My friend, has an akita.  The dog is approx 2 years old.

This dog is very dominant, and very aggressive.  He has gone after other dogs, and even bites the owners (almost daily).  My friend cant even pet the dog on the head, for more than 10 seconds because the dog will bite him.

I can see now, how CMs methods dont work all to well, for a case of red zone aggression.  My friend has flipped his dog on his back (which the dog will just reach up and try to bite my friend in the face), he has tried the dog bite thing that CM does. 

Each time the dog bites him, I hear "well the dog bit me again, and it hurt like a son of a gun".  But not in a real serious manner, more kinda joking????? 

He has tried taking the dog to obedience classes, but the trainers say "An akita????  No thankyou"  or refuse the dog because he is very aggressive.

I have suggested muzzles, and he walks the dog with a muzzle now, but its not muzzled in the house. 

I fear of a child walking to the door, or on the property and getting bit. 

Apparently, he talked to a highly respected Akita trainer in the states, and the response back was "get this dog under control or have him PTS."  Neither he seems to be doing.

What would you do???  I fear more for a child, or another animal, than my friend.  I mean I wouldnt want to see my friend seriously bit, but a child wandering to close, or another animal.........they definately dont know what could happen.

Any replies would be great!  (dont worry about being harsh, I think he needs that!!!)

I am guessing this is US or Canada. Is Jean Donaldson over there - does she travel and do behaviour stuff? Though TBH from what you have described I would be seriously considering euthanasia - me being me I would want a good reward based behaviourist to assess the dog first and the risks posed and give me advice on whether I could train or whether I should euthanase. IMO any sort of physical aggression shown to this dog will make him more aggressive in return - and he has learnt that he can use aggression against humans.

Ontario Canada

A lot of people have told him to put the dog down, but he replies "Its a Japanese Akita, they are fiesty"  Min pins are fiesty too, but I have yet to be bite by my own dog. 

My aunts reply (she is an obedience trainer for 40 years) was that if he was going to keep teh dog, he better have good insurance." 

Sad, cos the dog is pretty, and if it was well trained, would have made a wonderful pet

Hi Crespin,

the parts that jump out most to me are that this dog bites it's owner and someone (allegedly) respected in the breed has commented that it should be under control or PTS.  The owner's control attempts based on the CM methods sound IMO (at least on the face of it) to have been very much against what should have been done and this may or may not have pushed things too far.

I would not wish to recommend the fate of any dog based on such limited info but would certainly wish to encourage your friend to (a) to have the dog thoroughly vet checked in case there are medical / neurological reasons behind this behaviour, (b) muzzle this dog indoors as well as out while (c) waiting to have the dog assessed - VERY soon - by a respected behaviourist in person who can see for him/herself what the behaviour is genuinely like, attempt to assess the cause (assuming no med reasons were found) and make an informed and realistic decision about whether this aggression is something which can be turned around.
We own our dogs for pleasure, companionship, interaction etc, all of which should be mutual, and this certainly doesn't sound pleasurable to either dog or owner at the moment.  A tough one and very sad too :(

I wish them well.

Oh dear - Cesar Milan's techniques just do not help dogs like this in spite of his claims. Of course the owner is being bitten, and also why is he patting his dog on the head when the dog might be expecting him any minute to do an "alpha roll"? :(

I really hope the dog wasn't made like this due to CM techniques in the first place, as that would be too too sad.

I'd get him to get in touch with as has been recommended, Jean Donaldson, to recommend someone in the area:

Web Site: www.jeandonaldson.com, www.sfspca.org

Email: jdonaldson@sfspca.org

I believe Akitas can have problems with hypothyroid which can cause aggression.

if he's looked into a behaviourist and has had the dog vet checked and still they can't do anything there is only one thing left for them really. so sad. i don;t know if its just the way i've read you post but it sounds like this person is not terribly fussed about the damage their dog could do. to me my dog biting anything would be a disaster not something to joke about!

hoope your friend sees sense and gets a good trainer in or can make a really hard decision :(

> the parts that jump out most to me are that this dog bites it's owner and someone (allegedly) respected in the breed has commented that it should be under control or PTS.  The owner's control attempts based on the CM methods sound IMO (at least on the face of it) to have been very much against what should have been done and this may or may not have pushed things too far.
>
> would not wish to recommend the fate of any dog based on such limited info but would certainly wish to encourage your friend to (a) to have the dog thoroughly vet checked in case there are medical / neurological reasons behind this behaviour, (b) muzzle this dog indoors as well as out while (c) waiting to have the dog assessed - VERY soon - by a respected behaviourist in person who can see for him/herself what the behaviour is genuinely like, attempt to assess the cause (assuming no med reasons were found) and make an informed and realistic decision about whether this aggression is something which can be turned around

totally agree, but if this person just believes their dog is just 'fiesty' (?????!!) and it should be as it is because of its breed it sounds like they think things are fine (mystifyingly) so i have my doubts about whether they would go to such trouble and expense :( (of course this is just based on the info given). hope they do though, such a shame.

Hi Crespin, Sadly your story sounds so similar to what my friend went through about 7 years ago. They- her & her OH had a GSD and was brought up mostly by the boyfriend, when he left and my friend had total care of this dog he was the same age when he became a nightmare 2 yrs old. My friend knew he could be "off" with people by that I mean growling and barking mostly outside, one evening a gang of her girlfriends came to her house for a girl's night in bottle of wine & a Chinese meal- now one of the guests did fear Mitchell as he had a bad reputation but my friend said he will be fine in the house once he has smelt you all and everyone has sat down.
After the girls had their Chinese takeaway this was over an hour later, this poor girl reached down to get something out of her handbag and Mitchell leaped at her face and bit her badly apparently her cheek was nearly hanging off. Of course the girl was taken to hospital and the girls  family demanded the owner to have this dog put down but she didn't. To this day this young girl from 19 years old onwards as had to bare the most horrible scar- lets hope it has faded some now. My friend made excuses for her dog and what it had done saying this girl must of frightened the dog into doing this to her!! Now I didn't meet this owner until after this incident and that's how we became friends she came to me to ask her to help her with her dog.
I met Mitchell took him for a walk and was fine but as soon as I met him in his house he was not to be trusted. I tried acting very passive but just knew he would or could attack me at any time. I did watch my friend on how she told him off etc and she would go right up to his face shouting at him and I told her he will one day bite you in the face as he has your friend. I told her the best thing would be to have him put to sleep or try and get the forces or army to take him. It took me a long time for her to face the fact that she didn't have control over this dog and with her having a small child of 2 yrs that it would not be long before he might see her as a threat and attack her. Of course he was great with the baby but the penny finally dropped one day when she was telling Mitchell off and she used to send him up stairs- as he would not go and was sat half way up the stairs staring down at her- she again went straight up to his face to shout at him to- get up stairs! Thats when he caught her on her face only a warning snap- I could see the mark he had left, again on her cheek- but still he had gone for her as I had predicted. She saw sense after that and I contacted the rehabilitation centre a man who lives locally and he assessed Mitchell and took him the same day. My friend did get an ex police dog trainer to help her with him paying out over £200. Which he just proved she could not handle this dog. I enquired about the dogs parents to her one day just generally trying to help her see she was frighting a losing battle, and what they were like as pets and found out the sire had to be locked in a room because he was so aggressive towards people.
The reason for telling you this story is because the relationship your friend has with his dog now has gone bad and will never improve, either give him to someone who can train this dog  or have him put to sleep as he will one day cause upset which should never of happened in the beginning. It is cruel on the dog to live life like this when it does not have to.  

> Apparently, he talked to a highly respected Akita trainer in the states, and the response back was "get this dog under control or have him PTS."  Neither he seems to be doing

See now in the light of that... I fail to see how anything *we* can say can make a difference, Unless your friend has decided that euthanasia is just not an option and went with the 'get it under control' option and as you said couldnt find a trainer to take his dog on so has let this situation ride.... (men! ;) )
    *If* thats the case I'd advise you to call Steve Watson (705) 428 3039 or Maureen Stapleton (416) 899 3370 They are both in Ontario (as your in CA Cresp.) and head up Akita Breed Rescue, they will have a good idea of Behaviourists/trainers who will fit the bill here. Not only that Im sure they can give you some good first hand experience (working in rescue) of a fair few cautionary tales!!
HTH?

Hi magica,

> I told her the best thing would be to have him put to sleep or try and get the forces or army to take him

for the benefit of anyone coming across this thread I think it best to point out that the forces, any forces, do not want or need dogs with the behavioural background and/or complications of the dog you describe.

At one time, and I thought the days had long gone, it was pretty much standard advice or notion for anyone with an "iffy GSD" to try and offload them to the police or military.  However, our forces need dogs over which they have 100% confidence in control and anything that is unpredictable or a loose cannon is useless.  Generally they breed or import their own although as I understand it they now have liaison staff who source well bred, healthy, temperament assessed stock where needed to widen their gene pools or fast-track a dog through training.  Many working police and army dogs are living as family pets for much of their lives - they need to be of exemplary character.

Sadly many dogs of very unsound temperament may find their way into the hands of less scrupulous "guard dog" companies but these dogs are a liability and IMO any dog so savage as the one you describe should be humanely PTS as soon as possible. 

I feel strongly that genuine liabilities should never be passed on.

As I said, I'm not being personal to you or your experience.  These comments are more of a general nature to anyone who may come across this info through a search engine and think it appropriate to try and re-home a vicious dog which they cannot face having euthanised - but as owners we must take that responsibility if, God forbid, we are ever in the awful position of having a dog behaving as described :(

regards, Teri

I own a 3 1/2 year old Akita and yes fiesty could be a good word to use when she's in a funny mood but never, ever do I doubt her temperament with anyone and definitely not myself.  If any of my dogs bit me and especially more than once I'm not afraid to say they would no longer be here....how can you live with a dog you couldn't trust!!

Akita's can be handful if brought up badly (the same as any breed really), they are dominant over other dogs and generally don't tolerate other dogs but if properly socialised they should not be outwardly aggressive to humans or dogs...this is a bad trait.

At 2 years old the boy is still young...what's going to happen when he starts to mature over the next year...someone is going to get seriously hurt.  I don't agree with CM methods of training and on Akita's rough handling will get you no where...you need to be firm but fair...they need a leader.

Hi Teri,

Thank you for your reply.

Rather a long winded story before, I know... and yes I did tell this young single mum when she asked my opinion on her dog, that I would have him put to sleep if my animal had done such a thing, I even offered to take him down the vet for her. When she refused I knew he was a ticking bomb ready to go off and with a young baby just starting to walk I was worried what might of happened to this child. I gave her the number of this ex policeman that came to help her with him but the dog knew so well his Mum was a push over. When that failed that was when I contacted this dog rehabilitation centre a local man advertised for any working dog out of control many breeds he mainly surprisingly dealt with springer spaniels but would get the odd Gsd. He said every Gsd he came to evaluate usually was a scared dog who's bark was worse than his bite and that would be frightened to attack- sadly not so Mitchell.  Apparently he trained them then gave them to the army not the police.  He does not advertise anymore so if this happened now this would not of been an option.

Hi magica,

> Rather a long winded story before, I know

this to the expert in long winded :-D

As I tried to say although following on from your own experience wasn'tintended to be critical of you and the circumstances at the time.  Clearly you tried very hard to help your friend - sometimes we can do no more.

regards, Teri

I feel so sorry for the Akita.
He is at an age where he will be pushing boundries and seeing what he can get away with, it sounds as if the owner has given him no guidence and has played a huge part in bringing this behaviour about by alpha rolling the dog. The poor dog will have no trust in his owner, so why would he listen to an owner he didn't trust?

I am no way an expert in dog behaviour and I am defiantely not as experienced as most people on here regarding dogs in general. But I have learnt a whole new way from my Mastiff, he is a dog that can not be physically manhandled and bullied, even getting mad and shouting would just cause him to walk all over you, he needs calm handling, patience, consistency - absoulute consistency is a must with strong-willed powerfull dogs, and the most important thing of all is trust - something that can't be achieved by pinning the dog to the floor.
I really hope the owner sees the light and realises that the possibilities with reward-based training are far greater than any harsh 'quick fix', it's just that they may take longer. I'd rather have a large powerfull dog that behaved & followed commands because it WANTS to & ENJOYS it (reward-based training), not through fear & bullying - that is just a time-bomb waiting to go off :(

I hope the dog can be trained before it's too late but I fear the owner the will not be willing to put in the effort as it will be a lot of work, if something isn't done then somebody is going to get seriously hurt :(

*If* thats the case I'd advise you to call Steve Watson (705) 428 3039 or Maureen Stapleton (416) 899 3370 They are both in Ontario (as your in CA Cresp.) and head up Akita Breed Rescue, they will have a good idea of Behaviourists/trainers who will fit the bill here. Not only that Im sure they can give you some good first hand experience (working in rescue) of a fair few cautionary tales!!

Thank you HG for those numbers!!!!!  I will definately pass them along (as well as the website and email of the other behaviourist that others have mentioned)

I wonder sometimes, as I think he may of gotten the breed because they are macho.  I must admit, I know VERY little about Akitas.  But the stuff he has tried to "enlighten" me on with the breed, is the power and strength.  And how rough they are. 

I also wonder, if he wasnt ready for a breed like this.  Before, he had labs.  Labs seem to be a little (ok a lot) easier than Akitas. 

I have read that they can be animal aggressive, but I have only read of one breed that is human aggressive, and the Akita wasnt it. 

I do know he wants help with his dog, as he has asked several times if I know of anyone.  I have passed on breeders names (that come highly respected in the breed) to see if they could give some insight.

But the marks from the bites are getting bigger and bigger.  One day, I worry its going to be his entire face or something that is bit off. 

I think before anyone tries any methods of training, they should see what is going to work.  Like, some of CM things can work (like looking straight ahead on walks, instead of down at the dog, makes the dog walk easier).  But something like dog bites with your hand, and holding down, arent good with these kind of issues, and especially not someone who isnt experienced with dogs of this magnatude.

I want to thank EVERYONE for their replies.  I will definately pass on all the information (and a link to this thread in an email) to my friend. 

Good luck :)

FYI for your friend, a link to hypothyroid, aggression and Akitas

http://www.akitarescue.com/aggressi.htm

and from it:

The disease is very much a part of the Akita and not simply an intermittent, environmental condition. We are seeing epidemic proportions of thyroid disease in our dealings with Akitas--there is little doubt in the minds of most open-minded folks that a genetic cause is responsible. TEST.

Perhaps you've been surfing the Internet for an answer to sudden onset aggression in your own Akita. TEST. Unexplained aggression is often linked to health problems. Begin your search by having your Akita tested for thyroid disease.

and some other info which might be of interest:

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/alpha-roll-or-alpha-role
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2007/Debunking%20Dom%20Myth%201-05.doc
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/whycant.htm

Can I just add - if they are looking into the hypothyroid angle Jean Dodds is brilliant - look up Hemopet - she is in the USA. I have had dealings with her re my flatcoat's thyroid.

Can I just add - if they are looking into the hypothyroid angle Jean Dodds is brilliant - look up Hemopet - she is in the USA. I have had dealings with her re my flatcoat's thyroid.

So I am guessing you can do correspondance calls and such, instead of going to the office??? 

Will look her up on the web.

In Response to Lindsay:

Thank you so much for your reply, such work done on your part, to find some valuable websites. 

I really hope my friends akita, isnt to far gone.  I hope the aggression can be turned around, whether it is a medical reason (such as thyroid) or behavioural.

Thanks Crespin, :) I do hope your friend has some luck and that his dog can be helped, in some ways if it is medical it might even be easier. Fingers crossed for a good outcome :)

Personally I dont think it will be medical ....It sounds to me that it ia the case of a very inexperienced owner with a breed that needs knowledgeable owners.... Get advice  and the remark about insurance ....well money wont help if a child is disfigured  sometimes just sometimes we fail as owners and the kindest thing is to have the dog put to sleep and it is definately not a laughing matter ....my daughter nearly lost an eye when a neighbours dog jumped over their fence and mauled her ....my little girl  was 4 years old and believe me24 years later i still feel the same ..If a dog bites it should not be given an oppurtunity to do so again (sorry about the spelling )