so as you all know now i'm off for surgery later this month and will be out of action for 2 months. i will be getting sick pay(£75 a week) but don;t get anything else from my employers. So, phoned the benefits line today fully expecting them to say i'd get some incom support as well, but aparently no as i live with my partner and he works- poxy rubbish recent graduate job the same as mine. i cannot believe this, i am stunned and feel extremely let down. i am also really annoyed at the attitude of the guy on the phone who clearly just wanted me off the line. i have worked since i was 15, through school, through university and through serious illness. i am taking 2 months to get my illness fixed (ish) so i can work even more and there is very little support for me. its not like i'm skiving, i'll have a massive hole in my stomach!!

can anyone clarify if this guy was simply trying to get rid of me (and give me some hope) or if my government really simply don;t give a toss and social security is a pleasent fiction?

Social Security is a means tested system.  They have a fixed amount that the govt says you can live on and if you excede that they wont give you anything.  You may get help if you pay rent worth speaking with your local council. 

I am stiil seething about this to, my long term sick son has had me to fight for him these last 12 months or he would have been done out of £2000 benifit while the people renting my freinds house, arrived here from another country not having paid anything into our system have had money thrown at them from all directions.

> They have a fixed amount that the govt says you can live on and if you excede that they wont give you anything

ah this would be the government who spend thousands on shiny new toilets in parliment yes?

was your son in the same situation as i am re. benefits? if so how did you fight to get more?

Its just that, the amount is approx £13 a day and thats it Im afraid, plus its linked to your wages for weeks before so if you worked part time it is less than £13 a day.

not been pt since may thankfully. i am raging, its a massive drop in our incomings. i have credit cards and catalogues to pay as well as jsut live on (think i can ask for a payment break though) but its so annoying!

You may be able to get assistance with payments on rent um but I am not sure where it used to be Social Services and sick pay was via Job centre.
But if I am honest i do not hold out much hope, you may be wise to contact your bank as they may note your income drop.

thanks, will just be working all the hours possible till then i guess- trying to not get to upset as stress makes it worse and i'll be more ill

I am on incapacity benefit at the mo as I was  made unemployed due to a back injury.
Im afraid £75 is about all you can expect even if you have worked all your life up till then and paid tax, national insurance  etc and if your partner earns a certain amount of money from their job....

It sucks doesnt it...

ive been on sick for a year and Ive not had a penny help towards council tax..paying bills etc anything and i can tell you im just about on the bones of my bum,my savings have almost gone too.....my o/h's wage barely covers our bills and we are usually overdrawn each month so it sprials on and on downwards into debt....we have no money for luxuries,clothes holidays etc,and i suppose I can live without them as i dont do holidays anyway. so its not like I spend beyond my means...we litterally just pay bills
I dont even get help towards dentists pills or presrciption charges and the amount of medication im on costs me a fortune each month so i know how you feel Astarte......

I hope things go well with your op and you make a speedy recovery

thats awful. i am utterly appaled about this state of affairs- its supposed to be there to help support the people! am writing to my MP tonight, this is ludicrous.

then i'm moving to Germany or Norway, they are lands of opportunity.

i feel it is a great injustise to the people who were born to this country that somebody can come over from another country and get more help then we do.
Even when you have paid taxes and worked hard, when you do need help its just not there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i don't have any advice but I do feel for you.  It sounds like you've looked after yourself all your life and just when you need looking after, there isn't much you get in return from the country!  Yet some people seem to not work at all and get everything :(

((((hugs)))))

> i feel it is a great injustise to the people who were born to this country that somebody can come over from another country and get more help then we do.
>

No they don't.  They get the same money to subsist on as anyone else and as Astarte is finding out it is not generous and is the reason that people will strive to work and better themselves wherever possible.
I don't think you will cut much ice with your MP, Astarte, as social security was only ever intended to enable people to get by in the short term in their every day needs and was never intended to help people with things like debt commitments.  Where would it end if you did, the payments on someones Porche?  If you did not have a partner you would be able to claim more but as he is working, again he would be expected to help you along, that is what being part of a couple is about :-)

> i feel it is a great injustise to the people who were born to this country that somebody can come over from another country and get more help then we do.

Oh no they can't they either get nothing & have to exist on charity  or get basic(very basic)benefits.

I'm on Incapacity Benefit, I would love to be well enough to go out & get a job, but I doubt any employer would have me due to my age(23 months off retirement age) & what is wrong with me.

I live on my own on just over £80 a week & I have to pay all the bills etc out of this. I don't have any debt & when my Occupational pension kicks in I will be much better off, I don't get my Retirment Pension at the same time as my Occupational Pension because I was born the wrong side of April 1950. I have worked all my life & until my doctor told me I had to stop work until I had had my three operations. I had had 4 1/2 days off work in nearly 35 years(& one of those days was due to being assaulted at work & having my leg broken. I was made to go back to work the day after I had had a lighter plaster put on my leg !)

Just after I had had the first two operations I was sacked from work for being"medically inefficient", but not sick enough to get an Occupational pension based on my disablitity ! The inefficiency had been caused by the work stations we were made to work at & 6 months after I had been sacked they replaced all the work stations with ergonoically correct ones.

I'm afraid that you don't qualify for IS as you live with your partner - if you lived with your parents then it'd be a different matter - but the man on the phone was right.  You don't qualify as you're in a partnership with your OH.

Have you looked into Statutory Sick Pay?  Not sure what the proceedure is for claiming that but your employer should be able to help.

> Oh no they can't they either get nothing & have to exist on charity  or get basic(very basic)benefits.
>

And if that was not bad enough they have to cope with peoples prejudices and unfound beliefs that they are living high, wide and handsome.
By the way, I thought you were in your seventies Moonmaiden But you have only yourself to blame, the other day you said you were around in the 50s when we were talking about some experience in dogs or other.  You should have said it was looking over the edge of your pram! :-D

> I don't think you will cut much ice with your MP, Astarte, as social security was only ever intended to enable people to get by in the short term in their every day needs and was never intended to help people with things like debt commitments

the £75 a month does not even cover what i need to get by. i could have got a better job but then despite being educated, well spoken and applying for many new positions i have not got any- could it me my many absences this year? most likely.

and i know i won;t get anywhere, but who am i to whinge if i won;t actually speak out?

> No they don't.  They get the same money to subsist on as anyone else and as Astarte is finding out it is not generous and is the reason that people will strive to work and better themselves wherever possible

i actually agree with you on the issue of people coming here from abroad, i have nothing but sympathy for assylum seekers and believe we as a nation should do everything possible to aid those who have had reason to flee their homes.

what annoys me is the people who choose not to take advantage of the myriad opportunities available in this country- free education for instance- and simply choose to live of of the state without paying into it first.

it also annoys me that the government is in such thrall to business that they do not place requirements for companies to provide additional funds if they themselves cannot. not to mention the sheer incompetance of the handling of the money the receive from us in taxes- millenium dome anyone? in addition the the astonishing amount that MPs are paid and are given in expenses.

> was never intended to help people with things like debt commitments.  Where would it end if you did, the payments on someones Porche?

isabel i am not looking for the government to pay my debts for me, far from it, but nor did i ask to be made so ill i have to have a foot and a half of my bowel cut out of me. given that i have paid into the system for 9 years now it would be nice to be supported to an extent where i am not worried about keeping a roof over my head.

> If you did not have a partner you would be able to claim more but as he is working, again he would be expected to help you along, that is what being part of a couple is about

yes i am aware of that, but frankly the idea of him working 14 hour days-as he will have to to try and make up my share- is not helping with my stress level, which in turn makes me more ill.

> It sounds like you've looked after yourself all your life and just when you need looking after, there isn't much you get in return from the country!  Yet some people seem to not work at all and get everything :-(
>

exactly whats annoying me. thanks :)

thats awful moonmaiden- is there no back lash you can have on such a horrible employer?

i will be living with my parents after the op but i suppose that doesn;t count :(

i will be getting statutory sick pay, its the £75

> the £75 a month does not even cover what i need to get by

The standard rate for Statutory Sick Pay is £75.40 a week not a month

My income has dropped from over £1,000 per month to under £300 !

sorry, typo

> isabel i am not looking for the government to pay my debts for me

You did mention them :-). 
I do sympathise.  I have been through both sickness and redundancy and I know it is not easy but in my day we simply did not borrow because we always thought of these sorts of events.  I think you best bet is to not waste a stamp on your MP but spend a few writing to your catalogues etc explaining your circumstances and ask that they will leave payments frozen until you are well and working again which hopefully will be in short order :-)

> is there no back lash you can have on such a horrible employer?

Sadly no as it was the DWP themselves & they do not recognize one of my conditions as being an RSI as an employer. Problem is when they merged the DSS & The DoE into to the DWP the management & the top Civil Servants are from the DoE & they have a different attitude to staff & their welfare, if they can shed an established Civil Servant & replace them with someone acting up from a lower grade & replace that person with a Short Term Contract or temp employee then they will.

No one has bothered to contact me to see how I am & if I am coping & the management actually told the staff that I had opted for early retirement ! I wish. It disgusts me, that nearly 35 years of hard work is worth nothing @ the end of the day.

i will be getting statutory sick pay, its the £75

In that case SSP is more than IS - IS for a single adult with no dependents is £55.10 a week.

I'd strongly suggest getting in touch with your creditors now before you go in for surgery, and tell them the situation.  Offer token payments of £5.00 per month until you're back at work.  If you tell them what's happening before the payments drop or even cease you'll find they're much more amenable.

i intend to be doing both.

that is appaling, what a horrific way to treat someone.

> It disgusts me, that nearly 35 years of hard work is worth nothing @ the end of the day.

totally agree

thats what i'm going to do about them, ta for the advice though :)

> In that case SSP is more than IS - IS for a single adult with no dependents is £55.10 a week.
>

i know but i was under the impression from a variety of sources that i should be elligable for both.

> You did mention them :-)

yes i mentioned them as they are a factor in my life. i'm feeling a little stressed right now and am voicing my concerns. its not like i am a waster, i am doing four 11 hour shifts this week (at least) and am working on my one day off to try and save enough.

> but in my day we simply did not borrow because we always thought of these sorts of events.

i was supposed to anticipate being taken for surgery when i applied for university 6 years ago? i was diagnosed at christmas. if that was the case, if i was trying to avoid all debt in an attempt to dodge any issues with money later on, i would not have ended up going to university. frankly i'd have any financial hardship to have got to do that, it was totally worth it.

the suggestion that i am irresponsible for using credit is unfounded and down right hurtful.

> I don't think you will cut much ice with your MP, Astarte, as social security was only ever intended to enable people to get by in the short term in their every day needs and was never intended to help people with things like debt commitments.  Where would it end if you did, the payments on someones Porche If you did not have a partner you would be able to claim more but as he is working, again he would be expected to help you along, that is what being part of a couple is about :-)

Just for the record.....
We  dont have any catalouge debt.......we dont use them,
We dont go on holidays.......cant afford them,
We dont go out on the town drinking or socialising....im ill,rarely have a  drink and cant afford it anyway my hubby is tee total
We dont smoke.....couldnt even afford to if we  wanted to,which we dont
We dont have credit cards/store cards...again cant afford to pay for the interest on them let alone racking up debt on the never never

My o/h and I pay our mortgage coucil tax bills, and we pay into a private pension fund etc with absolutely no spare cash for emergencies like dentist visits .....Christmas is cancelled this year,cant afford it. I worked for 20 yrs and paid tax and stamp yet now when I need help  basically in a nutshell through no fault of our own we are simply existing

I was always taught if you dont have the cash to buy it outright....dont get it and I have never ever been in debt untill I was made redundant...I worry about how I will afford to still live in my house if things get much worse and the cost of living goes up any further and that doesnt help with my other illness.
I do not say im any different from other people in my situation but I didnt ask to be ill,nor did I expect to be made redundant because of it.

Incapacity benefit/sick pay  was only meant to be a stop gap for short illness in your words Isabel...what happens if you cant work again for whatever reason or are ill long term like me.This benefit doesnt rise in accordance with inflation, it isnt a lot of money either  so what are people like me supposed to live on in the meanwhile...please answer me that?

> the suggestion that i am irresponsible for using credit is unfounded and down right hurtful.

I was not intended to be hurtful but as I said, you mentioned it and it does seem to be the problem as £75 a week is quite adequate for most peoples living expenses I would think, it certainly is mine.

> i was supposed to anticipate being taken for surgery when i applied for university 6 years ago?

Not that specifically but I would not have atticipated having the injuries I suffered in an RTA but I always worked around the possibility that something might happen.  Will your student load not go on hold if you are not earning?  I don't know the extend of your credit so I cannot say if you have been irresponsible but I do think the modern culture surrounding borrowing is in general.  It was always something we were very wary of in my day, something for the direst of circumstances saving is far less stressfull 

I don't understand your question Philly?  You say you are meeting your mortgage and even paying into a private pension fund.  It is very unfortunately to find yourself not working for whatever reason, it could happen to any of us, but if we are living on tax payers money I'm not sure that we should expect to live as well as otherwise.
I'm sure MM will enlighten us but I believe there are different benefits if you are permanently disabled.
The whole social support business is very difficult because society complains if they feel they are paying too much for others but complain when they are in the same situation themselves.

> I don't understand your question Philly?

I  have never once said I begrudge anyone, be it asylum seeker or other wise, help if they need it but I just felt you were suggesting that  its our fault we must have been irrisponsible with money and now that we are off sick tough its our own fault we shouldve budgeted for such events...im simply saying I dont waste my money, I dont have debts like catalouges credit cards etc but I still struggle to pay the ordinary day to day household bills now so if  for example ,my fuel bill in winter will rise i will need to dip into my savings to pay it and so on, cos hubbys wage wont cover the extra,  untill I have nothing left....what will I do then

I'm sure it is a struggle Philly, in fact I know it is because I have been in the same situation in the past but, as you say, you have been careful not to add to this with credit worries so I don't understand why you think your situation is something I have commented on.

> £75 a week is quite adequate for most peoples living expenses I would think, it certainly is mine.
>

for rent/mortgage, council tax, food bills, dog bills, electric, telephone, clothing (believe me i am not talking excessive here- am currently wearing 3 year old sandles, 5 year old skirt and 4 year old top), and a myriad of other things? well, good for you. it doesn't cover that for me. and the fact that it does for you is not reason to judge others for it.

> Will your student load not go on hold if you are not earning? 

i don't know, i will have to find out, i had hoped not to have to do that- hence the annoyance.

> I don't know the extend of your credit so I cannot say if you have been irresponsible but I do think the modern culture surrounding borrowing is in general

well i would appreciate then if you would not foist your feeling on the subject on to me during a time where i am stressed and upset enough. i have borrowed according to my needs in the knowledge that i will be paying it back. i never received any money from family during my course and got a very small loan each year that essentially just covered rent. and even if i had borrowed aggregiously then who are you to judge that?

> The whole social support business is very difficult because society complains if they feel they are paying too much for others but complain when they are in the same situation themselves.

if this is the basis of your responces to me can i clarify that i am a big lefty and feel we should all be taxed to the hilt to pay for government services IF they provide the services they promise (hence my comment earlier about moving to norway or germany)

> but if we are living on tax payers money I'm not sure that we should expect to live as well as otherwise.
>

if we've paid in just as much as others? so pensioners should not expect to be kept well after contributing for their whole lives?

You are not alone with these expenses Astarte you have a partner. 

>Will your student load not go on hold if you are not earning? 
>i don't know, i will have to find out, i had hoped not to have to do that- hence the annoyance.

I really do think you are expecting rather a lot there from the social support offered by other tax payers :-)

> feel we should all be taxed to the hilt to pay for government services IF they provide the services they promise

I certainly believe in social support but I also think we have a social responsibility to look after ourselves and plan for things.  This is really a very recent culture to have so much on loan and credit as opposed to savings not just to buy things that we want but for a rainy day.  Why should those that continue to manage in that way pay more tax to help people that have extra expences due to interest payments and no savings? 

> if we've paid in just as much as others?

You will get the same as the others.

> if this is the basis of your responces to me

No, it wasn't it was just my observation that the balance will never be met to satisfy everybodys point of view.

> You are not alone with these expenses Astarte you have a partner.

yes, who is wonderful and will work every hour possible to ensure that things get paid however it would be nice to get to see him occasionally- given that i'm not supposed to be alone after the surgery i'll be at my parents which is not he most accessible of places. It would also be nice if he could get some free time to visit his very poorly mother who lives quite far away- he usually visits at least once a week but that will have to go on hold. she does not have anyone else btw.

i do not want him to have to do this and i feel its very unfair to expect someones partner to pick up such a massive amount of slack when they are going to be stressed as well (or are they supposed to just shrug off the worry?)

and no i am not expecting a lot from the support offered by other tax payers- i'm expecting a bit more from the system i have paid into for many years. from a system we are taught to believe will look out for us.

to clarify for you as you seem not to have got it its not the debt i have thats my chief concern, that can be put on hold more than likely and its not the biggest outlays i have each month. its the everyday practical side- we will effectively be running two households, Tio and I will be at mum and dads- as they are having money probs with my dad being unable to work (another of those terrible long term sick people- he just can't feel his hands anymore or move his neck, tsk! thing is they did plan and had full insurance-who won't pay) so i refuse to live off of them no matter how skint we are. Liam will be living at home so will need seperate food and power, plus the additional travel costs getting up to see me (£5 each way on the bus). so we have extra costs at a time when my wage is a third its usual size (if that).

i am also doing my very best to save up as much as possible in advance and making myself more ill in the progress but never mind.

> I really do think you are expecting rather a lot there from the social support offered by other tax payers

so i don;t really care that you think that, it would seem everyone else agrees that in the current financial climate that a ludicrously little sum to expect people to live off of. i should hopefully be well for maybe 5 to 10 years after this surgery and i am, as i have always been, happy to be taxed as fiercely as needs be if it pays for a system that serves the people as it should, as we are told it should. i don;t believe thats an unfair expectation.

i've made myself ill again getting upset about this so am not intending to take this discussion any further, i'm sorry you seem to think i'm an irresponsible money grabber- i assure you that i am not, i am a firm believer in liberal principles and am just deeply disappointed that i have been lied to all these years.

> and it does seem to be the problem as £75 a week is quite adequate for most peoples living expenses I would think, it certainly is mine

I bet you don't live in a rural community without a decent bus service & if there was a way I could use the bus service I couldn't afford it, not entitled to a free bus pass until 2010

You can exist on £75 a week, but that is all you can do. I'm lucky no mortgage to pay & no debt, but it ain't easy. Oddly enough I received more money when I was looking after my Dad as his 24/7 carer

> and no i am not expecting a lot from the support offered by other tax payers- i'm expecting a bit more from the system i have paid into for many years. from a system we are taught to believe will look out for us.
>

What is this "system" if it isn't the one the tax payers pay for?  It is not a pot that you have put your money in to take out, that would be a savings account. 

>I really do think you are expecting rather a lot there from the social support offered by other tax payers
>so i don;t really care that you think that, it would seem everyone else agrees that in the current financial climate that a ludicrously little sum to expect people to live off of.

The quote you have taken there of mine was regarding paying off the capital of your student loan. I am not sure that everyone else would agree that was appropriate expenditure of tax payers money.
I do sympathise with your predicament.  I will be tough, I know that I have been there, but by and large peoples financial arrangements above the subsistance payment that a social security system is designed for, is their own responsibility. We take on commitments, homes, pets, loans etc with that knowledge in mind.

> You can exist on £75 a week, but that is all you can do.

I didn't say I would live anything but frugally on it.

>> You can exist on £75 a week, but that is all you can do.

That's all you're expected to do. Anything more is voluntary (been there, got the teeshirts). Mind you, last year hubby was expected to live on £59 a week, so £75 is almost luxurious!

> That's all you're expected to do.

So it's ok for people to be penalised for being ill ?

Sorry but I disagree, not for me especially as I've got less than two years to go before I officially retire, but for people like my cousin. He has had a triple heart bypass, has psoriasis, chronic arthritis & is a type 1 diabetic. He worked until he was made redundant for the same firm from 16 for over 25 years,despite not being totally well. We've had to fight for everything for him, including a care package.

Now several years down the line his has enough money to lead a decent life, it has been a long hard road & it shouldn't be that way.

I know of someone(now deceased) who conned the system for years & used his DLA to keep horses ! We never had enough evidence to proof it, but he & his wife knew that we knew & laughed all the way to the bank

>I know of someone(now deceased) who conned the system for years & used his DLA to keep horses ! We never had enough evidence to proof it, but he & his wife knew that we knew & laughed all the way to the bank

And those are the people who mean that honest folk can only get a pittance.

i do not want him to have to do this and i feel its very unfair to expect someones partner to pick up such a massive amount of slack when they are going to be stressed as well (or are they supposed to just shrug off the worry?)

I personally don't think it is unfair for a partner to have to "pick up such a massive amount of slack" - it is part of being in a partnership. Living off benefits is not easy as we found over the last few years whilst my OH was losing his battle with a terminal illness. We went from two well paid full time jobs, children growing up and a better standard of living on the horizon to surviving on benefits and 10 hours part time employment for me. My normal full time day hours I exchanged for working from 6:30 - 8:30 am, so getting up at 5:00 to  walk the dogs, going to work, rushing home so our daughter, who cared for her dad whilst I was working, could go off to uni each day (she forewent going away to uni so she could be at home to help care for her dad) and spending the rest of the day and a lot of the night providing 24 hour care for a person who was bedridden and needed constant care.

It was hard work for all our family, it was "unfair" that my husband had to suffer from such a dreadful illness, it was a cause of more stress than I have ever experienced before or ever wish to again but he was my husband, my children's father and my life partner and I would not have expected to do anything other than care for him and deal with the hand that we had been dealt. Partners share the good and the bad - my husband never envisaged that a part of  my life would be spent providing round the clock care for him but, since he was no longer able to care for himself I couldn't envisage not caring for him. Our finances were decimated along with our lives but just how much harder would it have been without the support of benefits?

I actually consider myself to be lucky to live in a country where those who are in great need are able to have some financial support and, just as importantly, access to a free health service that does it's best to not only treat those who are ill but to provide some of the best palliative care for those unfortunate people whose illnesses are beyond treatment. If we had lived in a country where there was no financial support and we had to pay for health care then we would have sunk without trace several years ago. Benefits are hard to live off, they provide for a very basic existence but they are so much better than nothing at all.

Just had to wiz down to the bottom of the list and through personal knowledge tell you that the people in question, in friends flat, have got lots more than my son.  They got their rent arrears paid no question, over and above the rent rebate allowance.  Got seen medicaly right away, not life threatening, and now because the lady of the house has had a baby they are in debt once more and the govt is bailing them out with more rent money.  Honestly you have to see it to believe it.

Ref my son, no it was housing benifit that he was done out of. He was too ill to deal with his affairs and I had just become very ill with PPS and didnt realise how bad things were for him.  He missed a couple of deadlines with his housing benifit info and they stopped it.  They would not give him a special needs person to help, the forgein people got one straight away, and before we knew it all my savings were gone helping him and the council flatly refused to sort out his claim.  Later we got Shelter involved and the minister and guess what - the council were in the wrong.

Sorry I cant be more help to the original poster and I sincerly hope you get better quickly after your opp

And before I am accused of being biased, I helped those people get thier benifit also so no I dont hate them I do despair at the system we are forced to live with.

I'm not sure if it is bias on their part either if they got your sons case wrong but managed to get it right for someone else.  As you were not there when they were interviewed or assessed you have no idea what they are entitled to, other than what you have heard second hand or summised but I doubt they got more than they were entitled to. 
You may despair at the system that took time or made mistakes to sort out your sons problems but I don't think you should begrudge someone else for filling in all the forms and getting what they need as MM says if they are foreign nationals their entitlements will not amount to much anyway.

i feel its unfair that people on low wage get help with both rent and council tax but if you own your home-even if negarive equity, you get nothing!