> We have a fantastic system in this country and I wish people would stop knocking it at times, there are huge huge flaws with the policing of the system but the " infrastructure" is very good

I have to agree, yes of course it is difficutl to manage on beneift, but it is enough to manage with.

I have lots of family in Poland and there there is no real welfare system only contributory Unemployment Benefit which is paid for 6 months and is a nominal amount, there is no help with Rent or for real living expenses, so unless you have family to help you in need there is nothing.

No-one here will be left to starve, might be hard to manage, but you can if you pare down to the essentials.

> No-one here will be left to starve, might be hard to manage, but you can if you pare down to the essentials.

That's exactly what we had to do, budget, prioritise what needed to be paid....etc and cut back on other things.

>That's exactly what we had to do, budget, prioritise what needed to be paid....etc and cut back on other things.

Yep, likewise. I found that I could feed a family of three for £30 a week.

Just wanted to add to any concerned parties, and this is not a reference to Barbara's relatives.  I am still actively helping the polish couple to keep a roof over their heads, they now have another baby to it is even more essential. I am not racist. Due to flaws is our stystem it now looks like my son may loose his home, he has no children (not well enough to father them so no stud applications please! :)).

I bow to the knowledge of many others who have first hand experience, and reiterate that mine is not hearsay but first hand and bow out now before I say anything else foolish.

I don't think it is so outlandish to plan our lives and commitments to cover for these eventualities witnessed by the fact that you can buy critical illness insurance for meet this need.
Critical Illness cover does not cover for pre exisiting medical problems, and very often also those that could follow on from a pre existing condition, and this also includes life insurance, mortgage protection etc...

My good ness, if only we could all see into your crystal ball Isobel.....and can't you leave the lass alone, she's got enough to bear without all this needless chipping at everything she says. the lass is worried, upset, ill, and venting off her feelings, like many have done here. And with many comments the general public make regarding the very poor benefit system we have in this country for us taxpayers...not everyone shares your views that all is rosy, because 'it ain't' and I'd like to see you manage on £75 a week and the partners income which possibly only just comes over the accepted allowence.....and all these figures worked out when things were cheaper, utility bills, food, fuel....as you must realise we are in a credit crunch heading for recession? A £100 a week goes a lot less furthur than 12 months ago.

> and can't you leave the lass alone, she's got enough to bear without all this needless chipping at everything she says. the lass is worried, upset, ill, and venting off her feelings

Agree :)

>I'd like to see you manage on £75 a week and the partners income which possibly only just comes over the accepted allowence.....

Don't you think that input from people who've been there (it's not so long ago that we had absolutely no income - totally zero - for three months) and survived, and have tips for budgeting and making the money go further (if you're cold, put on a jumper and fill a hot-water bottle, etc) is of much more help to Astarte than simple commiseration on how awful it could be? Nobody has anything less than total sympathy about her illness and her forthcoming surgery - but continually painting a black and gloomy picture won't help her mindset, will it? As the song goes "Always look on the bright side of Life" - it makes bad times easier to cope with.

Well said JG!

It's common these days to hear talk of the 'breakdown of society', no family values and the like...... but the Welfare State was never designed to take the place of families.. yet many expect it to. It is designed as the safety net and my opinion (for what it's worth)   the £75 benifit is an addition to your loved ones help and support at this time.

Very well thought out and written toolz
(I had a 250,000 words post ready to transfer from my head to board saying exactly the same :-D :-D :-D )

Teri

> I had a 250,000 words post ready to transfer from my head to board saying exactly the same

:-) And far more eloquently put I'm sure..... but probably just as unpopular.

I'd like to see you manage on £75 a week and the partners income which possibly only just comes over the accepted allowence.....

I manage on a tiny income which is far less and keep myself, my daughter and two dogs and run a car and house as well. It is not easy but, by very careful and strict budgeting it can be done. How one manages is often down to the attitude one adopts. If you can manage to look on the positive side of things it is easier to deal with difficult times and I have found that negativity breeds negativity and it is hard to get out of a downward spiral of thoughts. Of course there are times when life can seem very bleak and difficult but I try to remember that there will always be people having a far harder time than me. I am so much better off than many - living rough on the streets must be a terrible existence and I am very thankful that that is not my lot.

Sometimes it can make it easier to view a situation from a different perspective :)

I have to have 4 types of meds a month and I get a prepaid and its great it also means if you need meds for anything else during the year they are covered as well.
I have two migrane meds and 1 is 3 melts and 1 is 6 tabs so i could use loads or they last 6 months its all guess work but at £7.10 a throw it would be a lot.

UNPOPULAR tooolz -  how could that be??? :-D :-D :-D

Seems we've got the pc police all over us these days .......

Lizzie (Harley)

> but I try to remember that there will always be people having a far harder time than me. I am so much better off than many - living rough on the streets must be a terrible existence and I am very thankful that that is not my lot.

just wanted to say that your outlook on life after all you've had to cope with is so positive, determined and truly thoughtful - just as it's always been.  Steve would be so proud.

You're doing great hun and are an example to us all :)
Blessings,
Teri xxx

Ditto Teri from me too!  I think that is why this thread has had such a response, whilst we all sympathise with Astarte and are sorry that she is ill, there are people on this board who have suffered greater hardship (and not just financial) for longer than 2 months and have never whinged about it!

> Critical Illness cover does not cover for pre exisiting medical problems, and very often also those that could follow on from a pre existing condition, and this also includes life insurance, mortgage protection etc...
>

As you can see from my quote you have given I was merely giving this as an example that the concept of planning for the eventuality that we don't see in our crystal ball is out there.  I went on to say I don't think this is a particularly good insurance to buy anyway so I was clearly not suggesting she should have done so. 
As to whether we should be discussing her situation, Astarte raised the issue and, who knows, someone else reading this may now be making the planning that in months or years to come may save them from finding themselves with extra stress just when you don't need it.

>I'd like to see you manage on £75 a week and the partners income which possibly only just comes over the accepted allowence.....and all these figures worked out when things were cheaper, utility bills

I have and yes things were a lot less but then so was the allowance.

thank you very much for the support dexter and calmstorm.

> Don't you think that input from people who've been there (it's not so long ago that we had absolutely no income - totally zero - for three months) and survived, and have tips for budgeting and making the money go further (if you're cold, put on a jumper and fill a hot-water bottle, etc) is of much more help to Astarte than simple commiseration on how awful it could be?

abolutely agree, and the advice like that which has been offered i've taken on board (thank you to those who have given it)- btw i have not had any of the heaters on in my flat since mid january- i have electric wall mounted ones and its stupidly expensive to run them so yes, i put on a jumper and sit under a blanket with my slippers on and a cup of tea.

> I manage on a tiny income which is far less and keep myself, my daughter and two dogs and run a car and house as well. It is not easy but, by very careful and strict budgeting it can be done.

do you have any suggestions?

> If you can manage to look on the positive side of things it is easier to deal with difficult times and I have found that negativity breeds negativity and it is hard to get out of a downward spiral of thoughts. Of course there are times when life can seem very bleak and difficult but I try to remember that there will always be people having a far harder time than me. I am so much better off than many - living rough on the streets must be a terrible existence and I am very thankful that that is not my lot.
>

i quite agree and in general i am a very positive person, i simply started this thread in a moment of upset and weakness, an apparent mistake. i know there are people far worse of in this world than i am, certainly for example i deeply sympathise with your situation harley and greatly admire the way you have worked through it, the strength and endurance you have shown is admirable in the extreme. i am sure though that you had days where things were really getting you down and you simply wanted to voice your distress. i was simply trying to see if some people outside my immediate family and friends gave a damn about what was going on with me given that the person i'd spoken to on the phone was so dismissive and uncaring.

Hi again Kim

> i was simply trying to see if some people outside my immediate family and friends gave a damn about what was going on with me

given that so many members have wished you well on this thread and your other ongoing one surely by now you realise that quite a lot of people care :)

> given that the person i'd spoken to on the phone was so dismissive and uncaring

S/he is doing a dull and boring job most probably not very well paid either.  Fact of life, only a precious few find themselves in positions where they are delighted to take calls and genuine in their empathy with the caller - perhaps s/he was simply having a bad day also :)  Don't let the *whatsits* get you down and all that ;)

Many people don't like to discuss personal details with strangers, whether on the phone or on the internet, so it's pretty much par for the course that those who do use this type of place to vent off will get a very mixed response - not because they don't care, some perhaps because they feel what goes on behind closed doors stays there, others possibly because they've got their own worries right now which may or may not be much more serious than yours, and maybe some others still because they feel that the concerns mentioned are going to be a concern for a relatively short period of time while others have a no-end-in-sght situation which they just struggle on with.

FWIW I think you are worrying yourself far too much over what is, please God, a very temporary blip re your finances.  It will not help your condition to be constantly anxious, especially when you are in the very fortunate position of having a partner and parents who will want to ensure you make a speedy and full recovery and whats more that you TRUST THEM to help you :)

Teri

> there are people on this board who have suffered greater hardship (and not just financial) for longer than 2 months and have never whinged about it!

oldilocks i cannot tell you how deeply offended i am by this post. how dare you? you have no idea what i have been through with this illness, nor for how long it has gone on nor what it has made me suffer in a manner more than the physical.

i not only appreciate and sympathise that there are bigger problems in the world than this disease but i will be dedicating my life to trying to alleviate some of them by working in the field of human rights, but to be called a whinger for being upset after 6 years of screaming when i go to the toilet, of vomiting after nearly every meal, after writhing on the floor in agony after making the huge error of eating 1 stick of celery, after completing my degree discertation on a laptop in my hospital bed, of my boyfriend not being able to hug me many nights because of the excruciating pain in my gut let alone me be able to do that which a girlfriend wishes to, after having my stomach swollen like a drum, after vomiting so hard constantly for 2 days that all the vessels in my face burst, after pills that have made my hair fall out and pills that have made hair grow on my face, pills that i need my liver and kidney function checked every week that still don't fix things and pills that make me gain so much weight i might die during this operation i think menitioning that i might be a little stressed and upset is not totally out of line. and please be assured i am not exaggerating any of this, feel free to check with the likes of dexter or angels2 who have or know people who have this illness.

i am a caring person, i believe that the centre of our humanity is to support and care for other people, to love them and help each other, to sympathise and empathise. i don't believe i have offered anything but support to people on this board who have mentioned any emotional or physical or legal or whatever problem and you judge me for being distressed by this situation and mentioning it to people who i thought were like minded? tell me something- have you never mentioned to friends or family that you've had a bad day? well how could you-there are starving children across the world! or felt sorry for yourself when having the cold? how unfeeling, there is still rampant homophobia and sexism in the world! or been grumpy during your period?  but why? there are AIDS and cancer and MS and Parkinsons...

i apologise that this is a rant but how dare you judge me for a moments lapse in strength during this? i have friends with this illness that are far less affected than i am who dropped out of uni twice- i finished with a good grade, i barely slept for a year to accheive it so i could go and do good things. i know people who lay down at the slightest thing, where as i have fought to succeed, i have fought to simply make it to my work so do not dare judge me because you simply do not know.

but my thanks to you, i am no longer feeling down, i am feeling extremely up and extremely angry but mainly appreciative of understanding people like Liam who loves me even when i keep  him up all night vomiting, like my friends, like calmstorm and dexter who despite never having even seen me understand how i'm feeling.

> but my thanks to you, i am no longer feeling down,

There we are...some good has come from it then! 

It all sounds pretty grim, Astarte, and I think we can all see why you feel at the end of your tether sometimes but listing all you have been through does not help tackle the problems you are facing.  It also rather begs the response from those who have also had to overcome illness and difficulties to list what they have been though and so on and so on, each and everyone of us has, inevitably, someone else that has been through something worse :-)  Life deals some pretty heavy blows sometimes and all that it comes down to is dealing with it the best we can :-)

> given that so many members have wished you well on this thread and your other ongoing one surely by now you realise that quite a lot of people care :-)
>

i know and really appreciate that (for those who have posted such feelings thank you very much, i am deeply touched and it makes me feel much batter, thank you), i am however increadibly hurt and offended by the views of some who seem to feel that i have no right to mention that i am distressed about something

>> S/he is doing a dull and boring job most probably not very well paid either.  Fact of life, only a precious few find themselves in positions where they are delighted to take calls and genuine in their empathy with the caller - perhaps s/he was simply having a bad day also :-)  Don't let the *whatsits* get you down and all that

i also understand this, more than most perhaps, as i am DOING that kind of job for the moment.  and i am fine now about this as several days have passed, however at the time i was deeply hurt and worried. i have managed to clarify things now as to money and i know we will get by, but my feeling is that this has moved on from that initial complaint now

> Many people don't like to discuss personal details with strangers, whether on the phone or on the internet, so it's pretty much par for the course that those who do use this type of place to vent off will get a very mixed response - not because they don't care, some perhaps because they feel what goes on behind closed doors stays there, others possibly because they've got their own worries right now which may or may not be much more serious than yours, and maybe some others still because they feel that the concerns mentioned are going to be a concern for a relatively short period of time while others have a no-end-in-sght situation which they just struggle on with.
>

in which case those people, if they are offended by the topic i started should perhaps steer clear of it? i will avoid topics that i do not wish to take part in, its not difficult.

i also sympathise with anyone else who has worries right now, god know out in the real world i know enough people who do but i manage to be considerate and caring to each of them and if i felt i could not manage that i would steer clear of the subject.

>>because they feel that the concerns mentioned are going to be a concern for a relatively short period of time while others have a no-end-in-sght situation which they just struggle on with.

this made me laugh- relatively short period of time lol? this is a chronic relapsing, remitting condition i will have it for life. granted the money issue for now is short term but the fact that i will almost for certain have this issue again is knawing at me to, so if anyone feels that way please be assured short term it is not.

> It will not help your condition to be constantly anxious, especially when you are in the very fortunate position of having a partner and parents who will want to ensure you make a speedy and full recovery and whats more that you TRUST THEM to help you :-)
>

no it doesn't, in fact i have been really quite unwell this week. i do trust my partner and my family, as i said above i have got this sorted and have calmed down about the money, it is the attitude my concern has received from some who i had respected on this forum that has upset me.

> granted the money issue for now is short term but the fact that i will almost for certain have this issue again is knawing at me to

Every one has been at great pains to emphasise that they are sympathic to your general condition and it is just your short term financial issues that they are commenting on and that is why Teri referred to it in that way.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the purpose of your post originally was to complain about the lack of financial support from the government.  I think that every single person who has posted on this thread has expressed sympathy for your having this illness, myself included.  Incidentally, I also know people who have suffered from the same disease as you and I have seen first hand the suffering they go through.

> It all sounds pretty grim, Astarte, and I think we can all see why you feel at the end of your tether sometimes but listing all you have been through does not help tackle the problems you are facing.  It also rather begs the response from those who have also had to overcome illness and difficulties to list what they have been though and so on and so on, each and everyone of us has, inevitably, someone else that has been through something worse :-)  Life deals some pretty heavy blows sometimes and all that it comes down to is dealing with it the best we can :-)

i also forgot the heart burn and vomiting acid and the broken teeth (vomiting stomach acid has worn down my formerly beautiful teeth)

but is that what you say to everyone who has a problem? you've got cancer- well could be worse, no sympathy from me. ah, your kids got menangitis? well think of how much worse it could be... what an appaling answer to someones distress. i am stunned by you and oldilocks attitudes on this to be honest. i am not a habitual sympathy seeker, for the most part i just get on with things because what else can you do? but i am stunned by how cold the pair of you have been- are you this blunt and unpleasent with anyone who has a problem?

I thought this thread related by and large at any rate to sick pay   As in you not being sure of what your entitlements will be and what you've discovered so far not best pleasing you?

FWIW I think this is why there is such a back lash because mention has been made re not having finances towards debts, bills, etc and TBH that's real life for a lot of folks 24/7 and 365 some with sick/disabled relatives, many with young kids, etc.  The current financial climate is tough for everyone and doubtless so much worse for those on benefits, facing redundancy etc.

Tragic and awful as your symptoms sound Kim it's not appropriate IMO to expect a different financial package than anyone else based on your particular set of circumstances.  I have had family and friends dying slowly and painfully over many, many months with their immediate families torn apart and not a one of them would want me or anyone else to rhyme off the intimate details of their personal hell.

I really do feel for you and hope you enjoy a considerably brighter future than you are predicting for yourself - but remember pain, suffering, degredation, lack of finances and some of the most basic comforts that most of us take for granted are the burden of many thousands in the UK and billions across the world.   OK, blame governments, politicians, whatever but perhaps best we count our blessings for a change rather than our debts :(  I know my own blessings far outweigh any times of hardship and even any that may lie ahead!

> Incidentally, I also know people who have suffered from the same disease as you and I have seen first hand the suffering they go through.

and they bore it without at any point any single word of complaint? might i suggest that you contact the Vatican as i believe a Sainthood is in order.

incidently did you live with these people? because if you didn;t i doubt you really know or understand. thats not me suggesting you were not paying attention or anything, but no one gets it till they see it in action, help you stand after collapsing from vomiting, bring you fresh clothes and help clean you up if there has been a problem, have you barely be able to breathe from the acid. i'm saying you might not really know as most of my family didn;t till i have a flair up last christmas, they just did not realise how awful it actually was. you need to really see it to believe it.

> Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the purpose of your post originally was to complain about the lack of financial support from the government.

originally it was a bit of a rant about that yes but it rather seems to have morphed to you critisising me and me trying to defend myself.

> has expressed sympathy for you illness, myself included

lol, then accused me of whinging? very sympathetic indeed.

For goodness sake, Astarte, my post was hardly cold and unsympathetic simply because I also pointed out the futility of listing everything you have gone through when most posters are old enough to almost certainly have experienced severe illness themselves or very close family or friends.
Do you think we could stick to the financial aspects which after all is all we can possibly do to assist at this point?

>> Every one has been at great pains to emphasise that they are sympathic to your general condition and it is just your short term financial issues that they are commenting on and that is why Teri referred to it in that way.

isabel it is easy to say 'i sympathise' but apparently harder to show it. i don't know if this has been deliberate but it seems that from yourself, then later oldlocks and to a certain but far lesser extent teri that rather than sympathise you intend to critisise.

as i have said several times now i am not as concerned about the money issues any more, we will get by fine and get things sorted. i do still believe that the amount of sick pay that is given in this country is to small and i will follow the correct channels to emphasise this to those with the ability to perhaps change things.

thank you for your comments though, its certainly been interesting.

> it is easy to say 'i sympathise' but apparently harder to show it

So it would seem but that might not be for want of trying.

Astarte, I am not even going to reply to your last post directed at me, you seem to be twisting the things we have all said to suit yourself and to become personal, I can only put it down to your feeling so ill.

> lesser extent teri that rather than sympathise you intend to critisise.

Whoa, hoi and hold your horses there ;)  The intention was to be supportive to both your health and financial plights and also (clearly unsuccessfully) assist you in realising that you're far from alone and a day will dawn when things look brighter again.

No more, no less, and you'll be pleased to know that you've now officially lost my further input - I have a daughter your age and I've said nothing to you that I wouldn't say to her!  In fact, simply because I don't know you and this is a public forum I have made every effort to not be too forthright - whereas my daughter would have had a right ear bashing before now and the mother of all wake up calls.

Teri

I think what has really upset the OP is the total indifference of the DWP person she spoke to, sadly I had to work with people like this & then I had to go out & see the customers face to face.

The problem is now that few calls go to the local staff & most are @ remote centres & the person you speak to has only basis knowledge & also will be on a fixed term contract & the more calls they get through the more pay they will get, so it's a case of answering the question as quick as possible & then on to the next one. This comes to the DWP now being run by Ex Dept of Employment management & all they are interested in is hitting targets & they have no interest in their customers being treated correctly, unlike the old DSS staff who were trained to have a duty of care for the welfare for their customers(officially removed by Mrs T & never reinstated)

I'm lucky in that I still have contacts in the DWP who I know well & that have worked with me in the past & I can solicit their help unofficially.

I do wish that when people are not treated correctly they would complain(especially if given duff advice)as complaints are logged & action is taken

> OK, blame governments, politicians, whatever but perhaps best we count our blessings for a change rather than our debts :-(  I know my own blessings far outweigh any times of hardship and even any that may lie ahead!

i do count my blessings first teri, i am usually a very happy and upbeat person, i am distressed by the fact that when i mentioned that i was upset about something i was pounced upon for it. i am loved and i am cared for, i am blessed with a strong and wise group of family and friends, i am blessed by living in a place where there is at least some support available, i am blessed to be given the opportunities i have in my life, as i am sure you are, but are you saying that never ever once in your life have you complained?

> FWIW I think this is why there is such a back lash because mention has been made re not having finances towards debts, bills, etc and TBH that's real life for a lot of folks 24/7 and 365 some with sick/disabled relatives, many with young kids, etc.  The current financial climate is tough for everyone and doubtless so much worse for those on benefits, facing redundancy etc.
>

can i reiterate for the umpteenth time that I AM NOT WORRIED ABOUT HE DEBT THAT I HAVE NOW. i mentioned it on i think monday when i was panicing a bit, several days have passed and i am calmer about that now. given that i have explained my reasons for mentioning it now can it perhaps be written off as something mentioned in the heat of the moment? and not maintained for several pages?

> it's not appropriate IMO to expect a different financial package than anyone else based on your particular set of circumstances

er...where are you getting that expectation from? as its certainly not from me. i would like to see the welfare sytem improved across the board as i detailed earlier. of course i should not get any more than anyone else, what nonsence that idea would be and i absolutly did not suggest such a thing.

> have had family and friends dying slowly and painfully over many, many months with their immediate families torn apart and not a one of them would want me or anyone else to rhyme off the intimate details of their personal hell.
>

that is awful and i really feel for those people and their families and of course you who has known or knows them, i cannot imagine.

i listed some of my symptoms and what happens with them to answer oldilocks accusation of me being a whinger which she had absolutely no right to make given that i have in general been silent about my disease and to point out to her that perhaps i am entitled to have complained on this occasion and vent some of my distress. also to show people what Crohns sufferers go through- few people know or understand this relatively common disease so perhaps it will help enlighten some people. neither am i a particularly private person and if i chose not to express these things to people, to help tell them about this it would seem to me (this is just me, not saying this at all about your friends and family) that i was in some way ashamed, and why should i be? yes its down right disgusting but i didn't do anything to have this so yes, i'll bare all my yucky details and try and open some minds maybe

> I really do feel for you and hope you enjoy a considerably brighter future than you are predicting for yourself

thank you, but its pretty certainly coming back at some point but i shall enjoy the time in between, i will continue to love and have fun and enjoy my dog and my man and my friends and my nephews and the rest of my family. i will try for my psot grad and learn friench and german and possibly arabic and do everything i've always planned anyway, because your right, there are far worse things and i like challanging myself. i genuinely don't mope about this, i was feeling down for a couple of hours and its escalated somewhat from the reactions of others.

> I do wish that when people are not treated correctly they would complain(especially if given duff advice)as complaints are logged & action is taken

promise i will be MM :) i agree, its the only way things improve

>> it is easy to say 'i sympathise' but apparently harder to show it
> So it would seem but that might not be for want of trying.

in which case obviously we have both misunderstood each other. isabel i don't belive i should be getting more than anyone else, i belive that we have the facilities to care for everyone in this country, and trust me there are plenty out there who i believe should be getting a damn site more than i am. i certainly don't think the government should be paying my debts and i am sorry if it came across that way (would also be fairly pointless as most of them are to them lol :)). i really don't see the point of arguing over this any further, i know you don't wish me ill and i think things have gotten heated and been jumbled by it. so thank you for your sympathy it is appreciated.

i did say to a far lesser extent, and i do imagine i may have read things differently than they were intended so if so i apologise.

> assist you in realising that you're far from alone and a day will dawn when things look brighter again

i do absoloutly know this, don't worry about that.

> the mother of all wake up calls

i'm not sure to what? i am ill, i will be off for 2 months, i will not be getting paid much, i will have to cope. i know all of this and am doing things to sort it out. what needs waking up?

> Astarte, I am not even going to reply to your last post directed at me, you seem to be twisting the things we have all said to suit yourself and to become personal, I can only put it down to your feeling so ill

oldilocks i don't believe i twisted anything or said anything personal about you, you refered to my concerns and upset as whinging which i was deeply offended by.

i pointed out that you may not be totally aware of what the people you know with Crohns are going through as because its such a, well icky, disease its often hidden or sufferers make a joke out of it (i know i do).

i'm sick of fighting with people about this, literally. if yourself or any others feel that way about me i am sorry if i have given that impression but its not true and i know that and the people i love know that and thats the important thing for me.

I really do think this thread has gone far enough. The need to vent has been assurged and advice and sympathy have been given.

before the thread is finished can i just apolgise if i have said anything out of turn to anyone, i don't believe i have but then its been going a while now so i am sorry if i offended anyone. everyone is entitled to their opinion and so i appreciate everyones right to feel that my feelings about this are wrong.

teri particularly i am sorry if i offended you with that post, it was not my intention.

i hope we are all happy enough leaving it there.