> It's nothing to do with a 'closed shop' the type of people you can expect here is obvious from the name of the site

and that type is reponsible people who own pedigree dogs and want to breed from them YES ? 
well that counts me in eh !
Its awfull that people are now being put in to "classes" and if others dont think you are up to that standard ( whether they know anything about you or not) you get shot down in flames

> on one well know puppy selling  internet site at the moment there are 19 litters of airdale pups for sale
> and i would not think they are the easiest of dogs to home

And how many king c spaniels are there or KC Spaniels.
How do you think they would not be the easiest dogs to home have you ever had one ?

I am not Brainless but with a breed such as hers where numbers are low then new bloodlines are very important to maintain a wide enough  gene pool and avoid too much inbreeding. A slight cosmetic fault is less worrying than a construction or a health problem as it is not going to impact on a pups quality of life and so I assume if it occured the pups would  be carefully pet homed with endorsements not for breeding.

> And how many king c spaniels are there or KC Spaniels.

A responsible Cavelier King Charles breeder has already stated on this thread they they will not be breeding for the forseeable future due to the state of things in thier breed at present. However is it a case of just because someone else does everyone can ?
How easy are Airedales to sell do you have experience of this?

> moonmaiden
> What are you on about .both dogs are KC registered and the dogs owner will sign the forms.

I am not MM but I can answer that one. If you have seen the forms that need to be signed and sent to the Kennel Club after the mating for registration purposes, the stud dog owner has to sign to say they have witnessed their stud mating your bitch - they have to be present.

> How do you think they would not be the easiest dogs to home have you ever had one ?

Airedales, as I am sure you know, are the largest terrier breed but with the temperament of a terrier - thy are not for the faint hearted, and they are not for everyone. And I don't need to own one to know that - I have met plenty. :-) And in your remote corner of Scotland, are there enough suitable homes?

> How easy are Airedales to sell do you have experience of this?

Having never sold any but when looking for one it was a nightmare.
I was on the net and phone for months before I found my dogs breeder,then was put on her list.
I only got my dog as the breeder decided they were not going to sell to another person who was on their list.
I hab to travel to Blackburn to get her and by good luck we at that time had relations nearby that we stayed with as it took us over 7 hours to get there.
There is allways a risk when trying to sell pups but if you advertise early and vet buyers etc I dont consider it to be a problem.

> I am not MM but I can answer that one. If you have seen the forms that need to be signed and sent to the Kennel Club after the mating for registration purposes, the stud dog owner has to sign to say they have witnessed their stud mating your bitch - they have to be presant

and do we need to take pictures of us  both standing there during a tie ?
Come on !! you are not telling me that both parties are allways there at a mating I am sure people who leave their bitches with breeders get the owner to sign the papers.
Any way whats the problem its not going to affect you is it ,me getting pups KC registered ?
How do the KC prove that both parties are present ? If the papers are signed they have to take their word for it.
If she does have pups they will be the dog I have here at the moment as I only have him and nobody elses dog.
Maybe I should video it ??

> Airedales, as I am sure you know, are the largest terrier breed but with the temperament of a terrier - thy are not for the faint hearted, and they are not for everyone. And I don't need to own one to know that - I have met plenty. :-) And in your remote corner of Scotland, are there enough suitable homes?

I am sorry I dont agree with you on that one you need to have had one not just met one.
Who said they will all be staying in scotland.
They may be terriers but they are like any other breed as in its how they are treated and dicplined as a pup as to how they turn out .A lhaso apsa can be a nippy dog if not diciplined ( sorry cant spell )
People will be veted before they go to homes anyway.

> A slight cosmetic fault

Could I ask what this cosmetic fault is

To dogs a babe

An excellent post, very well worded, genuinely interesting and important observations made.

Thank you,
best wishes Teri :)

> My dogs pedigree as I said before is very good she has very good blood lines with over 30 champions on her papers and as has the dog they are both up to breed standard and a good match so where is the problem.
>

This is not, as far as I can see, a good way to decide if a particular stud is suitable for a particular bitch. The number of champions is neither here or there, what has happened to the idea that you learn what you can about genetics and then choose a dog that will complement and improve on the bitch? To me it would not matter if the dog had no champions in his background as an ancestry of typey, fit dogs may well produce a better stud but even then you need to know how the ancestry of the stud and that of the bitch co-relate and/or complement or correct faults in the bitch.

Showing an animal is the easier way to comprehend the faults or areas of an animal that need to be improved upon, to do so in isolation is difficult if not impossible. Showing your breeding stock is not an elitist activity it is an educational tool.

I am sure the same applies to working dogs but I would be stepping outside my field of experience to make comment on working dogs.

And how many king c spaniels are there or KC Spaniels.
How do you think they would not be the easiest dogs to home have you ever had one ?

and  most of the KC spaniels for sale are from pet breeders who see them as a quick buck
most big dogs today are harder to home than the smaller ones
people have less space and more need to work, larger dogs take more exercise and food,
in my gundog breed, some people are being left with 6mth pups they can not sell due to unsuitable homes advailable
in my toy breed , they are again  being bred mostly  by pet people and far too many are ending up in rescue
my last litter was  10 years ago, i only breed if i want a new puppy for me
my one bitch never had a litter yet did well in the ring, but i was not in position to keep another dog
its called responsible breeding,
and any future litters i may have will be endorsed not to be bred from
far too many people are breeding with total ignorance , any idiot can put two dogs together and produce pups

> I'm sure you know I get as upset as you over these things but please don't blaspheme

On topic then Isabel?
Apologies to those that my words my have caused offence to, but let's keep it on topic hey?

d'ya know I've just looked through the rest of this thread and for 2 pages there are no more comments other than this one from you Isabel?  Should I feel victimised?  Cos I sure as heck do - NOT ONCE have I sworn or 'blasphemed' on this forum, and I get you telling me off for it.. jeez
Apologies as I have now gone off topic, but really....humph

> to charlie72
> what are the statistics for people breeding show dogs ?

Those figures are just potentialy from 2 dogs,it doesn't matter what kind they are.These statistics however are from dogs that are in rescue and where they come from..

Of the 52.9 million dogs who live in the United States, approximately 2.9 million of them are killed in shelters annually (AVMA, 1998, and AHA, 1998). Where do all these dogs come from? Puppy mills churn out 20% of the total number of dogs whelped yearly, and roughly 1% are the results of feral dogs reproducing on their own. Less than 12% come from breeders who actively test their stock in conformation, obedience, and field trials.Backyard breeders, or people who breed their dogs without testing and certifying their stock, produce nearly 67% of all the dogs born annually in this country (Gardner, 1994)1. You will not pay more for a pet quality puppy from a reputable breeder than one from a backyard breeder. Unfortunately, there are backyard breeders everywhere: in kennel clubs, advertising in the newspaper, and also in dog publications. The difference is that the ethical breeder has spent time and effort developing the healthiest, soundest, and most representative of the breed possible.


   

>both dogs are KC registered and the dogs owner will sign the forms.

The stud dog's owner needs to witness the mating to be able to confirm that it took place. There is no such requirement on the form for the bitch's owner, so bitches can (although I'd never do it) be left at the stud's premises, but not the other way around.

>And how many king c spaniels are there or KC Spaniels.

There are very few King Charles spaniels around - they're a very uncommon breed. The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, however, is a different matter - the BYB and puppy farmers' dream, and as a result it's becoming very difficult to find a healthy, well-bred one.

I think we are all basically banging our heads on a brick wall about this.  The poster is going to mate her bitch whatever we write.  She says one thing but then says another.   She asked for advice, it was given, she doesn't want to hear it. 

There's never been any mention of pre-bookings for puppies and if the poster lives in such a remote area that she cannot travel to use a stud dog, how do her 200 grooming clients get to her?    Ditto looking for a stud dog, why advertise 'stud wanted' on Stud Your Dog, if that wasn't for convenience?   I will look with interest at the Scottish newspapers in 17 weeks time to see how much advertising is being undertaken to shift a litter of 8+ week old Airedale pups.

I own a rarer gundog breed and I wouldn't mate a bitch unless I had at LEAST 6 bookings and I live in a  lot more accessible part of Scotland.

Well Airedales are my breed and I feel really sad reading this and seeing photos of some of the studs on that website that don't look like the best examples of the breed by any means.

My puppy has Champions in her pedigree, plenty, but so what?  Yes, she was sold to us as show potential and is doing moderately well in the show ring, but we keep in touch with the others siblings, and there are others which although still gorgeous healthy pups, are not as good examples and hence why they went to pet homes with endorsements.

We will never breed from our bitch however well she does.  We are brand new to showing, never mind the whole field of breeding and whelping.  There are plenty of excellent Airedales breeders out there who know what they are doing and consistently breed good typy dogs, many for 20 years +, and after ensuring health tests are undertaken and making sure the dam and sire are as good a match as possible.

We are involved with our local and national breed club and know many of the top breeders through this and through our foray into showing, and even they ARE having trouble selling pups or are putting off matings.  I know of someone who recently had a pet litter and they had 4 unsold until around 12 weeks and I think they still have one or two now that they haven't found a home for.

I really don't think the majority people looking for a pet dog of any breed from an unknown breeder will be willing to travel miles for it.  Yes, we travelled a fair way for our puppy, including fortnightly visits to the litter, but only after lots of research and talking to various breeders and knowing we wanted a pup with show potential from someone was could assess as well as you can with 8 week old pups, one that would suit us. 

I love Dales and have had 3 (currently have 2), but as others have said, they aren't the easiest of dogs and do require more training than many breeds, and they are big and boisterous and use their mouths a LOT as pups, but are actually very sensitive too.  Sadly I know how many end up going through rescue through involvement with our regional breed club and a breed rescue (2 of ours have been rescues).  In the last week, 4 have come up for rescue.

I do occasionally look at the "e" site and it alwayas depresses me.  I have also noticed some Labradales etc appearing there recently which really makes my heart sink.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

> What will inevitably happen is that true custodians of our beloved breeds will cut back severely on plans to produce what the dog world needs most - happy, healthy, well adjusted dogs which are excellent representatives of their breeds and will make wonderful family pets first and foremost.  In the meantime the money grabbing and selfish will ensure supplies are readily available of sickly, poorly socialised and untypical examples of these self same breeds

This has been happening with my breed for years.  Breeders have been protective and registrations have fallen year on year, yet we get more dogs through rescue from other sources mainly than ever.

I had a potential puppy buyer who had bought their last one from a puppy outlet and had lost her due to ill health tell me that if proper breeders bred more and were easier to find then they wouldn't need to go to a puppy supermarket!!!  I didn't know what to say.

> Its not only caused by people breeding their pets .
> why must people who  breed to show or breed on a larger scale think it is ok for them to do it and not pet owners there are lots of experienced and responsible ones arround . They may have dogs dogs that are just as good with good breed standard traits and good blood lines. The only difference being they may not show their dogs or offer them for stud as much.

The vast majority of dogs in rescue are there because people bred their pets,the facts are there in black and white.If your dog is of breeding quality with great lines then why not do things properly and show her?

As was pointed out earlier there is an Airedale Club of Scotland

I can't understand why the OP didn't contact them to find an experienced stud dog, rather than going through a dodgy website. The club, and the stud dog owner would then be in a position to help with selling puppies.

I really worry about the fate of these babies. Just having space and good intentions isn't enough :(

> I had a potential puppy buyer who had bought their last one from a puppy outlet and had lost her due to ill health tell me that if proper breeders bred more and were easier to find then they wouldn't need to go to a puppy supermarket!!! I didn't know what to say.

This is an on-going problem - I know Rottweiler breeders have the same dilemma. Perhaps what is needed is a real publicity drive by the KC.We all know the 'see a puppy with its mother' - maybe there should be a real campaign with a slogan like 'only buy a puppy from health-tested parents'.
Perhaps some good might come out of the recent TV programme after all!

> I will have proof of paternity I can manage to get a few forms signed as the dogs owner and myself are working together to do things correctly

The stud dog owner should not sign the forms if they have not witnessed the mating, they cannot honestly say that their dog mated your bitch QED. You are not doing things correctly if the stud dog owner isn't present at the mating.

There are breeders on here you have travelled a lot further than 140 miles to breed their bitches & I do mean a lot more think 1,000s of miles.

> moonmaiden
> What are you on about .both dogs are KC registered and the dogs owner will sign the forms.

Someone else has already replied to you, but I will add this if the dog's owner signs to say their dog has mated your bitch they will be breaking the KC rules, they will not have seen their dog mate your bitch & so saying that they have is a lie

What I said was that the stud dog owner signing the litter form without witnessing the mating, is not only foolish, but also falsifying the KC records. It has been proved by DNA testing that this has happened(ended up with the "Breeder"being banned by the KC-happened abroad with only the Breeder being in the UK)

So you kow lots of people who "borrow"the stud & then get the stud dog owner to falsify the KC forms ???  They are obviously people like yourself that don't mind breaking KC rules

It is not bizarre is is breaking KC rules

In Response to charlie72
Of the 52.9 million dogs who live in the United States, approximately 2.9 million of them are killed in shelters annually

we arent in america though are we, plus america is an absolutely huge country so they obviously will have more dogs than us

In Response to Moonmaiden
The stud dog owner should not sign the forms if they have not witnessed the mating, they cannot honestly say that their dog mated your bitch QED. You are not doing things correctly if the stud dog owner isn't present at the mating.

the stud dog owner cant honestly say that their dog mated your bitch? then why would you go to all the hassell of going to the stud only to go else where and use another? hmmmm. or have the dog stay at yours or have the dog visit you? your point seems very bizarre to me

Lilacbabe

You quite rightly pointed out that all of us, who regard ourselves as ethical, caring, responsible breeders, had to start somewhere.  But, although I can understand your desire to breed something for yourself, surely you can see that you are not going about this in the right way?  No-one is questioning that you love and care for your dog or that you would do your best to rear a litter and place the puppies  BUT to advertise for a stud dog is not the way to go! Rather than that you should do your own research - which would include talking to your breeder and/or owner of your bitch's sire, depending on how experienced they are, going to the shows to show your girl (to get an honest and unbiased opinion of her), asking other breeders to look at your girl, looking at dogs, deciding on what you like, looking at individual stud dogs and carefully looking at their progeny, talking to breeders about what would best suit your bitch, etc etc.

You quite rightly say that we haven't seen your bitch or the dog that's with you, but he has not been chosen for the right reasons, has he?  I am involved mainly with Rhodesian Ridgebacks and I cannot think of any responsible breeders who I know, who would send their dog off to stay with someone else.  And I have never left one of my girls with someone else to be mated - nor have my friends.  I wouldn't dream of doing that!  I've travelled all over the country to my chosen stud dogs - their location has never come into the equation when I've decided which would be the best dog for my girls.  It's been a pain to travel, stay away from home (which involves taking time off work, finding a carer for my other dogs etc) but we are supposed to be breeding for the betterment of our chosen breeds, not just putting 2 convenient dogs together.

You genuinely sound like someone who cares for her dog and I'm delighted that both dog and bitch are hipscored - but I truly wish that you could see that you are misguided on this occasion. Perhaps you could rethink this mating and do some more research?  And, as several posters have already pointed out, homing pups is not easy at the moment, even for known breeders.  I wouldn't be rushing into breeding a litter - I would want AT LEAST 6 firm bookings, probably more.  My first litter had 15 puppies!!

>then why would you go to all the hassell of going to the stud only to go else where and use another? hmmmm. or have the dog stay at yours or have the dog visit you? your point seems very bizarre to me

Picture the scenario; a bitch is mismated by the owner's (not very good) dog. Bitch owner borrows quality stud for a couple of days, doesn't bother with the hassle of mating them, sends dog back and registers litter with the 'good' stud dog's details.

Fraud.

That's why the honest stud owner has to witness the mating to be able to sign the registration form.

You are missing the point Hayley.

The onus is on the stud dog owner who must sign the form to say that they have witnessed the mating.

How much trouble the owner of the bitch has gone to in order to have the dog stay with her is actually irrelevant; the fact that she doesn't own a male dog herself is irrelevant. It is a KC rule that the owner of the stud dog should witness the mating. If he hasn't he can't legitimately sign the form.

What I said was that the stud dog owner signing the litter form without witnessing the mating, is not only foolish, but also falsifying the KC records. It has been proved by DNA testing that this has happened(ended up with the "Breeder"being banned by the KC-happened abroad with only the Breeder being in the UK)

Until the powers that be regulate identification of breeding stock and the puppies produced the stud dog owner being there at the time of mating and viewing the mating is irrelevant except for honesty on the kc form. The breeder (as in bitch owner) is the one that is needed to be trusted, as although X dog may have mated the bitch and form duely signed, there is nothing stopping the breeder using a dog of their own to mate the bitch in an attempt to ensure pregnancy.

> In Response to charlie72
> Of the 52.9 million dogs who live in the United States, approximately 2.9 million of them are killed in shelters annually
>
> we arent in america though are we, plus america is an absolutely huge country so they obviously will have more dogs than us

True,they are for the states but if anything the percentages for byb dogs bred here would be higher  as we have less puppy mills and dogs sold in pet stores.There is no reason to believe the statistics(percentages not actual numbers) would be any different here though unless you have some to say otherwise? The point is that nearly 70% of the dogs bred are from back yard breeders so it follows that the same proportion would be in rescue.For every well bred (health tested,parents shown,breeder knowledgable) litter out there how many more badly bred ones do you think there are?

DNA profiling is  actually something The Airedale Health Fund is promoting among  responsible. breeders

Having never sold any but when looking for one it was a nightmare.
I was on the net and phone for months before I found my dogs breeder,then was put on her list.
A few months ago there were ads in the dog papers every week from Airedale breeders with unsold pups. They ranged in age from 5 months to 13 months and there were entire litters unsold.

Just speaking generally, not breed specific, as i thought others were with 'the stud dog owner needing to be present at the time of mating' which is for every breed.

Come on !! you are not telling me that both parties are allways there at a mating I am sure people who leave their bitches with breeders get the owner to sign the papers.

I have NEVER heard of any responsible breeder doing this. What happens is that you take your bitch TO the stud, the bitch owner and stud owner each help out with the mating (which involves a back breaking half an hour or so when they have to be held still during the tie to prevent injuries -sometimes this requires three people, but at the very LEAST one er dog), then two days later the bitch owner comes back for a second mating, and then the stud owner signs the papers.

And yes, you travel to the stud dog twice regardless of how many miles are involved.

DNA profiling is actually something The Airedale Health Fund is promoting among responsible breeders

Something I agree should be done regardless of the situation with the stud dog.

I think a few people on here are being a little unfair, why get so far off the point.  Just because the OP hasnt had airedales for long doesnt mean they havent done their research.  And the OP obviously has breed smaller dogs so knows the general stuff but wanted tips for bigger dogs.  How do we know that the OP isnt after one particular trait from the stud dogs line not just an overall type.  A champion on a pedigree means nothing and should not be used as a basis to breed.  And if no dogs that didnt do well in the ring werent breed the gene pool would reduce and wins in the ring are no guarantee that quality pups will be produced.  I know of two sisters and one did well in the ring, produced terrible pups but another from a line who had done no decent winning for two generations produce 2 champions.

I think people should try to offer advice and not judge people as some people are making champdogs a place where people dont want to ask a question for fear of everyone having a go.

Emma

Come on !! you are not telling me that both parties are allways there at a mating I am sure people who leave their bitches with breeders get the owner to sign the papers.

That may or not be so, but what I think is being said is if the bitch is left at the stud dog owners premises (which I gather does happen in top circles) the stud dog owner does see the mating, because they oversee it. So they can actually sign the document to say their stud dog has actually mated the bitch. I think this is the point in question, that the stud dog owner actually witnesses the mating and signs the kc document as such, which they can't do if they have not witnessed it. Even if they are happy to accept it has happened, I suppose it could be said that if they havent witnessed the mating they are fradulently signing the paperwork? Bit heavy I know :) but I think this is what some posters here are suggesting ;)

> Just because the OP hasnt had airedales for long doesnt mean they havent done their research

The bitch is now four years old and was bought as a puppy. Since the OP apparently believes that all bitches should have a litter,that is four years in which to join a breed club, get to know other owners and breeders, search out a stud dog (preferably experienced) and, despite her home being a million miles from anywhere, perhaps even get to a show or two so that her bitch could be assessed by others.

> How do we know that the OP isnt after one particular trait from the stud dogs line not just an overall type.

I think it's because the OP advertised for a stud dog on a "find a stud" internet site. That doesn't mean he isn't the perfect match for her but you can see why that, coupled with saying he was being used because he was close to home, leads people to assume he wasn't picked solely for his complimentary traits.

> NOT ONCE have I sworn or 'blasphemed'

You perhaps do not know that you are doing it.  I will PM you.

> Should I feel victimised?

I don't see why.  Just because I am not posting does not mean I am not reading as may many other Christians of which the majority of the population of this country are.
You are probably right, this is off topic but then your post appeared on this thread.  I did post with a smile because I realise a lot of people, particularly young people do not appreciate what blaspheming is or realise how offensive it is to some people so it doesn't hurt to remind them but I will PM you in future.

> they ARE having trouble selling pups

I rather suspected that would be the case and you make a good point about the willingness of people to travel a long way when they are set on obtaining a puppy from a source that they are confident is a good one.  Heading into the Scottish hinterlands for an unknown quantity, particularly when other litters have surplus much closer to home, would be a completely different matter. 

> Come on !! you are not telling me that both parties are allways there at a mating I am sure people who leave their bitches with breeders get the owner to sign the papers.

So you have just posted on the Net that you are planning to falsify the registration documents. I wish w still had a rolleyes smiley.

> I am sorry I dont agree with you on that one you need to have had one not just met one.

What makes you say that? And in that case how much experience do you have of them? Have you had more than one? If not how do you know that the one you've got is typical of the breed? There is more to it than just owning one - and you can learn about dogs temperaments before owning them - that is the point of breed research and lerning and experiencing breeds. I am by no means an expert in airedales - I am just making the point that it is not always necessary to own a breed of dog to learn about their characteristics and behaviours.

> Who said they will all be staying in scotland.

You said you were in such a remote area you were unable to travel to mate your bitch with a stud elsewhere than locally - in that case I imagined the same difficulty would apply to puppy buyers coming to get pups, especially if they can more easily be had elsewhere.

> How do we know that the OP isnt after one particular trait from the stud dogs line not just an overall type. 

I think they would have mentioned that by now :-) 
We have here a dearth of dogs within the geographic area the OP consider possible with her other commitments, the search conducted, at least in part, on a very unselective web site and a dog found that the owner is willing to let travel to an unknown novice bitch owner something no other poster has ever come across before.  What do you think the odds are that this is the hard sought, perfect match for one particular trait?
Sorry, I see Lori has already made the same point :-)

a bitch is mismated by the owner's (not very good) dog

yes this could happen if the owner also had a dog but if they didnt then i really dont see how this situation could come about

That's why the honest stud owner has to witness the mating to be able to sign the registration form

im also not sure that every one who uses a dog at stud would even know about this rule so honesty wouldnt come into it

> im also not sure that every one who uses a dog at stud would even know about this rule so honesty wouldnt come into it

I knew about it.  I would be surprised if anyone who has ever had their bitch mated and checked over the forms before sending them in for registration of the litter would not know about it.  I can't imagine someone putting their dog to stud would not at some point look at what they are being asked to sign their name to.

The point is that nearly 70% of the dogs bred are from back yard breeders so it follows that the same proportion would be in rescue.For every well bred (health tested,parents shown,breeder knowledgable) litter out there how many more badly bred ones do you think there are?

and whos to say that  health tested, parents shown, breeder knowledgable pups dont end up in rescue centres? just because some one is a good breeder doesnt mean that there pups are any different to the ones other people breed, you need to accept that everyone who breeds contributes to the problem and as for health tested shown etc etc, what about the lady who has that king or cavalier king charles spaniel? hes a champ and has been used at stud after having the test and it showing that he has that health issue?

But the health tested,reponsibly bred ones only make up a tiny proportion of all the dogs born so it figures they'd make up a much smaller proportion of those in rescue.Of course every dog born contributes to the numbers but the proportion of dogs bred by BYB is far greater so it figures they make up a far greater proportion of the ones in rescue.I'm realy not sure why you are disputing this fact?
Responsible breeding means taking responsibility,which means taking back any dogs rather than them ending up in rescue.