogs, I prefer to go the safer route of vaccine, reduce the chance of vaccine damage by vaccinating later but keeping my puppy safe because of his immunity from his mother (albeit starting to fade towards 12 weeks old).  As we said previously everyone has to do what they are comfortable with don't they?

> Well, it could be something to do with making twice the amount of money?

The entire profession would have to be so greedy in their desire for that second few pounds to collude in falsifying the evidence. How likely is that?  But if we are going to be so cynical and insulting could we not equally say that those who wish to avoid paying for a second vaccination are also driven by money?

The second few pounds!  Come on!  The amount of dogs having 2nd vaccines each year and you think its a few pounds!  It costs me at least double the cost of a vaccine to titre test, so its hardly avoiding paying for 2nd vaccine or subsequent boosters that puts me off.  Overvaccinating is the cheaper option!!!

They could recoup a lot more if they undervaccinate and leave puppies exposed to disease but never mind, my point was really that the idea that this is all profit led is a nonsense.