Hi All, Having read some recent posts on the board I'm quite shocked that some people separate mums and pups at what I consider an early age ~5-6weeks. I bred my first litter last year and mum had access to her pups for the full 8 weeks they were here and they were suckling until they went. I advised new owners to leave their vaccs until they were away from us for a week. They are all 12 months now and are happy well adjusted dogs :-). Is it usual to split mums from pups weeks prior to them going to their new homes? I would be very worried if I went to see a litter and they were completely separate. 
Angela

The only time I separate mum from pups is, when weaning, for about half an hour after she's eaten so that she doesn't regurgitate for the puppies. And, of course, when they're eating so that she doesn't scoff it all! Other than that she has free access all the time; it's fascinating watching them teach the pups how to behave!

Same here.  By feeding them solids before she has access to them after her food just drops off the demand for her milk naturally.  I'm so glad it has worked that way for me because the thought of trying to keep them seperated for more than an hour or so in an ordinary house seems like it would be very difficult for all concerned.

Isabel agree entirely re the difficulties seperating them! LOL Lily (mum) would have objected very strongly! I really don't understand peoples need to separate, my pups were able to interact with the other 2 dogs (supervised of course) and I really think they benefited from the interaction. Someone I know seperates their pups at 5 weeks and then gives new owners a socialisation checklist? Just don't get it.
Angela

Jeangenie, my bitch didn't regurgitate for the pups but uncle Koda did once! She never ate out of their bowl either (koda tried once when they had finished but got thoroughly told off by Lily) but  Lily took great delight in cleaning them up afterwards :-)

I don't breed, but I agree with you - as a puppy buyer I would expect mum to be with pups till at least 7\8 weeks.

Most breeders will be guided by the bitch herself. My bitches have usually had enough of being pulled about by the puppies by the time they get to about 6 weeks. At this age, I keep the bitch away from the pups overnight, (much to the bitches relief), but allow the bitch to go in with the pups whenever she wants to during the day. I usually find that the bitch will want to spend some time with the puppies first thing in the morning, but will be whining to be let out after about 20 minutes, and will then visit them several times during the day. Basically, when she goes to the pen and wants to be let in, I let her in but keep an eye out for her wanting to come out. I think it's very misguided to insist that the bitch stays with the puppies all the time if she quite plainly wants a bit of peace and quiet away from them.

Same here - I never forced Ellie to be in with them, but kept her away for about an hour after she'd eaten. I also put a babygro on her for a week or two while she was with them so they couldn't latch on for comfort once they were essentially weaned, as she didn't like not being able to move because she had little vampires attached to her!! :-)

Most breeders will be guided by the bitch herself. My bitches have usually had enough of being pulled about by the puppies by the time they get to about 6 weeks. At this age, I keep the bitch away from the pups overnight, (much to the bitches relief), but allow the bitch to go in with the pups whenever she wants to during the day.

Yes same here -by 6 weeks mine have usually had more than enough and only want to go in a couple of times a day for a few minutes. At that age I'd say the most important thing is for the littermates to still be together.

What a brilliant idea Lucydogs, I'll definitely be making a trip to mothercare before my next litter.

I agree MarianneB. Most people throw up their hands in horror at the thought of puppies being separated from their mother before 8 weeks, but contact with siblings is far more important between 6 and 8 weeks.

I have found my bitches varied as to how much they wanted to be with pups after five weeks.

This bitch was one of the martyr kind of Mums for the first month, being with them almost constantly, but to be honest from five weeks onwards she has only nipped into see them briefly, and now at 7 weeks acts totally disinterested in them, in fact the others have more interest than she does, but great Grandma only wants to yell and snarl at them, but somehow they are not convinced ;)

Lily was never forced to spend time with her pups she was in control of her contact but to prevent her being with them when she wanted to be there would have been cruel. The pups were in a puppy pen that she had full access to but why seperate them permanently at 5-6wks?

It's just as cruel to force the bitch to be with the pups after they no longer want to. :) And large breeds can't really be kept in a puppy pen, when you have 8-10 large pups there is no other choice than a kennel with run outside, so then you have to split mum and pups up at night if she doesn't want to be with them 24/7.

I also feel it is better for the pups to get used to being without their mum a bit before being sold -it won't be such an abrupt change then.

From between 5 and 6 weeks my bitches have tended to avoid their pups, even though they wanted to be with them, because their teeth were sharp! At that stage the bitches have always been standing to feed the pups (helps with natural weaning), and they weren't quite big enough to suckle without pulling. An enclosure with a barrier high enough to confine the pups, but low enough for mum to jump, did the trick. By 6 weeks they'd grown enough for a comfort suck to not be painful, so the bitches have had a 'second wind' and started enjoying their babies again.

I'd never deny them the pleasure of that final stage of motherhood.

But I'm guessing you just separate them at night Marianne - don't completely cut off contact between bitch and pups at 5\6 weeks?

> It's just as cruel to force the bitch to be with the pups after they no longer want to. :-)

I agree, she should always be able to escape whenever she wishes but ideally you should not be forcing the situation in either direction I feel.

We still have 4 puppies at home with mum at the moment they will all be leaving in the next 3 weeks (except the 1 im keeping) the pups will be 10 week wednesday and mum is still feeding them 3 plus times a day she is quite happy to be with them, last week i did try to seperate them using a stair gate but she broke it down i was worried she would damage herself so i let her be with them.
My question is do they have to be seperated will it affect mum in any way and what is the maximum age i should let her feed them for????

>My question is do they have to be seperated will it affect mum in any way and what is the maximum age i should let her feed them for????

No, you don't have to separate them; and she'll decide how long to feed them. I never separated mine; each time I kept a pup from the litter and each time the bitch had stopped feeding them by 12 weeks. They stop naturally.

My bitches tend to avoid their pups for a few days, somewhere between 5 & 6 weeks.  Once their milk has diminished, the pups stop lunging at the milkbar and the dam is happy to return to teach them how to play and have good dog manners until they leave for their new homes.  This is the time that tends to determine when I let them leave.  If this has happened early, then I'm happy to let the pups go soon after 7 weeks.  If the litter is slower and at 7 weeks the dam has only just returned, then I keep the pups longer so that they benefit from their materal teaching.

My girls weaned the pups themselves, they just walked away when they didnt want them feeding.  One of them regurgitated food for the pups, the other didnt.  This started around 5-6 weeks old. They didnt go in at all at night from around that time.

As with the others, our bitches are all different, but in general, they have had enough of sharp teeth  by about 5 weeks.   Also, the risk of mastitis is huge with babies hanging onto teats.      They go in and out at will but are happier back in with the big pack as a rule.

We have to be very careful with our pups, as our bitches have an insatiable appetite for horrid rotting things they find on the common, which cause all sorts of mayhem if this gets regurgitated for the pups!

Totally agree that interaction with siblilngs is at least as important as interaction with Mum

Jo

My bitches are always around but yep at 5 weeks most of mine have had enough of their pups and will only want to go in with them for an extremely short period.  Carmen was the only one who stayed with hers near enough until the boy went to his new home at 7 weeks.  Maybe due to the fact that she only had a small litter of two.

With my last litter of 9, mum wanted to be with them 24/7 she was even feeding them just before they left us, I normally take mum away at night at 6 weeks, just to give her a break, but not this time, she got so stressed she paced, panted and wouldn't settle until I let her back in with them.

I've never taken mum away completely

But I'm guessing you just separate them at night Marianne - don't completely cut off contact between bitch and pups at 5\6 weeks?

By then the pups will be in a huge kennel with run outside in the back garden (rephrase that: they will be in there at night and during most of the day, but they will also have 2-3 times each day of running around the entire garden) and mum will be in the back garden in which the kennel stands, so she can see them all the time except at night, and can indicate clearly if she wants to go in to them or not. Which usually is only when the pups are fed -so she can steal their food. :)

thankyou jeangenie that put my mind at rest after reading all the other posts. My bitch i having a great time playing and feeding her babies so glad i dont have to put a stop to it

When the pups are confined in the house they're in the utility room with a board across the doorway high enough to keep them in but that mum can easily jump whenever she wants. As they grow they get access to the kitchen as well, again with an adult-jumpable barrier at the doorway to the rest of the house. They also have free access to the (secure) garden.

Same here giving mum full access to her pups if she wants. Another question though, if mum is still feeding pups at 8 weeks will this mean the pups will still be getting antibodies from mum and could this affect the vaccination regime (as mums antibodies prevent vaccine from working?) Lily had a suit on once the rest of the pups went @ 8wks so Lunar (pup kept) couldn't suckle although she tried only once or twice.
Angela

The protocol where I work is that the first vaccine isn't given until the new owner has had the pup for a week, mainly to give the pup time to settle in and make sure it isn't brewing any illness; this would also mean that the maternal antibodies - weak at that age, even if the pups are still suckling - have waned sufficiently.

Thanks for that, I decided that I would do puppy jabs and first booster but I was a little worried hence the suit.
angela

Ellie absolutely loved playing with the puppies once they'd given up trying to nurse, they spent hours rolling around with each other, as our older two boys have never been very playful. :-)

I think if the mother wants to be with the puppies then she should until 8 weeks... (obviouslythe pups should be fully weaned too)
Unfortunately in my litter the mum came down with a bug and had to go on antibiotics as she had a dreadful fever... she had to be seperated from them from the age of 5 weeks and it was absoloutly heart breaking :(:(:(:(:(:(

So sorry to hear that was the case :-(