Hi, 

Just joined your forum, whilst searching in vain for some advice re a 7-wk old border collie puppy that we purchased from what appears to be a reputable breeder.  Got her home on Sunday, was fine, within 24h a little tummy upset (vomit/diarrhoea) , off food and drink - initially just though that this was due to a change in food/water/environment etc.  No improvement over night, so off to vets and she was treated for "an infection"; admitted put on IV fluids and given Antibiotics (Synulox).  Sent home that evening, initially ate and then worsened over night (vomit/diarrhoea and this time vomiting live Toxocariasis worms).  Re-admitted to vets and given the same treatment but this time admitted over night, but for this had to go to an emergency clinic (as it would appear that vet clinics in North Birmingham no longer offer over night hospitalisation).  Back to regular vets for day treatment.  Still no improvment.  So far, this has left us with a bill for nearly £700!  The dog was sold with "free 4 week insurance" however we just found out that this doesn't kick in for the first two weeks.  Have contacted the breeder, and he has oiffered to refund the puppy, but, as she only has a 50/50 chance at the moment I am struggling to come to terms with a) the potential loss of a puppy and b) the associated costs that apparently we are liable for!  The diagnosis is that this is linked to worms, something she must have had before we got her, so what I am asking is; would it be unreasonable to expect the breeder to be at least partially liable for some of these costs?  Is there any advice, both as a consumer and a puppy owner?

Thanks for reading and hopefully advising.

Very distressed Jackie

I am so sorry to hear of this awful situation.

I think in the circumstances if the breeder is willing to take back the puppy and refund your money then financialy that is your best option.  If the little mite is so badly damaged she may not survive is there any justification in continuing her suffering.  As to the bill you have incurred I am guessing that yes it is yours to pay as these 'free week policies dont always kick in straight away' as you have found out and though i offer my puppy buyers the free policy I also advise them to look around and buy one that starts right away.  The breeder is willing to make some compensatory effort and many would not.

If she passed live worms she is likely to have been ill for a while and leaving the host like that is never a good sign she must be badly infested. You may have a hard time proving however that neglect caused the little puppies suffering and it would involve a cost to you in the first instance. So once again returning the puppy is the answer.  If they are reputable they will know the best thing to do for her.  If you are in any doubt now though as to the way your puppy was raised and if others may be suffering you should report the indcident to the RSPCA they may or may not follow it up.

I hope will all my heart that yours does not break over this.  If the worse happens there is always a good breeder out there and many of them are here at your fingertips.

OK thanks for this - the primary concern is the welfare of the puppy.  The breeder is refunding the cost of the dog anyway.  Now though, it becomes a decision of whether to euthanase the dog (something I cannot believe I am thinking about!!).  Basically does anyone have any advice as to the chances of a puppy recovering from the sort of situation I've described? 

We only recently had our last family dog put to sleep after she'd been with us for 15 years.  It took a lot to decide to welcome a new puppy into the family and now this...  The vet just seems completely non-committal. I just cannot believe this situation that we find ourselves in, both financially and ethically.

Any further advice would be gratefully received...

Thanks,
Jackie

Hi Jackie firstly welcome to the forum, also {{{{{Hugs}}}}}. It is very difficult for us to assess and give you a definite answer on what you should do and talking to your vet is the best way to come to a decision. A straight direct question asking what they would do if the puppy was theirs  may help you glean what they really feel the prospects are for this poor pup. At the moment they are  non commital as they may be reading the situation of you not wanting to make a decision to put to sleep and they are not at the stage of being certain that the puppy is beyond hope.

Hi - so sorry to hear about your puppy especially so soon after the loss of your previous dog.
Many years ago now, I unwittingly bought a puppy from a puppy farm.  After a couple of days she became ill, diarrhoea, lethargic and sicking up worms etc.  We took her to the vet where she had tests done and antibiotics as she had several nasty infections.  The vets advice was to return her - but we had already become attached to her and we knew that they would more than likely put her down or worse still just let her die.  So we kept her and luckily this was her only upset tummy in her life, she had no other health problems although her temperament wasnt it all it should be.  So, hopefully this little one will respond to medication and have a long and happy life with you.

Thanks again for the kind words.  I guess the simple question is "How common is it to have to put a puppy to sleep due to worms???"  I can't believe in this day and age that this happens.  And it is so expensive, especially as the insurance, which we registered in good faith, doesn't kick in and won't cover any of this...

Hi Jackie my dog when we first got him was similar to what your pup is going through. It did take some time but with good veterinary care my dog came through ok and he is now 3 years old. It did take approx two weeks for him to get on the road of recovery and we had many up and downs on the way. It was a difficult time and costly but what we decided as a family was if our dog was willing to fight then we would do what we could to help.

I know it's hard and very upseting time,  I will pray for your little one

xx

Hi

A few years ago i had a pup who was incredibly ill with hookworms. Her white platelet count was down to 13 per cent. The wormer we were using at the time did not do one version of hookworm we have in Australia that is more common further up in the tropics.

Poor thing spent 2 night in emergency on a drip with regular doses of panacur. She came home and was on Panacur for another fortnight.

She has grown up very nicely and has won a few in Show awards here.  Has just produced her first litter as well.

We were informed by the Specialist centre to regularly change wormers for all dogs. Puppies in particular we were told to change the wormer for every dose and to ensure that 3 days of panacur was given at 6 weeks. We have had no issues since then.

> Thanks again for the kind words.  I guess the simple question is "How common is it to have to put a puppy to sleep due to worms???"  I can't believe in this day and age that this happens.  And it is so expensive, especially as the insurance, which we registered in good faith, doesn't kick in and won't cover any of this...

Not common at all. Your dog needs not to become dehydrated and encouraged to eat. It can be round the clock care, feeding little one if not eating then squirting tiny amounts of food by syringe to get it back to eating again.
A good wormer needs to be used every day then a small break for a few days then started again. Antibiotics used just in case of secondary infection.

Vets are expensive, owning a pet can be expensive; taking out insurance can be risky if not reading the small print, sadly things happen and there is nothing one can do but do our best.

Jackie this link will explain about the worms http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/toxocaracanis.htm

Hi,

Thanks again for all the help and advice.  I couldn't possibly see the pup go back to the place we got her from; who is to say that they would even bother to treat her?  I will wait and see what the vet says when I call for a latest update at 4pm this evening.  They are now talking about all manner of tests (blood tests/X-rays/faeces cultures) which is just sending the bill skyrocketing.  I know that we are talking about a life, but funds are not limitless and this could all be for nothing.  It is a very real possibility that I could end paying out £1500-2000 and still have to have her put to sleep.  She has been in my home for less than 24h yet in that time I became so attached to her.  I will of course continue treatment for as long as the vet says we should.  I'll repost any outcome when I hear...

Jackie

Jackie I hope at 4pm you get good news :)
Before you phone write down the questions that you want to ask the vet, as it's so easy to forget. Keep it by the phone and write down the answers next to the question.
Questions like what medication little one is on, ask what wormer they are using, and if pup is trying to drink and eat.
Ask everything that you want to know.
xx

A friend of mine rescued a litter of GSD pups at 6 weeks old who were obviously badly infested with both fleas and worms.

Their coats were dry and lifeless and pups were very listless and their appetite was poor.

They were started on a 3 day course of worming and almost right away were pooing and sicking up live and dead worms in tremendous volume, so much so that Vet advised not to give the third days dose as the pups were so poorly and anaemic.

These pups and I suspect their dam had never been wormed.

All pups are born with worms as the life cycle of the toxacara dog round worm is linked to the reproductive cycle of the bitch and dormant larva are activated by hormones in the bitch and passed onto the pups through the placenta.  this is why many breeders embark on a worming regimen during pregnancy which should reduce this transfer by 98%,a nd then the pups are wormed regularly, at least twice before going to new homes.  some wormers that don't kill larval stages have to be given more often and two weekly intervals.

Anyway back to the rescue litter, they did survive, and were wormed two weeks later with Drontal that only needs one administration.  While they were poorly they were given live yogurt with their food which helped with the diarrhoea.  They got a large tub of the bio yogurt a day between 6 pups and the change in them by 8 weeks was incredible,a dn they were abler to be homed at 9 weeks despite theri terrrible start in life it is lucky they turned out nice dogs.

Did your pup come with details of worming and what had been used, as with the modern wormers you would not expect to see any actual Worms.

What an awful story! :( The only thing I'd like to add is that I as a breeder myself use PetPlan for puppy insurance, and that insurance starts the MOMENT the new owner walks out through my door. (And this is for 6 weeks.) Was this another company? If not, what was the reasoning behind them saying it would not be valid for 2 weeks? Did they perhaps reckon the pup was ill already when you bought it? If so, I'd expect the breeder to pay for the vet costs for sure.

I'm keeping everything crossed for your poor little pup to recover.

Marianne,

The insurance was with Petplan!  I quote the email we got when we registered

"Thank you for taking out your free period of insurance for Millie. We received your details at 08:57:02 on 02/09/2008.

Your reference number is

Millie's vet fee cover for injury has started already. Vet fee cover for illness will start 14 days from now on 16/09/2008."

Apparently, NO INSURANCE covers for the 1st 2 weeks - this is as advised by Petplan when I called, so I would double check yours.  Maybe you just have a better policy; wish our breeder had've done.  The vets have been very unsympathetic with regards costs - when I spoke to the practise owner all he said was "you should have had her insured".  You can imagine how frustrating this is...   Having spokne to a friend, apparently it mnay be worth contacting trading standards as she was sold "as wormed and vet checked" - yet clearly she was either not wormed or ineffective drugs were used...  Will see what happens, however my first concern at the moment is to Millie )-:

Thanks again everyone
Jackie

This is a horrible story, and my very best wishes to you and to your new pup.

It's good that the breeder has said they will refund your money, and now isn't perhaps the time when you want to be worrying about recriminations, but a puppy is like any other item that is sold, in that it must be 'fit for purpose'. A puppy that has not been properly wormed quite obviously isn't in a fit state to be sold. You should speak to your local Trading Standards department, and they should be able to advise you - it could be that the breeder would be liable for paying your veterinary expenses.

ETA: Sorry didn't read the above post properly :(! I would have a word with Trading Standards!

This happened to me the Insurance for injury starts straight away for illness it starts 14 days later. Jackie what Petplan has told you it the truth I think most policys have this written in.

OMG I feel so much for you. Mega{{{{{{{{{{cyber hugs}}}}}}}}}} to you

The breeder was obviously not responsible as the puppies should have been wormed before you bought her & you should have been given a record of the product & dates of treatment. Mr Wu came which a full medical check & treatment record & TBH young puppies shouldn't need to be "defleaed". I always made sure my bitches were wormed pre & post mating & also post partum as well as the puppies.

A lot of people do not realise that the puppy is only covered for accidents for the first two weeks & then illnesses/accidents for the next 4).

Again, thank you everyone for the kind words.  Your sympathy is very very touching.  The latest;  apparently Millie has picked up a little.  The vet has give her Stronghold and while she hasn't drunk anything, the nurses have syringed Lectade into her and now they are going with Pro-Kolin.  She will have to stay in over night - which means another transfer to the emergency clinic as our vets no longer offer overnight hospitalisation and seemingly none in the North of Birmingham do!  We will then collect her tomorrow and take her to the treating vets.

So, I guess that this is encouraging...

As for the Trading Standards - I called them and they have suggested that I write to the breeder citing the Sale of Goods Act (1979), which states that an item must be fit for sale.  In this case, Millie quite clearly wasn't as the magnitude of her infestation is so large.  I obviously cannot prove that he hadn't wormed her or the bitch during gestation/whelping, but it is clear that the worming was ineffective.  She did come with a single worming tablet, but we never had her home long enough to give it to her.  So, it is encouraging to hear all of the tales of similar situations where dogs have recovered...  So we go on and see what happens.

Thank you all again...

Jackie

Thinking of you Jackie, I hope Millie makes a full recovery :-)

Apparently, NO INSURANCE covers for the 1st 2 weeks - this is as advised by Petplan when I called, so I would double check yours

Goodness, I have to check this out -thanks for letting me know!

Did you have a contract with the breeder?  I think the trouble with trying to claim money for treatment from the breeder may come unstuck from the point of view of "Trading Standards" in that you did not clear the treatment with them first.  Although it is horrible to think it puppies are no different to a pair of shoes when it comes to retail law and if it was a pair of shoes you could not instigate expensive repairs without the manufacturers say so. The breeders have offered a full refund on the puppy and I rather think the Trading Standards will see that as acceptable but the rest has been on your own head.

Everything crossed here for Millie & Cavalier kisses to make her feel better from JD

Hi just joined i have a 4 month labradoodle used drontal plus for first time (heard was better) and has made him really sick still trying to be sick??? What do I do??? Please help

Did you worm at the same time as vaccinating ? Where did you get the Drontal from ? Did you weigh your puppy to check the dosage ?

What should you do ? Go to the vet asap

he was vaccinated quite a while ago have called the vet who has advised to take away food and only give him small amounts of water to see if he keeps it down!? Hate seeing him unwell

Yeah i weighed him to make sure dosage was correct and bought from vet. He is sleeping now but still so worried having read some of the stuff about is

Hi Jacob1, Most of the time sickness clears up withing 24 hours just keep a close eye and make sure pup is drinking, if pup seems to be going down hill take pup to the vet straight away, if still sick by morning take pup to vet for a check over.

From the Pet Plan page regarding insurance

Cover Benefits

What does the Petplan 6 week Instant Cover offer

Veterinary Fees - Up to £4000
If pet is ill or injured, including hospitalisation and referral.

Death from Illness or Injury - Up to £750
Losing a pet is a great sadness, but should the worst happen, we will refund the purchase price.

Loss by theft or straying - Up to £750
If pet is not found despite all the efforts, we will refund the purchase price.

Advertising and rewards - up to £200
If pet is lost or stolen, we pay for local advertising and reward.

can't see anything about 2 weeks grace for illness, so what is going on here? Are Pet Plan not keeping their word as advertised on their site?

Must admit I'm a little concerned now regarding the six weeks free Petplan cover I give.  It was my understanding was the full benefits were available from the minute the policy was activated by me (pup leaving day)

Will have to check this one out.

Vicky x

If I buy a Petplan policy, when does my cover begin?

On all policies, cover for injury starts as soon as you complete the online policy application process. Cover for illness starts 14 days afterwards.

Just found the above on the breeder pages of Petplan FAQ.

Would seem illness if only covered 14 after the policy is activated!!!!!!

I wonder if you have a deposit on a pup and details of the new owner you could activate the policy 14 days before it leaves so the new owner has full cover when the pup goes to it's new home?

They are so missleading with their description of cover then! How many people let their puppies go thinking they are totally covered for the whole 6 weeks 'Instant' free cover.......this is disgusting. :( Does the KC insurance cover for illness from the begining, or does this have a 14 days limit as well?

Ok, as a friend has a litter of puppies and uses Pet Plan, I rang her regarding this, and she contaced Pet Plan sharpish! Aparently, the Instant 6 weeks policy given by the breeder registered as such with Pet Plan called a Breeder Instant policy actually does cover for illness as well from the date of sale.

I don't think that any policy will cover for illness form the first day. I do beleive it is to stop people form only taking out a policy when there pet is ill, ie, owner has no policy, dog gets sick - quick phone call, now have policy & take dog to vets & claim on insurance.

The free 6 weeks PetPlan insurance cover note, if issued by a vet after the first check, covers anything that happens to the pup after they've left the surgery that same day.

Thanks Calmstorm

Saves me dragging out all my paperwork and having to shout at people on a Friday afternoon when i get home from work - lol

I will however check my breeder pack and in future activate policies by phone and ask the question at the time rather than activate them online.

Cheers

Vicky

Hi All,

Firstly, the good news - it appears that my pup is well on the mend!  She's not out of the woods, but much much improved.  I may even be able to have her home tonight (lets hope so)... 

I seem to have opened a real can of worms here with regard insurance.  However, having spoken to Petplan, the assure me that they do not cover for the first 2 weeks.  To quote "It is a business that they run, and so can't be paying out for all illnesses, so they have they 2 week grace period to ensure the pup is healthy."  This is in the fine print, but does seem to make the whole thing a bit of a mockery, so I would be grateful to know if any of you breeders out there offer a different policy to the one that I got.  There are various thoughts about this, but I suspect that the insurance is a no go.  On the liability front; now that things have calmed down, I have spoken with Trading Standards and they have advised me to write to the breeder in question quoting the Sale of Goods Act (as Ammended 1979), on the basis that the dog was sold as "vet checked, wormed and insured".  This is apparently a case of selling goods "unfit for purpose" (it sounds so cold, doesn't it?) and also not as described.  The severity of the worm infestation suggests that worming either wasn't carried out, or was ineffective (due to either poor quality cheap drugs, or mass working in the food and not ensuring that each pup got a dose).  This therefore means that the pup was not sold as described.  Apparently, we can ask for the entire cost of treatment back, but I am not initially going to do this - I am prepared to discuss the situation with the breeder, let him take the bills to his vets and get a quote for what his vet would have charged for the treatment and then meet any difference as it would appear that our vets are inasnely overpriced, due to the fact that they do not have any overnight facilities and all hopsitalisation cases need to be transferred (by the owner) to an emergency clinic and therefore get charged extra.  I would question how wise this situation is - it makes good economic sense for the vets involved in this scheme (and it would appear that nearly all of the vets in North Brimingham are) but the continuity of care does concern me - the nurses etc (while doing a good job) don't see the pets over a long enough period of time to be able to comment on changes in condition.

Finally, I'd like to thank everyone for the very kind and supportive words that I received.  It really did help in this stressful time.

Jackie

Petplan tell you on the phone when you activate them ,that puppy is covered from that time on for 6 weeks.
  Will ring then up to find out what is going on.
     Hope your little one pulls though vlw2209

  However, having spoken to Petplan, the assure me that they do not cover for the first 2 weeks.

The insurance cover you have. Was this provided by the breeder, activated by the breeder before you left the premises with your puppy with Pet Plan, (phone or online) and did you have a certificate (card) given to you from the breeder which gave the policy number, name of puppy, printed full name of breeder and breeders signature, all hand written by the breeder, and you would have had to provide your name, address and telephone number for the breeder to register your details as an owner with Pet Plan? All details on the certificate would have Pet Plan logo and the 'small print' as in their conditions on the back? This would be a breeder instant policy, and Pet Plan have assured my friend that illness is covered from date of purchase. You would need to claim using the reference number provided by the breeder as seen on the certificate of cover. Pet Plan would be very quick to contact you after your details were registered, inviting you to continue cover after this 6 weeks, have you heard from them?

I'm just wondering if this insurance is a genuine Pet Plan breeders 6 weeks instant policy :)

Pleased to hear your little one is picking up :)

> Hope your little one pulls though vlw2209

Think you have me mixed up with someone else, but thanks anyway :-)

I think this sounds like a bit of a oddity.

To satisfy my own mind I have just telephoned the Breeder Line - 0800 072 4411

For a breeder activated policy there is no 14 day deferrment period for illness.  Pup is fully covered for vet fees from the minute the policy is activated.

Jackie, I really suggest you query this with the breeder of your pup as like Calmstorm says it may not be the policy you thought you were getting.

Vicky x

just re read the back of my petplan to.  Cover instant from date of purchase shown overleaf (for breeder to fill in).  The only get out clause I can see is

We wont pay if an injury or illness that is caused by relates to or results from an injury illness or clinical sign your puppy had before its cover started.

Could be argued the bad infestation was there before the cover :(

I am glad she has pulled through shes gonna be spoilt rotten when she gets home isn't she :)

> it may not be the policy you thought you were getting.

If this is the case and the 'breeder' has misled you over this as well, yet another point to bring up with Trading Standards.

I wouldn't be too kind to this person with regard to your costs. It's because people like you don't want to cause too much of a fuss that these people can carry on producing puppies (I can't dignify what they do with the word 'breeding') and making a good profit at the expense of living creatures.

Bringing living creatures into this world is a big responsibility and it's time those that do do it properly sould get recognition for the commitment they show. Put the puppy farmers and BYBs out of business and we would have healthier puppies and far fewer dogs in rescue.

To satisfy my own mind I have just telephoned the Breeder Line - 0800 072 4411

For a breeder activated policy there is no 14 day deferrment period for illness.  Pup is fully covered for vet fees from the minute the policy is activated.


Thank goodness for that, thought I was going doolally for a while there LOL!
I'd guess as well then that PetPlan might be arguing that the illness was present when the pup was bought.

> Firstly, the good news - it appears that my pup is well on the mend!  She's not out of the woods, but much much improved.  I may even be able to have her home tonight (lets hope so)... 

Fingers are remaining firmly crossed that your little one continues to improve.

I'm not a breeder but my second puppy's breeder activated the insurance herself when we went to pick her up so matches what Vicky was told about the breeder activating it and getting full coverage. When I got my first dog I think I had to activate the insurance myself. Maybe there's different policies?

I hope your girl comes home tonight.

> Thank goodness for that

Me too - lol I had a right wobble on for a while as in our puppy information packs we specifically state everything is covered!

To the OP

I too believe you are planning to let this breeder off the hook far too easily.

It is disgusting that a breeder can let a pup go with such a sever infestation of worms.  There is NO excuse whatsoever.

I would expect them to pay your vet fee's in full regardless of whether they could have got the same treatment cheaper.  It is their responsibility to ensure the puppy is healthy when it leaves to go to it's new home.

I feel you are just relieved that your little one appears to be recovering, imagine how you would have felt had the outcome been different which it may be for other puppies in the litter or future litters this breeder has.

I would "hang them out to dry".

It is breeders like this who are giving the rest of us a bad name.

So so pleased that everything has turned out OK for you xxxx

I'd guess as well then that PetPlan might be arguing that the illness was present when the pup was bought

Good point, but that then bounces back to the breeder making a false declaration both to the owner and to Pet Plan by stating that the puppy had been wormed and was in good health? Dosent this cancel out the policy if it can be proved the breeder sold an unwell puppy? gosh, it gets darker by the minute! I am suprised that the policy can be issued by a breeder stating a puppy is in good health without having a vet check. Most breeders are not vets, and only a vet can give advice as to the overall health of a puppy, seems to me to be a good insurance loop hole.

However, the reason stated for Pet Plan not paying out is the 14 day rule, which I thought applied to new business insurance policies, not breeder instant policies?