hi iam very new to this ,was on the net looking for advice on dogs haveing pups, our vet said to read as much as we can on it and came across this web site.
i have a male 2 year and old [ marly] and a female 11 months[ robbin ]bought as family pets not for intenionly breeding.Now i hear its not advised to breed untill both dogs 2 year old and had a seprate section of the garden for each of them while Robbin was in heat [ her first heat around july 20th ] but marly got at her and now she is pregnant.We brought her in for a scan on friday and were told she has at least 4 pups in her and has about two weeks to go,the vet was happy with her health but because of her age says she might have trouble haveing them and might need a c-section but then again might not .I know some people might think iam a bad dog owner for letting this happen to my dog and belive me i feel terrable i would go mad if any thing were to happen to them,but whats done is done now and it would be great to hear from anyone who has been in this situation before,eg what should i have handy for the birth should everythig go ok?ect . .If any one has any advice to help my poor pup i would be very greatfull to here from you, thanks :-]

If you are worried about her have puppies so young she could have a hysterectomy which would also remove the problem of it happening again.

Oops, poor you and her! I would advise buying The Book of the Bitch - of course they don't all have a textbook pregnancy and whelping but it will help a lot in telling you what to expect. Looking into the distant future, if you don't intend to breed again you might want to consider neutering one of them, and if you do, make sure you keep them better seperated so she can have a resting season or not. Also check out if there's any health tests you should do - I know JRs aren't KC registered, but there's bound to be something they are prone to which could be checked for! If the worst happens again, you can get an injection up to a couple of weeks after I believe to abort any forming foetuses. Hope all goes well for this time though, keep us posted!

welcome niamh ,im not going to preach to you ....whats done is now done !!!! make sure you stay with her now incase she goes early
you need a whelping box and heat for the pups (lamp or pad) make sure you have some whelpi in incase mum dont take to them with her being so young she may not know how to cope ,and you must stay with her and pups incase she tries to kill them !!!
this is going to be hard work , i have a litter at 4weeks old and i still only get 4-5 hours sleep anight so get as much rest as you an now !!!

thank you very much for your reply the vet has said she may need a c -section as her pelvic frame is quite small so unless she is able to manage on her own it would be fairer to her to do that ,i dont no but would imagen if she were ever to go into pup again there could be more complications after a c-section?!

Thank you very much for your reply ,would you please have the author for The Book of the Bitch ,i only found out about that injection last friday at the vets i didnt even know it existed and with about two weeks to go it was to late :-{ but would have only considered it because of her age and to protect her,my partner is very anti abortion....we have a large pen for the dogs in the garden only intended for haveing them in for bbqs and that and to seprate when robbin went into heat but marly hoped over it bout 4ft high came home from work to find them in with her :-[

My bitch had a c sect last year at 3 years old. She was spayed at the same time as I wouldn't want to risk putting her thru that again or risk complications due to the scar tissue. The vet did say to me that the c sect was due to a very large pup obstructing the birth canal so per se she would have had no problem normally. As you have said I dont think its worth the risk. If you have no intention of breeding then I would have her spayed at the same time as her c sect (if its needed, hopefully not)
JMHO
Angela

thank you very much for your reply , i feel so terrable i love my dogs and want nothing but he best for them there a big part of the family.Would she realy kill them purposely?,and is whelpi a brand name that i could buy from the vets ?Please excuse my ignorance this is all new to me, iam doing my best to learn more...

thank you for your kind reply no will defo have it done if c-sectin is needed would not be wort put'n her at risk .

a bitch would normally try to kill her pups if she thought there was something wrong with them, she may decide she doesnt want to feed one....so you might have to hand feed.
It is best to say with pups 24-7 for the first few wks this way you can reduce the risk of anything untoward happening.

sections can be common in some breeds and they can go on to have another healthy litter, just think of it as when women have a section the scar heals along with the tissue.
but you said your dogs are family pets you dont intend breeding, if this is the case have her spayed at the same time as the section IF she needs one.

what breed is she have you looked upto see if there is any specific complications linked to the breed?....how long you should leave her trying before taking her in to have a section?

good luck, your gonna need it!

yes whepi is milk for puppies and mum can drink it now to help with her milk ,with this being her 1st litter and being so young she may get frightend so please dont leave her alone with them !!! this is my girls 3rd and last litter and i still stay with them just incase she lays on a pup when feeding or if he falls tosleep on one of them !!! any bitch could kill her pups yes !!! so please dont leave them alone !!! not sure who wrote the book but it will be a VERY big help for you !!!
is your girl on puppy food now she will need it now untill she stops feed the pups .
joanne x

I was thinking it would be more beneficial to her to have a hysterectomy instead of going fully term and perhaps needing a section to deliver.

Thank you very much for the reply.The site wont allow me to say what breed the are i had put it in my post but it was removed i have a photo but unsure how to attach it.I looked that up and there dosent seem to be any complacatins with there breed with regards haven pups.The vet said if we feel she is haveing trouble to bring her in ...max 1-2 hours between pups...

oh no way ill leave her alone i have her on burns mother and puppy food not sure if thats just an irish brand but we bought that on advice of the vet she also told us its good to feed her scrambled egg and that milk and hunny is good after puppys are born in case glusscos levels fall {please excuse spelling :-[ }....

Thank you for your reply,They can do that ..with her in pup :-[ iam not sure that seems like iam being cruel either way and the vet only said might need the section...could that not cause the same internal problems either way??

> could that not cause the same internal problems either way??

Any operation carries a risk but then so does whelping and rearing.  The sooner in gestation it is done the better I would think as the development will be less.  If she is not rearing a litter she is not in danger of eclampsia or mastitis.

Just to add one vital thing here -if your bitch does have these pups, she MUST be kept separate from the dog for several weeks. She will not want him around her and you could end up with serious problems if they are allowed to be together.

Sorry Isabel but I think with the bitch only having a couple of weeks left that any vet in their right mind shouldn't (didnt say wouldn't) abort at such a late stage.  I am a nurse and know from what a young age a human baby can survive without extra care, so why should it be so different for dogs?

I also think that at this late stage the hormones will have kicked in ready for her to become a proud mum.  I agree she should be spayed afterwards regardless of if a c section is required or not to stop this happening again.

To niamh c, hope everything does go smoothly and hopefully (fingers and toes crossed) she will deliver normally.  I am sure you are going to have a million questions when they are born, now is the time to get in some sleep ready for the sleepless nights ahead.

Emma

Just for anyone reading this thread, as it is too late for the poster. 

If a bitch is mismated she can have an injection to stop the pregnancy or have one which will abort it up to 6 weeks into gestation, or can be spayed when found to be pregnant so avoiding this situation.

Book of the Bitch is by JM Evans & Kay White, you can find it on Amazon.

Of course this is very far from an ideal situation, and not something you would have planned, Niamh. However, can I just reassure you that I was in a similar situation 5 years ago, when the bitch we had bought at a year old - in season- and we were only allowed to have her on the strict understanding that we would not show or breed.....turned out to be already in whelp. (must have had a secret liaison with the stud dog the day or so before we collected her - he was sent on his holidays after that...) We had just over a week to prepare. She had six beautiful puppies perfectly normally, and was a superb mum. One of them is now a Hearing Dog for the Deaf. So - things can work out OK in the end. :-)

Hi, try to be positive and stay calm, dogs have been having puppies for thousands of years. She will very probably be perfectly fine, but if you are upset and panicky she will read your vibes and it will effect her.

The Book of the Bitch is very good and will tell you what to expect and your vet is on the other end of the phone, so good luck with your litter :)

>bought as family pets not for intenionly breeding

&

>i dont no but would imagen if she were ever to go into pup again there could be more complications after a c-section?!

Surely this is irrelevant as you will, no doubt, get her spayed either at time of C-section or when the vet advises?

Hi niamh,

I would also suggest that you click on search for whelping kits, we have had many posts of what you need in prepartation for a bitch whelping and it will be very helpful for you to be prepared for when the pups are whelped with all the necessary equipment,  if you go on a site like ebay you can purchase pre-prepared whelping kits.

As well as all the helpful advice at present and I'm sure to come, very importantly once the pups are in their new homes your bitch will come into season again within a couple of months (usually) so make sure that your male will not be able to get anywhere near her again, if she is not spayed in-between.

Good luck,

I would advise getting her spayed when pups are about 12 weeks (when her milk has dried up).  Remember a dog that has been castrated can still sire a litter some months after the operation.

As you found the dogs together can I ask why you did not have the potential pregnancy dealt with at the time, by injection or spaying. 

If a dog gets to an in season bitch it is almost certain they will have mated, even if you didn't witness the act.

Op has said she didn't know about that injection untill she last spoke with her vet and it was to late then.

As has already been said, whats been done has been done, there is little point in going over her mistakes, she is now aware of what she could have done, and anyone finding themselves in a similar situation having read these posts will also be better informed.  Surely the best thing now is to offer help and support for this immenent litter? She has a fantastic sounding vet who seems very supportive, but extra help here can't go amiss?

fully agree calmstorm ,im sure someone will learn from this ,but help is whats needed now :)

> Surely the best thing now is to offer help and support for this immenent litter? She has a fantastic sounding vet who seems very supportive, but extra help here can't go amiss?

Reading through this thread it seems to me the OP has been given *excellent and wide ranging advice* on what her immediate options are :)  She's been advised of options available re gestation continuing, to get in whelping supplies and the Book of the Bitch if going ahead with the litter, the possible dangers of rejecting whelps following a C-section etc, etc, etc. and neutering at a suitable time frame post whelping!

Why is it that when neutering an already pregnant bitch is mentioned there is such an uproar - particularly given the ages and circumstances here of the bitch and the OP?

> I am a nurse and know from what a young age a human baby can survive without extra care,

The laws, and indeed ethics, covering the unborn human child is very different to those of animals.  We euthanase adult animals all the time if it is to prevent suffering and find nothing unethical about it I don't se why it would be ethically different to euthanase the unborn.

Depends "how far gone" they are? and if the unborn is "viable". Not very cut and dried decision

> Depends "how far gone" they are? and if the unborn is "viable". Not very cut and dried decision

I don't understand what you mean.  If you can euthanase an adult animal why do you have to consider if they are viable?

Freds Mum

And what if the pregnancy or the act of physically whelping the litter causes such a young bitch to die?  Or where the bitch (any bitch, not the OPs) health is severely compromised whether by age, stud dog being a substantially larger breed, any temporary or permanent illness, med conditions etc?  Where are the ethics behind that?

We owe it to anyone asking for advice to put forward a clearer picture of what all options are and what we think may be best in given situations - I'd certainly rather make a decision having been warned of all the dangers rather than just that a c-section may be needed :(

You're certainly right about there being "not a very cut and dried decision"

> Or where the bitch (any bitch, not the OPs) health is severely compromised

It's not just the welfare of the bitch that should be being considered.  Ireland has a truly dreadful promiscuous dog breeding situation with about 15,000 being destroyed every year as unwanted.

Yes, I agree Isabel that is another factor for consideration but I can also understand that for many owners they are probably going to be more concerned about the immediate effects to their own dog - rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I hold my hands up as I have never bred dogs.  However, as a pet owner speaking to one who has bought the bitch as a pet I would consider what is most valuable to me?  Accidents do happen, even to experienced breeders as far as I understand so not criticising here but ...... if this was my dog I would not under any circumstances put her at risk for an unplanned litter which is just going to add to an already exploding population of dogs. 

Teri....I'm not disputing that at all. But going over old ground which has already been discussed again is pointless. The litter is to be born, they are not far off, so chastising her, or asking once again the circumstances of this mating is not productive. That has been said and done. making her feel even worse than she does may stop her asking for advice which is not what an advice forum is about?

Totally agree spaying is the way to go, or neutering the dog (and keeping him away from the bitch securly at the next season). Is it possible to spay a bitch and remove the puppies at this late stage? Are they likely to live long after being removed, is it likely to cause health problems for the bitch? Questions best left to a vet I suppose but what are the thoughts here? At least the OP does have full support of the vet, maybe if it was a viable option the vet would have suggested it. She came for help and support, does she not deserve that?

> But going over old ground which has already been discussed again is pointless.

Then why are you doing it yourself ...... 

> Is it possible to spay a bitch and remove the puppies at this late stage

Yes

> Are they likely to live long after being removed

Depends on the vet - the intention after all is not the survival of the litter

Edited to add the undernoted as I pressed post to soon :)

As to causing health problems to the bitch any procedure requiring a GA carries risk, correct care during recovery factors in too but of course there are numerous health risks in even the most carefully planned matings and whelpings ....

>She came for help and support, does she not deserve that?

And has received these :)

regards Teri

I commented on this post....As you found the dogs together can I ask why you did not have the potential pregnancy dealt with at the time, by injection or spaying.....to which you replied, and I replied to you.

>She came for help and support, does she not deserve that?

Ok, perhaps I should have said continuing advice.............

As to causing health problems to the bitch any procedure requiring a GA carries risk, correct care during recovery factors in too but of course there are numerous health risks in even the most carefully planned matings and whelpings
of course i realise this, I was wondering if it was more risky to halt the litter, rather than allow it to be born, at this late stage. 

I think we are talking culling here again, this time before birth.

hello and thank you for your reply and advice i will be sure to keepthem apart

thank you iam looking into that

iam glad to hear that ,and that all went well for you hope same will happen here

I will and thank you for your reply and iam learning so much here so really thank you every one.

thank you for your reply i will if the c-section is needed but if it isnt needed  should i not let her recover from the birth rather than adding to her stress and let her recover first

thank you for the advice iam going to search for that now

>should i not let her recover from the birth rather than adding to her stress and let her recover first

Best to spay her when the puppies are weaned and gone - at about 12 weeks after the birth. She'll be well recovered by then and hopefully not building up for her next season.

i didnt no that about the dog so thank you for that ,and i will ask the vet about that am going to bring her for a check up friday so thank you.

thank you very much for your kindness and support iam going to bring her for another check up on fri to see how she is doing she is snuggled up in her basket now havein a little snoze :-}

thank you for your reply no i wouldnt let this happen to her again it would be crule to her

Hi Niamh c,
Just scanned through your thread and was wondering what breed are your dogs. My friend had a bitch of 8 months old who escaped out of the cat flap and got pregnant she was a patterdale x stafford a little girl. When the owner saw the vet they did offer to abort the pups but my friend would not have that done, as she did not know the father or fathers to these puppies it was a worry that if she had mated with a pedigree staffie, the pups heads would be too big for the bitch to bore- strangely it turns out the father was a labrador- luckily Tia had 6 healthy pups in my friends bedroom and with me bringing them all back to my house at 3 weeks, the pups thrived and got homes. She was spayed once the pups were weened. 

The little black dog in my picture is one of the offending litter!! :)