Hi, I'm new to the exchange and have been reading blogs and messages all morning.  Can someone give me the best methods or recommend the better trainers.  I'm sort of thinking it's best to take a bit from one and a bit from another, and apply what works best for the individual dogs, but there is so much controversy out there.  What do you think?

I think... I wouldn't touch Cesar Millan's methods with a bargepole. :-)  Jean Donaldson is quite a good one IMO - she has written "The Culture Clash" and various other books. :-) I have become a big fan of clicker training - has worked really nicely on my pointer - but can't think of any books off the top of my head I'm afraid.

Thanks for that.  I'm thinking of looking more into the Culture Clash.  But so many people over here think highly of Millan - even the lecturers at Tafe where I am studying Companion Animal Services.  From what I have seen (actually very little) there does seem to be a lot of negativity with Millan's approaches.  Yet I have not heard anything negative about Ian Dunbar's methods.  Can anyone out there argue with Ian Dunbar's methods?
Cheers

Ceasar has intuitive wisdom and its not something you can teach.  You have to understand that what you see is him training hopless cases who may be put down if nothing is done.  Also he is living in a totaly different culture to us as are the dogs, are you UK?.  He has some sound advice but as with every thing you need to use your intuitive wisdom to deal with the real thing. There is no better training that getting hands on with a few dogs and watching a real live trainer working.  Try to find one in your area you will learn more from that than books and you may find which books they advocate.

Edited to say - I see you are in Australia so geographicaly I dont know how easy it is for you to work with a trainer :(

I would argue with his 'intuitive wisdon' I'm afraid - everything he advises is based on out-of-date theory and methods, of which pack theory has been debunked as inaccurate.  The premises he uses for training dogs are not based on reality - wolves (which he uses as the basis for explaining dog behaviour, which is an unsound approach in itself) do not behave in the way he describes them as behaving so right from that foundation, his methods will be skewed.

That, and he uses punishment and bullying to the extreme, which is totally unecessary in dog training (and very dangerous in some instances, such as his beloved alpha roll).  I do not believe he is the last chance for the majority of dogs he sees - I know of one woman who has rehabilitated a GSD from severe aggression (bitten many times, including her several times) to a loving, cuddly dog using nothing but positive methods.

Personally, I would go with Jean Donaldson (Culture Clash), Pamela Dennison (The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, fantastic book), anything by Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor.

I have to agree with Nikita I'm afraid. I think CM has done dogs a bad turn frankly :(

A good site here explains some of the more professional views on his work and why:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm (the latter includes frequently asked questions, such as "I've never seen him hurt a dog").

I'd go with Dunbar, Gwen Bailey, Dee Ganley, Donaldson, Nicole Wilde, Leslie McDEvitt, Karen Pryor, James O'Heare, Burch and Bailey, Karen Overall, Brenda Aloff, Terry Ryan, Morgan Spector, Jane Killion, Victoria Stilwell (second series onwards) etc (kind of assuming you are in the US so have tailored my list to hopefully suit).

Most if not all reputable  behavioural and training organisations over here do not support CM methods.

Edited: just seen you are in Oz! :) Not sure what you want to do eventually, but I know James O Heare does some good courses, not sure if they can be done distance. A good distance course would be better than a not so good one close to you IMHO :)

Hey I didnt say i advocated what Ceaser does only that he knows how to do it.  Im sure I dont know how he feels what he does but there is no denying he has saved some no hope cases from the gallows. 

Each to their own ofcourse.  My oh is an acredited dog trainer so I look to him for advice and my advice still stands get hands on with someone who's training works and let them teach you. What's in a name? it's results that count after all (and the way you get there) if I could save a dog from death by re training im sure I would try everything rather than kill him :)

I recently read cesar's way by cesar milan and thought it was a good read.  I haven't seen him in action but liked the way his interaction with the dogs was written about and many of the repetitive advice posts on here echoed what he says which made me wonder why so many people dislike him.  He advocates plenty of exercise for dogs and not killing them with affection which all seems fair enough to me.  Granted I haven't seen him train dogs but as far as the book goes I could find little to discredit him.

IMO Ceaser does NOT know "how to do it".  He gets results by bullying and itimidation. You can shape behaviour through positive-based training techniques or negative training techniques.  For any dog - but especially for agressive or highly dominant dogs - using a negative approach is the road to disaster. 

>Granted I haven't seen him train dogs but as far as the book goes I could find little to discredit him.

There are videos on YouTube of him strangling a bitch into unconsciousness to make it 'behave' ...

That I will certainly look at that Jeangenie, I know your a resposible dog person :).  Just out of interest, how many of us train the flat to brush our dogs.  Its not natural and they dont like it but they learn to accept it then relax into it. I thought this harsh when I first saw it and pls this isnt about CM

>how many of us train the flat to brush our dogs.  Its not natural and they dont like it but they learn to accept it then relax into it.

Mine do it naturally when they lie in front of the fire!

echo that but they dont on the table - not right away anyhow lol

If they're trained to do it by the fire when they're relaxed it's easier to train them to do it on the vet's table or your own grooming table. :)

I think the OP has the right idea in taking bits from different trainers and seeing what suits the individual dog. I would however say it's best NOT to take a huge amount from any one TV trainer, you don't see the whole training session, just tiny edited bits that fit into the programme time. You can't do better than finding a good reward based training class to go to.

Hey I didnt say i advocated what Ceaser does only that he knows how to do it.  Im sure I dont know how he feels what he does but there is no denying he has saved some no hope cases from the gallows. 

My post wasn't all directed at you Echo, sorry it probably looked as if it was. I tend to sometimes post in reply to one and then continue on with my thoughts on the same post :)

> Ceasar has intuitive wisdom and its not something you can teach.

Cesar Millan is a bully and bullies dogs until they either do as he says or fight back - there are vids on Youtube of him 'working' with a bulldog where he pins it by the neck until its tongue starts to go purple and where it turns round and bites him eventually.... Actions speak louder than words - some of what he says may be good - eg exercise etc - but that does not mean it all is... to me a mix if godd and extremely bad is very dangerous. Watching him, his actions speak louder than words, as does the body language of the dogs he 'trains'. :-(  I have just started reading 'Dogs' by Raymond Coppinger - some interesting stuff in there re the evolution of the species, and also have just got 'The Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training' - which haven't had time to read but having flicked it looks good. :-)

I have to say that to me there are fates worse than death, and I personally would rather have my dog put to sleep than use CMs methods. I am also of the opinion that if positive training doesn't work - neither will his methods. :-)

> He advocates plenty of exercise for dogs and not killing them with affection which all seems fair enough to me.  Granted I haven't seen him train dogs but as far as the book goes I could find little to discredit him.

i don;t think anyone would disagree with some of the points CM makes (particularly about excersise levels and the need for 'energy') but when you watch him he is at best a bit rough and at worst you could say barbaric. not to mention advocating things like the alpha roll- i'd hate to see him try that on a 'red zone' dog the size of my boy or even on one like your staff! i've not read his stuff, and maybe without the interference of editors he'd be less controversial, but from whats on the tv he certainly raises eyebrows.

> not to mention advocating things like the alpha roll- i'd hate to see him try that on a 'red zone' dog the size of my boy or even on one like your staff! i've not read his stuff, and maybe without the interference of editors he'd be less controversial, but from whats on the tv he certainly raises eyebrows.

you make a good point there about the interference of editors as there is a bit in the book where he talks about the alpha roll and it is only very briefly mentioned (thank goodness for indexes!).  he doesn't dwell on it and it is certainly not a large part of his teaching.  This would suggest that like most tv programmes only the juicy bits get shown.  Advocating that people exercise their dogs and look after them well does not make good tv.  Anyway, below is what cm has to say about the alpha roll.

"I have been criticised by many in the positive-only school of behaviour, and called inhumane and barbaric, for using this technique.  I respect those critics opinions, and agree that this technique is appropriate only for certain cases, and to be used by experienced dog handlers.  If you feel, as they do, that this method is crule, then you should regard my advice with that in mind." cesar milan

he then goes on to talk about submission and cautions people to never forcibly put a dog on it's back as the consequences are likely to be serious.  I edited his quote slightly as all words are now spelt in English rather than american english.

he does seem less oot then in his written work then. its good that he clarifies things.

(btw- the spelling chages are not something i believe any brit would object to :))

I like Ian Dunbar.

It'll come as no surprises Im championing my fellow Norskmaiden Turid Rugaas :-D
Her DVD's (albeit alot less sleek than Hollywood millan are more substance than showman ;) ) on talking terms with dogs are extremely well thought of by those using positive method training :)

> he does seem less oot then in his written work then. its good that he clarifies things.

From what I remember of CM's book 'Cesar's Way' he says that the methods in the show should never be called for if dogs are raised properly with reward-based training in the first place :)

problem is how many people who watch the show read the book?

> problem is how many people who watch the show read the book?

very true - people see the show & think that the answer to everything is to slam thier dog on the floor with an alpha roll :( :(

> My post wasn't all directed at you Echo, sorry it probably looked as if it was. I tend to sometimes post in reply to one and then continue on with my thoughts on the same post 

Likewise Echo - mine was not directed at you :-)

> It'll come as no surprises Im championing my fellow Norskmaiden [url=http://www.canis.no/rugaas/articles.php" rel=nofollow]Turid Rugaas[/url] :-D

Ah!  That's who I forgot to add, thanks HG :-)