Obviously hip scores have a link to the line etc and careful breeding.. but my bitch's mum had hips of 5,5 and her dad had 4,6.. which isnt bad but isnt great...
I was told that if you over exersise a dog when young, joints will loosen when growing which results in high hip scores..
We bought our baby as a pet, and as an inexperienced owner we got her straight out there and exersised her alot - probably way too much.

Thing is she has 3,3 hips and 0 elbows... so is this just a one off case or does more exersise when younger help with joints? ( she is a lab by the way)

We had a bitch with parents of average scores, limited exercise as a youngster and hip score in the 70's.

Now researching back though the pedigree, afew generations back there's a high hip score and a relative (not in pedigree) has a high hip score aswell.

Read into it what you like! :-)

I had a Bernese Mountain Dog with horrendous hip scores, although his parents and siblings scores were all below the breed average. We got him when he was 8 month old from his first owner who was a breeder of another breed and she had ruined him in these 8 months. She fed him rubbish, when we bought him he was overweight and bloated, already showing signs of problems with his hips and shoulders (could not go up a few steps) but we knew no better at the time (20 years ago and our first large breed). IMO he hadn't been exercised much but he had obviously been badly fed and I personally think that keeping their weight reasonable and allowing them to build muscle gradually is more important. My current bernese has good hips as did her parents and while we didn't go mad restricting her exercise, we didn't let her go mad either, but more importantly we keep an eye on her weight at all times.

I used to live in a flat and couldn't block off the stairs. My pup used to tear up and down stairs Her hip score was 2/5! I believe that if there is a problem there then too much exercise will only make it worse, but if there isn't a problem then it won't make a difference. The problem is knowing which you have :-)

> but my bitch's mum had hips of 5,5 and her dad had 4,6.. which isnt bad but isnt great...
>

Actually those are very good scores, woudl be graded as Good under other systems..

If you look at the OFA site http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html and compare to their gradings any score under 18 is in the Normal range, 18 -25 would be borderline and over 25 dysplastic.

I would be happy with them scores too, well actually Lana and Carina have those exact scores!!

Like every illness in life they are multi-factorial (ehh is that spelt right).  Carina has a hipscore of 6/4 and she was jumping about 6 foot in the air from a very young age and always has done, she was scored at the age of 5 and as you can tell the jumping didn't do her any harm but I still restrict exercise, not so that they aren't running around etc. but so that they are doing a sensible amount.

Yeh i am very happy with those scores.. i was just comparing abbie (who was exersised alot from a young age) to her mum (who was not let out until 6 months)... and abbie has better hip scores, even though I have always been told by lab owners (show stock) that more exersise when young means a worse hip score... and it hasnt turned out that way..

funny isnt it :)

I'm a firm believer that a puppy needs good strong muscles to support their growing body.
Obviously not over the top exersising or rigid lead walks but fair amount of running around off lead is good for them.
Many breeders who I know get very good scores with most of their stock they have kept at home and these puppies definately get more than the 5 minutes/month of a puppys age(or what ever the rule going around is) which seems to be what so many people recommend!
Actually I had never heard that rule until I came to UK!
I have always been advised to let puppy run off lead on a soft ground and to play with other dogs (not too rough ones though) to give them nice muscle tone as this will support the joints and to avoid jumping up to furniture and running up stairs.
Lot of it comes from their genes and I also believe feeding has lot to do with how the hips turn out.

> I also believe feeding has lot to do with how the hips turn out.

In what way?  What foods can contribute to good/bad hips?  I am hoping to get a large breed for my next dog and hadn't given any consideration to 'hip food'.

I think it's more quantity then ingredients that makes the difference (other than avoiding calcium supplements etc). An overweight puppy, just  like an overweight adult, puts more strain on its joints than it should.

> An overweight puppy, just  like an overweight adult, puts more strain on its joints than it should

And also, if there is an existing joint injury or condition, you should keep a close eye on dogs weight and maybe even keep it slightly lighter.

aaah, I see.  I was thinking it meant ingredients rather than volume of food.

The care with exercise means formal on lead exercise which is usually on hard surfaces, this can damage joints. 

Most people in the UK live in towns with small gardens these days so pups get little chance of the gentle exercise and are more likely to be taken pavement pounding, which needs to be limited.

I quite agree that pups should be able to take normal muscle and stamina forming exercise. 

It is a known fact that a well muscled dog will show fewer or no signs of HD than a dog with a better score this is why a dogs movement/soundness cannot be used to determine Hip status.

Agree with that, Dakko regularly scaled walls and fences yet proved to have a poor score when tested. No symptoms until he was about 10. I also meant amount rather than ingredients although what the woman was feeding our 1st bernese was ultra cheap and full of broken crisps etc :-o . We always try to keep ours on the lean side now, harder than you think :-D

> We always try to keep ours on the lean side now, harder than you think :-D

We're trying to do this with Louis. With breaking his front leg and all of his weight carried in front, putting strain on his weakened joint its what we have to do. Luckily he is quite fussy and hardly ever wants to finish his meal so he isn't fussed that his meals are slightly smaller. He always wants what we've got though :-D

Yes, keeping the puppy lean is very important and with large breeds you can "spoil" the puppy feeding wrong kind of food (often too strong) and making the pup put on weight too quickly, the bones can not keep up with the growth...
I have seen few pups of my own breed going totally wrong when they have been fed normal puppy food that has been "too strong"(done this myself with my first Leo!)...
This can make their legs "bend"(queen anne legs at front and similar in-turning at the back) this on its own might not make good hips/elbows bad but if the puppy walks incorrectly it is likely the joint will be used in incorrect way too and this can lead to damage.
Over the years I have also noticed pups putting on weight too quickly have been much more likely to get elbow problems,most of the puppys weight being at the front.

I have friends who had 2 dogs that were allowed to run & run around forests as pups and both came back with hip scores totalling 6. They then bought a pup to show and confined his exercise, his hip score came back in the 20's!

Although it is thought that the inherited likelihood of bad joints is the most likely cause of joint problems in the adult dog other factors can and do have an effect.

Over exercise, injury or trauma to the joint, tendons or muscles, severe illness, poor diet, lack of exercise, early neutering, over supplementation, if fact, almost any thing that happens to a dog between its conception till it is fully grown, about 2 to 3 years, can and does effect the way the dogs joints fit together, (hip/elbow score) or the amount of deposit of calcium on or in the joint caused by damage to the moving surfaces of the joint.

At least that is my understanding, we should do all we can to breed good joints and hope life will not cause too much damage. Badly formed joints are predisposed to becoming further damaged by life, well-formed joints less so if at all.

I completely agree, I exersised abs from a young age and she is really healthy and strong - you should see the size of the muscles on her back legs. Problem is judges say that in the ring she is too lean and leggy... but she moves the best out of all of them..

yeh because she can move without having a heart attack!!

I dont know what to do cause i have a 7 week old pup that i bred that I am hoping to show.. and if I exersise her alot I am worried that she'll turn out leggy.. but I want to keep her healthy..

I'd say health first and showing second, dogs like us do differ is shape and size and it could be that your dog is of the athletic type and exercised or not may well have still had the same physique. just less muscle.

Nova I agree. We were very careful buying our Border from good working parents, feed him to the agreed amount and the breeders advice. He has never been overweight. BUT.he was exercised and walked well, he wanted to do more and my OH took him out more and used a ball chucker v. early. result OCD at 9 months and tablets for the rest of his natural.
We still exercise daily and long walks but no ball chucker, more swimming and the vet thinks that stopping and turning sharply possibly caused the problem. He was never really a jumper, as we have a big 4X4 and he was lifted in and out. The spaniel jumps in and out but Jake stands there until you lift him, we do not allow him to jump out either, he seems ok now.
The damage we feel, was by us over exercising and working a too young dog. My spaniel being more a sniffer never attempted half of what the Border did, he was more content sniffing his way around.
Not knowing anything about hip scores ect we brought a ISDS dog, the spaniel was checked for hips ect but I could not tell a good score from a bad one, I can now!!
But I think had we known you can over exercise a dog we would not have damaged his joint as we feel we have with much regret.