> Well anyone would have to have a heart of stone to not think puppies were lovely

I completely agree with you Liz!
The problem is however once they grow up.. and Im afraid once these adorable little bundles get to teen years it all changes and 'Hearts of stone' do Im afraid come into it!!
Liz- this is not my opinion its hard cold happening now fact.

Ive have mentioned before my Breed club is on its Knees!! cant cope!! (and many others Staffies etc...) Now yes, my breed is slightly different in that a teenage Siberian is a whole different entity to most other breeds.. Shred your house like a plague of locusts and dig your garden like channel tunnel drilling equiptment ;)

Liz- Just look on the 'e' pups for sale sites..right now... Just how many teenage and or 7 month up ward dogs of my breed have suddenly become available to rehome (really? all the owners are suddenly moving house and unable to take dog????) Ie: once they have lost the 'Disney sled dog' charm :(

This is where the buck stops.. you'd have a heart of stone to not see that..no?

A maiden bitch and first time stud dog

I'm not directly addressing the original post, or the actual dogs involved, but I'm curious about the mechanics:

Is it expected that to put an experienced stud with a maiden bitch or vice versa that one 'teaches' the other?  Does it also therefore make it 'safer' for both? 

> Well anyone would have to have a heart of stone to not think puppies were lovely, so guilty as charged your honour.
>

Nothing ah about puppies produced Willy nilly with a doubtful future just to fulfil the needs of people who will move onto the next fad in 6 months or a year, and pups with no back-up from their breeders, and rescue having to pick up the pieces :(

You only need to look at the rescue forums in USA and Australia to see the number of designer mutts now in rescue after the novelty has worn off or the dogs have turned out not as thought.

>Is it expected that to put an experienced stud with a maiden bitch or vice versa that one 'teaches' the other?  Does it also therefore make it 'safer' for both?

A maiden (of either gender) can find the process a bit unnerving - bitches can find penetration and (especially) the tie uncomfortable, panic and try to pull away, which can damage both dog and bitch. An inexperienced dog is less likely to be able to guage whether the bitch is truly ready and attempt to mate nevertheless, which can also hurt the bitch and cause her to turn on him. Far better that one is experienced, as well as at least one of the handlers!

in reply to huskyGal, 

i just had a look on one site there are 9 purebred dogs of your breed advertised for sale, another point to make is finding suitable, responsible, knowledgeable homes isnt that easy and its far too easy for dog owners to rid themselves of their responsibilities

Just one litter can result in..

2 Dogs - Father and Mother 2
6 puppies, 3 females 6 + 2 parents = 8 Dogs 1st Year
3 x 6 puppies = 18, 9 females 8 + 18 = 26 Dogs 2nd Year
9 x 6 puppies = 54, 27 females 26 + 54 = 80 Dogs 3rd Year
27 x 6 puppies = 162, 81 females 80 + 162 = 242 Dogs 4th Year
81 x 6 puppies = 486, 243 females 242 + 486 = 728 Dogs 5th Year
243 x 6 puppies = 1458, 729 females 728 + 1458 = 2186 Dogs 6th Year
729 x 6 puppies = 4374, 2187 females 2186 + 4374 = 6560 Dogs 7th Year
2187 x 6 puppies = 13122, 6561 females 6560 + 13122 = 19682 Dogs 8th Year
6561 x 6 puppies = 39366, 19683 females 19682 + 39366 = 59048 Dogs 9th Year
19683 x 6 puppies = 118098, 59049 females 59048 + 118098 = 177146 Dogs 10th Year

If every one thought their bitch or dog  should have "just one litter" ,that is the bigger picture :(

Jeangenie

Thank you for your clear answer - and quick too!

in reply to charlie72

thats a good point to make however that is presuming that each bitch produced is being bred from which isnt always the case

>Well anyone would have to have a heart of stone to not think puppies were lovely

I'm afraid that's exactly what puppy farmers rely on - that people will think "Aawww, sweeeeet!" and have to have one. Ker-ching goes the till ...

> thats a good point to make however that is presuming that each bitch produced is being bred from which isnt always the case

Fortunatly not but if every dog owner had the attitude that their  bitch "should have a litter"  it would be,which was my point ;)

tessies tracey ...my dogs is a gun dog and a very good 1 and sire to , thats the reason for my litter and yes thay all got homes !!! and very good ones at that !
i do hope your not calling me ignorant just because i dont agree with alot of you here?
like you lot i to want to keep her blood line going and keep good working dogs out there to do the job there breed for!!
and yes not all will make it ,just like showing ,not all will make it !!!!
I ALSO HAVE A VERY GOOD MENTOR !!!!! he is very well known in this field , and has helped me alot and gone throu every thing with me BUT I JOINED HERE hoping to find ppl that was willing to help also ,i can ring my mentor day and night and he would be here like a shot but sometimes its good to get others views too , :) now i dont know much about lines but my mentor does and he spent a very long time studying the right dog for her , he trains ...works....and wins...with his dogs and im hoping my litter will follow in suit .

>I didn't realise it was a "closed shop" and that there were any criteria you had to fulfill

It's nothing to do with a 'closed shop' the type of people you can expect here is obvious from the name of the site ;)

I wasn't going to post on this but I really want to know, why would anyone join a website called CHAMPDOGS to promote and condone the breeding of crossbreed dogs??  aren't there enough loveable crossbreeds needing homes in rescues?

I have to admit, when I first discovered the forum I was attracted to it because of the ethical nature of many of the people who post on here and their outstanding attitude to health testing, kind training methods and understanding of dogs in general.

and i also need to say ....im there for the life of EVERY DOG THAT MY BICTH AS HAD ... we had a pup back last year ,owners got devorced ,i will be there for them just like you all would be :)

The time has come .... the Husky said
To become part of the solution and not the problem?

I *think* this might help quell accusations of elitism and closed doors from both sides of the fence?

Sadly, HG, I think that that time has come and gone :(

Too often these days it appears to me that posters come here asking for advice on situations that they have already embarked upon - and when asked to clarify the situation or are advised that it would have been better to have started elsewhere, they become aggressive/defensive (rather like some of our dogs).

Although posters seek advice, when the advice given by people who have shed-loads of experience is not what the OP wishes to hear, it is not taken - and the experienced breeders who would be happy to be internet mentors are castigated as elitist/hard-nosed/holier-than-thous/snobs.  And the inexperienced "fluffies" fly to the defence of the ignorant, reinforcing bad habits.

And the tragedy is that the dogs are always the ones to suffer.

> Too often these days it appears to me that posters come here asking for advice on situations that they have already embarked upon

How right you are Lokis mum.
Over the years I've noticed that many people (not just here in cyberspace but in real life too), ask for advice to back up what they have already decided. If one disagrees, they keep asking around until they find the 'right' answer.

It has arrived Margot but hopefully not yet fully 'come and gone'. 

Personally I've never had an interest in joining other general forums for the simple reason that anybody trying to offer well intentioned advice and steer things in the right direction for all concerned seems to be in the minority (read devil incarnate ).  CD always had a greater number of more sensible, reputable, straight talking and above all caring breeders to outweigh the minority of BYB and money chasing cross breed fanciers but it's not an exclusive membership so we can only work with what we've got available.

Because of that it gets undesirables joining and pontificating about the joys of cute and cuddly puppies, the great experience it is for their kids to watch nature take course (yeah right!), how they're fulfilling an important 'supply and demand' niche for every kind of 'poo' and doodle etc or the current latest craze :(

All we can do is continue to try and educate where ever and when ever possible and, God willing, some will listen and rethink their plans.

It's depressing and frustrating but about all that is available to us really.

> It's depressing and frustrating but about all that is available to us really.

Teri,

I, along with many others, have had a very trying couple of weeks post 'BBC prog' with many anxious owners and breeders clammering for advice about the future of our beloved breeds. I've had two calls today alone from people wanting pups " guaranteed not to have any inherited conditions". I hope to have dissuaded both from buying a puppy until more strides are made in the understanding of our problems. I wont be having any more puppies until further notice even though this will potentially take one of my lovliest bitches past breeding age.
I burst into tears today when one caller told me she was probably buying a puppy from "completely untested parents but they weren't show dogs just pets so are bound to be healthier."

Then I read the OP's thread title and then see where she got her 'stud' from ... and I thought ...THAT'S IT......I've had enough, my efforts are a drop in the ocean...what's the point? Where the hell do we go from here?

I completely understand your feelings tooolz - my breed wasn't featured but hey, maybe more luck than anything else.  What will inevitably happen is that true custodians of our beloved breeds will cut back severely on plans to produce what the dog world needs most - happy, healthy, well adjusted dogs which are excellent representatives of their breeds and will make wonderful family pets first and foremost.  In the meantime the money grabbing and selfish will ensure supplies are readily available of sickly, poorly socialised and untypical examples of these self same breeds.

It's very depressing but only if those of us who care most passionately about doing the right things keep actively involved, even if only as mentors, have we a hope of making a difference.

I can well imagine your breed is in a very dark place just now - I really hope things can be turned around but it needs you and others like you to help do that kiddo ;)

Why are you making these remarks when you do not know either dog owner or bitch owner,I expext you think about the money  as you have mentioned it! and I am not  inexperienced with breeding Ihave bred litters fron small dogs just needed a bit of advice on a larger breed and they happen to be maiden dogs. perhaps I should have used an experienced dog but I am not and all I have had is criticism.
Not all dog owners who want to breed with their dogs are irisponsible that is why I joined this site !

yes I do know about the dogs in my bitches pedigree as I have done my research .the full storyHow can you doubt when you have not seen either dogs pedigree again  making up your mind before knowing the full story.

Who is this in reply to?

yes thay can lilacbabe because you havt won cruffs ;) sorry but the way you all go off is crazy , no 1 on here can judge any1 and thats what your doing !!!

Its not only caused by people breeding their pets .
why must people who  breed to show or breed on a larger scale think it is ok for them to do it and not pet owners there are lots of experienced and responsible ones arround . They may have dogs dogs that are just as good with good breed standard traits and good blood lines. The only difference being they may not show their dogs or offer them for stud as much.

I'm sure each individual breed rescue would be delighted to show you the pedigree dogs they  have looking for homes that have come from people who decided they wanted to breed 'one litter' including your breed, whitelily, too.  English springer rescue always has dogs looking for homes and thats not counting the ESS that go through normal dog pounds & animal charities too.

My dogs are first & foremost pets as are my pedigree cats, if I chose to show or work them & they are successful then that's bonus.   I have a Show Champion bitch I've never mated because I couldn't find a dog out there that met all the requirements I wanted in a stud dog so I thought rather I don't have a litter from her than one I'm not 100% happy with. 

It always amazes me how people can find 'studs' at the drop of a hat that suit their bitches perfectly and yet here's me having bred 3 litters & a Sh.Ch. bitch in each litter, who struggles to find something to compliment mine................ 

yes i know ...like i said im here for ALL the dogs ive breed and always will be !!! just like ppl here that show and breed ,i will aways take them back!!

it took along time to find my stud ...not at a drop of a hat !

to freelancer
thanks for your good luck
\it is not a red herring though that I could not travel I do live in a remote part of scotland and I did not have a choice.
The only thing I asked for was advice on maiden dogs ,nobody asked about the pedigrees and made up their minds it was a risky mating.
I researched and have thought this mating over for a few Years now and would not go ahead if I did not think it would be successful

to charlie72
what are the statistics for people breeding show dogs ?

Me to lilly he was not just a convenient stud that I happened to come across

are you meaning you thought I was going to breed a cross breed ?
I joined the site as I have a pedigree dog like yourself.
And my intentions are not unethical

thank you so much

I'm replying to Teri's post but it's a general observation too

In the grand scheme of things I've been a member of CD for about 5 minutes.  I joined for the > greater number of more sensible, reputable, straight talking and above all caring breeders that you talk about.

I've read all the posts on all the subjects over the last couple of months, particularly during the summer holidays when I've had more time than usual. I watched both dog programmes that have got people talking and was curious to read the CD responses.  I've dipped a toe in giving advice, where it directly relates to something I have experience of with my own dogs, and I've asked a few questions.  I wouldn't dream of offering advice or opinion on subjects I know nothing about.

But as an 'observer' or 'outsider' as it were, it is difficult to tell who is who on here.
*One reason for this is that some of you refer to each other by real name rather than user name so it can be difficult to identify who is talking to whom.  I've seen this lead to confusion and annoyance when an OP perhaps has thought someone is talking to them when it turns out they meant another poster entirely.
* After a period of time by reading everything it's possible to find members that you think have real experience but so often you find in another thread somewhere else that this is their first dog, first litter, first stud etc and this can make you unsure about all their responses.
*This particular thread has looped off into a them and us feeling but again, as an observer, I'm not too sure who is them, and who is us.  Real names has also made it a bit difficult to follow
*Semantics - reading through the very long threads I see time and time again it's full of people actually agreeing with one another in the main, but choosing different language to express it.  This often seems to lead to one person taking offence where none was intended and it can get personal or petty

I really do want to be hear from the   > more sensible, reputable, straight talking and above all caring breeders
but when half of you think that describes you; and the other half think that describes them; it's a bit of a struggle to find the wood for the trees, believe me I am trying.

In the main I don't think you are losing the war, there are a whole bunch of us just reading and learning.  I love to read the calm reasoned approach but you may lose the battle when many great threads get a bit woolly at the end and the good guys retreat to their corner to congratulate themselves and the OP has gone off in huff.  You guys know who you are - you tirelessly repeat the same good advice with, in the main, a bit of grace.  Take some of the feedback you've been getting lately (high horse, elitist, sitting on a cloud etc) and just rethink the way you phrase your advice and opinion.  We are listening; and many will quietly rethink their plans but I'll bet it's not the one or two posters you argue with but the 10 or 15 silent readers, who'll never dare go public with their questions!! 

Keep going - we're rooting for you...

Excellent post, dogsababe :)
I think it is frustrating when people come on here and ask the same questions time and again, often about matings that are ill-thought out, and then get upset when the advice they are given is not what they wanted - but it is important to remember that lots of people will read the posts who might have wanted to ask the same question but were afraid of looking silly. If just one or two of those people stop and re-think their plans, something has been achieved.

moonmaiden
What are you on about .both dogs are KC registered and the dogs owner will sign the forms.
And you are just being rediculous now; why would I buy in pups to pass off as my own. what satisfaction would I get from that.
Perhaps other pedigree breeders do that you seem to know all about it and I know people who have had stud dogs come to them ,mated successfully and had the pups  registered. I am going to do the right things dont you worry yourself over that.
If I fail to get a mating I will not be dissapointed I will perhaps try he again next season. I want my own dogs pups not someone elses dogs pups
This is all getting totaly bizare.

in reply to liz-r
Dog is 5  and bitch is 4
thanks

i am not Ignorant Yes things that were said I maybe did not want to hear as the answers were not to the question I asked in the first place.
The dogs are not being left to mate on their own How dare you say I am cruel and uncaring.
Were you experienced the first time you bred a  litter? and read my posts I have bred dogs before But small ones Just wanted advice onlarge breeds who happen to be first timers !!

to fillis
Sound like you want this site to be exclusive to. I am not ignoring advice just getting a bit pd off with so called experts who think pet owners are totally ignorant and irrisponsible and do not take the dogs welfare etc in to consideration.
I probably treat my dogs with more respect than some owners be it pet ,breeder or ones who show their dogs.

To terri
we are responsible do not say we are not.
Just because you may have a few more years experience who are you to judge others

We certainly seem to be getting more and more of the "ooh puppies, how lovely" brigade than we've ever had

.Do you not think pups are ooh lovley ?
what are they then ?

to charlie72
I am not breeding a crossbreed they are the same breedand both pedigree KC registered

toozl
that programme has done so much damage to the caring breeders who test and i think will push puppy buyers to the pet people who just put two dogs together with not a clue, but talk the talk.
i can,t say i blame you not having any more pups for a while
i,m hearing this from people in other breeds too, considering the credit crunch  at the moment and finding good homes for pups
more and more pet owners seem to think breeding is a easy way to make cash
i am horrifed that a stud dogs owner would let someone take his dog home to mate their bitch and as for using that site to find a stud dog
words fail me
and as for not being able to travel to find a sutiable stud just reads  breeding for money to me.
the internet puppy sales sites are full of pet people selling puppies
i wish these people would go to a rescue centre and see the results of all this pet breeding
god knows where we go from here
its getting beyond now

I would feel that there would be no support coming back from Stud dog owner and no knowledge either as well as lack of proof of paternity.  

I will have proof of paternity I can manage to get a few forms signed as the dogs owner and myself are working together to do things correctly

This site has very definitely changed over recent months.

Changed as in perhaps you want it to be elite and have no common old pet owners putting in their points of view ??
Well get it changed and make it exclusive if that is the road you want to go down.
People do get offended when they are being called irrisponsible , ignorant,cruel when all they wanted was a bit of advice.
Some of you do come accross as being superior and that you are the only ones who have the ability to be concerned for the  welfare of their dogs.
Well sorry but you are not the only ones who are capable of doing that and I am one of them !!!!

My dogs pedigree as I said before is very good she has very good blood lines with over 30 champions on her papers and as has the dog they are both up to breed standard and a good match so where is the problem.

on one well know puppy selling  internet site at the moment there are 19 litters of airdale pups for sale
and i would not think they are the easiest of dogs to home

30 champions does not an exceptional pedigree make.

I now it dosent but you all also contradict yourselves by talking about good blood lines.
Surley if there are champions in the pedigree there must be some good blood lines somewhere and if bred with a dog of good breed standards ,health etc It cant be all bad.

quote
I have a bitch here who has nearly all champions in her five genration pedigree, yet she really is not a show dog as she has a cosmetic fault.  With care I will breed from her because she carries new bloodlines and we are a numerically small breed, but if she produces her fault to any marked degree then I will not advance that line of breeding further.

So you will breed from her because ? There were champions in her pedigree ? why breed from her if she has a fault even though she has new blood lines there must be some degree of it showing up again and you are willing to risk that ?
And when you do breed from her and there are pups with her fault , what will you do with these pups ?
Am interested not being sarcastic just want to know

Quote

Nor has the fact that she is a dog groomer who lives on a farm any bearing on whether she should breed a litter. (By the way, how do the 200 customers get to this place that is so out of the way that the stud has to stay there?)   

The town is remote but has a population of 6000 aprox and with other towns further a field also using my services (which I run from premises in the town not at home ) I am good at my job ,people come to me as I have been recomended to them by my regulars  and my customer list is still growing. Have a look at my profile then look on google earth you will then see how remote I am and how the stud has come to stay.
By the way he is doing fine !
So because you show or are a dog trainer gives you the upper hand on dog breeding ?

>all help and advice appreciated

Advice has been freely given in line with peoples experiences, their own breeding ethics and with the dogs welfare at heart. However it hasn't been what was expected or what was wanted but that doesn't make it wrong advice or elitist and following the advice would not be detrimental to the dogs concerned.