do you have to join the society for a limit show,

if you are not a member of the society that is running a open show do you always pay more than
members who are showing at that show

> do you have to join the society for a limit show,

It depends how the show is Limited but yes very often they are for members only.

> if you are not a member of the society that is running a open show do you always pay more than
> members who are showing at that show

Have never paid more for an Open Show as a non-member other than at Breed club Open show

that is what i thought that i had not paid more being a non member of a club for an open show,
but it had been a while since i entered a show, but had three to send off and when i was writing them
out they all had non members 1st entry and then members entry which was cheaper i understand that members
can  get cheaper entries , but i thought that i had maybe missed something while i had not been showing, that
a new rule had come out that you could charge non members and members different prices for showing
at open shows.
well at least i know now

> if you are not a member of the society that is running a open show do you always pay more than
> members who are showing at that show

I've just gone through a fistful of my schedules for October and November (gundog and general shows) and all show cheaper entries for members. The majority are: Non members £4.50 Members £3.50.  Subsequent entries vary between £0 and £0.50 more expensive for non members

We are a group show and do charge more to non-members than members for the first entry then it it the same for all.

i have always paid more for bring a non-member at an open show.

Well It must be regional then as I never have and I'm secretary of a group open show that never has either :-)

It must be regional because all Open Shows here if you are not a member are slightly more expensive,usually about 50 pence to a pound more.

Limit shows I thought were limited to members?

Just had a quick squint on fosse and yes I see what you mean about members and non members but did find one that was the same as us and doesn't have different entry fees.
Yes I said above most are for members, but you could have them limited by other criteria such as living within a certain distance from the show.

edited to add my missing q's LOL

I think they are slightly more expensive for non-members.

BTW, if you get a CC you can't enter a limit show even if you are a member. :-(

That is true but you can take one of your other dogs if you have any or handle for someone else or help by stewarding, even if your club can't offer you an opportunity to show at club Limit show it does not mean you can't join in or help with the running.

Yes sorry, I was vague there, didn't clarify I meant that the CC winner couldn't go, but other dogs would be fine. :-)

Yeah and if your dogs a champion from another country which may be easier to become a champion than this you can't enter, even when you don't have CC's on offer here for the breed.

Now I don't know this because my club runs two open shows but since the KC intervened and cut some clubs down to 1 open show a year they have to supplement the funds to mount the open show by running Limited or Companion shows, the rules controlling them are not the clubs they are doing there best to keep their heads above the water and continue to offer their members and exhibitors at least one open show a year.

So what I am saying is do not blame the club for the rules they can't control, but support them all you can or they may just not be there in a years time. I know some people only show at championship shows but other enjoy the more local open show where the can enjoy a day out with their all so runs and the pups and juniors so support or loose.

I actually think that people should be made to attend open shows.  It makes me laugh how so many newcomers to the sport go straight the champshows and don't bother with open ones.

> I actually think that people should be made to attend open shows.

Goodness I don't think that, it's a hobby for most exhibitors and should remain a matter of choice. The dog show world has so many rules and regulations already I would not like to see people forced to attend open shows no more than I would wish open shows turned into glorified ring craft classes.

As it happens the first show I attended with my first show dog of 6 months happened to be a championship show, I entered because it was the first she was old enough to enter. She got a 2nd place so her, and my inexperience did us no harm. People with breeds like yours and mine get few breed classes and you need breed classes to understand what a good dog of your breed looks like and how the experienced handle, if you have to enter championship show to find breed classes then so be it I can't see why the experienced would find this a problem.

i like open shows, i like the atmosphere at an open show, and i get to see some people that i would not mormally
see at a champ show as they have different breed to me
i do not think you should be forced into open shows it is everyones own decision what they want to do,
i know that money accounts for a lot of decisions for shows now, some people i know haved decided it is only
champ shows thisyear they will do , but next year they said if fuel etc comes down to a reasonable level they
may start supporting the open shows
carolann

Sorry Nova but in most other walks of life we have to start from the bottom up.  People coming into the showing world are killing our hobby by just going to champ. shows.  One day there will be nothing.  Open Shows are much cheaper and in reality should be a starting ground, why does everyone think these days that their dogs are good enough for champion shows?  There's one breed where most of them bare no resemblance to what they are supposed to and definitely don't look the colour that their own breed name implies (oh and it's not a gundog).

When I first started showing we would go to the Limit shows, exemption shows and everything to gain our experience and nobody would ever even think of entering a champ. show until they knew what they were doing.

We are losing classes these days at open shows in breeds that used to be so popular.  CKCS's springs to mind, went to an open show a few months ago, arriving half an hour later than the start time as I knew that their would be loads of this breed, how many were entered NONE!!!  I missed my class etc. and it's happened two more times since where none have been entered, wasn't solong ago when you would have around 40 of them at open shows.

Do you think people only go to championship shows when they start showing then? Have to say in my own breed if you did not do championship shows you would be hard put to show in a breed class at all and that would be a shame as it is only by meeting other breeders and exhibitors and seeing their stock that you learn anything. AV classes have their place but will do nothing to help instruct the newcomer into the ways and qualities of the breed they have chosen.

> When I first started showing we would go to the Limit shows, exemption shows and everything to gain our experience and nobody would ever even think of entering a champ. show until they knew what they were doing

That may be the case with a lot of new exhibitors but certainly not all - it would depend why they first decided to exhibit the dog.  My first BSD was bought strictly as a family companion although purchased from a regular exhibitor.  On visiting us one time to catch up on how our pup was doing, she asked would we enter Darlington Ch show as she would like to borrow her for the day.  As it happens we couldn;t bear to be parted from her so travelled ourselves and she won 1st in the MPB class and we became hooked :)  Admittedly we then went on to show her at what few shows provided breed classes and a few AVNSC shows but also a couple of champ shows in between and preferred the more breed intense entries at champ shows to meeting the same 4-6 of our own breed at open shows where it soon became clear to anyone with the slightest bit of sense that results really were a lottery and didn't necessarily reflect what would be the outcome if judged by specialists :)

We still continued to support the dwindling classes at local open shows (some even not so local being almost 100 miles away!) but TBH the hanging around all day in cramped conditions with poor exercise facilities, shoddy but expensive catering, boring and/or stressful environment on the dogs all to be swiftly concluded when Mr/s N E Body made a random guess at what constituted a typical dog held little appeal :)

I'm not saying everyone or even a large number of folks should necessarily start out campaigning their new arrival on the ch show circuit but many will have been encouraged by a breeder to attend a particular show and that may very well be a champ event :)

If the Limit or Open scene is struggling to survive IMO it is (pre this current gloomy financial period) down to cutting costs on free lunches for breed judges in favour of promoting the all rounder, whether established or up and coming.   If exhibiting say 2 or 3 dogs and the same judge is doing the breed, plus varety classes, plus a group or more where's the incentive to enter the same dog for an extra class?  There is none.  Whereas if I had an up and coming specialist judge for breed classes and respected all rounder for variety and/or group then it's worth the extra money and time spent.  Otherwise for me and mine it's not.

I feel sad that these smaller and more local events are dying out but perhaps with the finances of many being overstretched the social side of them will help lure back previous exhibitors and attract new ones - but committees shouldn't get complacent should that happen as exhibitors still want value for money and someone suitably competent to assess their dogs :)

regards, Teri

When i first started showing I only ever went to companion, limit & open shows for 4 years, champ shows were for the experienced........still are lol
But also being from the Isle of Man its an additional £130 for the ferry so defo wasn't worth it when I knew my first dog was only a pet and showing just happened.

I've only just started going to champ shows in the last 10-11 months since getting my first ever show puppy & he qualified for crufts at his 2nd champ :) & I think what helped was that I knew what I was doing and didn't look a total novice, I do still try to go to an open show while I'm over
1: i'm supporting the open shows
2: supporting up and coming judges
and
3: people speak to me more at opens shows where at champs its just a smile & nod

Perrodeagua.  You have used very emotive language and it's obviously something you've thought about, and care about.  I'm not being facetious but genuinely interested in your point of view - I think I've seen you mention this in previous threads too...

> People coming into the showing world are killing our hobby by just going to champ. shows.

Are there 'new' people only doing champ shows?
At what point is someone considered not new?
When is it ok by you to enter a champ show?  > until they knew what they were doing
Who decides when that is?

> Open Shows are much cheaper and in reality should be a starting ground

Are you saying there really is no room for new (or newish) people to do both?
Perhaps they are a starting ground but when is it ok to move up to champ shows?
What about breeds with no CC's, or small numbers - when do they get judged alongside their own?

> why does everyone think these days that their dogs are good enough for champion shows?

What if your breeder, open show judge, ringcraft helpers, say it is?
What if you keep beating the same dogs?  When is it ok to take your dog up against the 'champ show' dogs?

> One day there will be nothing
How will this happen?
Shouldn't everyone take responsibility for supporting breed classes at open shows - new and experienced?

> We are losing classes these days at open shows in breeds that used to be so popular

Not really fair to blame people new to showing, surely?
Some breeds just aren't as popular as they used to be
What about fuel costs - this must be playing a part too?
What about the judges - doesn't this affect the shows people choose to enter?  If an open show judge is judging a lot of different breeds, does this lessen their appeal for some breeders so much that they choose not to enter?

In what way does having a less experienced person or inferior dog in the ring with you at a Champ show affect you and your dog?  How is this different than meeting the same person, and dog, at an Open show?

You describe it as a sport - with that in mind shouldn't it be open to all?  It's a whole other topic but presumably the more dogs there are in the show ring, the more diversity there is for the judges and breeders to get their 'eye in'?  If a percentage of entries at any level are new people where is the harm?

There's room for people to do both, I haven't said there isn't and don't think it's that emotive wording at all.

I don't think it's wrong but think it's a shame that a number and I've noticed this at a few ringcrafts and also being mentioned at champshows that many newcomers have never been to an open show and have gone straight to champshows and with dogs that really aren't suitable for champ shows and would have been much better starting at the lower levels and then if they fell for the "show bug" as many of us have that they may be able to get a dog that's more suited to the champshow world.  Then they complain if their dogs aren't getting to the top level and make comments on dog sites stating that judges etc. are just facey (can't spell today :) )  Yes some people do judge faces of the handler than the dog but it's not many.

When you look at show entries it is usually the same faces at champ shows and there doesn't seem to be that many newbies that stay around for years to come, yes of course there are some that stay but I don't think as many as when I started showing umm 20 something years ago.

Maybe it is an oldtimer thing then as many people that used to go to the open shows when I first started still go to them today.

Maybe I'm an old foody doody well before my years?  But it is funny that those of us who have shown for many a year still seem to go to the open shows.  I usually go because I enjoy the fun that is had at open shows more relaxed because you are usually indoors and seating ensures that you are sat together most of the time. 

Gosh maybe I'm an just an old so and so even though I'm only in my 30's.

The employment of breed specialists for open shows and the falling entries are at odds with one another. My club would wish to give each and every breed a breed specialist judge but you can't get a judge to travel some distance to judge an entry of 4 or 5 dogs, 50% of which may well be absent. True there are judges who can afford to do this but not many so the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

No breed judges - falling entries
Falling entries - less chance of breed judges
Entries falling further - classes cut
Classes cut - Entries falling further
Entries falling further - closing shows.
Closing open shows - nowhere for judges to train
Nowhere for judges to train - less breed judges for Championship shows
Less breed judges for Championship shows - More need for all rounders
More need for all rounders - More all round judges fast tracked by the Judges Development programme
More all round judges fast tracked by the Judges Development programme - more Championship shows using fast track judges to judge several breed
More Champ shows using fast track judges to judge several breed - depressing.

i started at open shows and did not enter a champ show until this year so i could gain some experience before going up to champ shows.
However with the new pup i went to Winsdor champ show (on his 6 month birthday) and did two more champ shows before i could find a local ish open show to enter.
I do enter twice as many open shows as champ shows and on the whole i enjoy them more as the pressure is off and people tend to have more time for a chat etc.
If its a nice day we take a picnic and the tent and stay for the day.
It sure bets sitting at home watching the goggle box!!!

Hi Nova,

I completely agree with the summary you've given re vicious circles and judges - it's a sad fact of life today and certainly IMO a completely accurate picture of how things are going.  But I do believe the one judge 5+ breeds at open level is responsible for the situation we are now in, despite the fact that the rot probably started 10 years or so ago with many societies.  Clearly some societies have always done their best to provide what the exhibitors want and of course in some regions or groups the exhibitors may be less supportive than others which means that clubs with the best intentions in the world are facing declining entries and spiralling costs despite their efforts.  Sad and frustrating :(

Where breed classes with breed judges at open level are supplied I will support them - in the absence of those conditions I wont.  Companion shows and ring craft will give me all the opportunities I need to socialise and train a youngster for it's future champ show outings.  I have a breed which doesn't perform of it's best indoors so village halls, sports centres etc have no value to training for the eventual aim which is Ch level - unless anyone knows of any which are similar in size and accoustics to the NEC :-D

Nova, perhaps you know the answer to this

As a competitor, how does one keep breed classes at a Open show?  One of the open shows I went to at the beginning of the year had only a very small number of dogs entered in my breed.  It was already a low entry but then some absences.  I heard someone say that the society may not bother giving us classes again.  Is it the number of entries or number of dogs turning up that influence the societies decision?  Someone I know will post entries to small clubs, even when she cannot attend - she does this to support the class.  Does this have any effect?

Another society has dropped us from breed classes at their next show but, when I queried it, said that if we have a good number entered under NSC then it makes a case for getting our classes back next time.

I bought my dog for showing and I do both types of show; I like the contrast in handling on grass and in a sports hall and my dog is better for having experience of all types of venue and all NSC breeds.  I enjoy NSC classes but I do make an extra effort to get to the breed classes.  If we are in danger of losing them - what can I do to help?  Is it worth paying for an entry - even if you know you can't make it this time - so that you can save it for next year?  Does that work?

We are a group open show so are not under such strict control by the KC with regard to entry numbers, all breed open shows have to return an average of at least 4 per class for 2 shows in a row or they will only be allowed to run one open show a year. So to try to keep their entry numbers up they drop the breeds who's entry do not meet the KC's required numbers.

Another problem is finding judges that are willing or able to travel to judge a small numbers of animals so the show committee will try to find a judge that is on two or more breed lists so that they will feel it worth the expense of travelling to the show and giving up a day of their weekend for.

We are quick to be cross with judges who are getting more and more choosy as to which shows they can attend but most are family people and the available family funds have to be spread fairly between all the family members there is also the time involved when the judge has children so I am not surprised that many decide the effort and sacrifice involved these days in getting the required experience is just a step too far.

Then there are just plain economics, put on 4 classes for a breed and you have to take in entries for that breed not only enough to cover that breeds share of the venue costs but the judges catering costs, postage, printing, advertising, insurance, licence, awards, and prize cards and if given rosettes. Think you will see if the entry is low then the breed will not break even and have to be subsidized and it is becoming more and more difficult to make ends meet. Mounting a show costs thousands and the committee has the responsibility to keep it viable, most are not experienced in business practices and sometimes make wrong decisions. It is ease to see why breeds not paying there way will be dropped along with those who's judges are unwilling to judge and who's breed clubs are not supportive.

Another thing I have noticed is that as the entry numbers drop the interest of the exhibitors does too, no one wants to win a class of one and that is what happens in some breeds, the KC has bought in many different changes to support the open show but most have proved to have down sides as well as up.

Good Post. Nova

I agree 100% with Nova. I am on an all breeds Society committee,and we have been fortunate to keep 2 shows per year, so far!
I also run ringcraft classes and regularly get calls from owners who are booked in for a show the next week, have never owned a dog before let alone been to a show. They have been told by the breeder of their puppy to enter this show, you can 99% guarantee it will be a major Ch. Show. This is unfair on the puppy and can be quite traumatic for them too. Without denegrating early successes for some, if the entry is low this means that a less than sparkling dog can be placed highly and may even qualify for Crufts. I have personal knowledge of a handler who enteres their dog in any and every class possible, (the dog Never took a 1st at any level) yet it qualified for the K.C. Stud Book and therefore Crufts for life. Simply because it was entered in Open with only 1 other dog, and the judge did not withold.

I agree that Open shows should give more breed judges where possible, but as has been said already it is hard to find judges that will travel.
When entries are low there is often an outbreak of illness ir crisis' that prevent them from attending, this the leads to exhibitors being dissapointed. Another worying aspect is when known breedeers enter their young stock at an Open Show, they are accused of card chasing and told they should not enter. If only these Young/ New EXPERTS realised how much they could learn from the more seasoned exhibitors.

There is no real answer to the problem, but we should occasionally stand back and take a long look at how we behave and how we can help to improve things

Thanks for the support Teilo & Marion, now if the KC insisted that all exhibitors attended at least 12 open shows before entering a championship show that would help the open show committees a good deal :-)

I am not advocating this though and think the show scene is over organised as it is and would love to return to the days when it really could be fun and the organisers did not spend the whole day trying to make sure that they, the judges, stewards and exhibitors do not break some rule that could land the society or club in deep water and even worse with a fine.

Personally I seem to spend the whole day explaining to exhibitors and sometimes judges or stewards why they can't do the obvious and have to adhere to the KC rules however inappropriate they may seem in the actual situation. Suppose the rules are there to protect me but sometimes it does not seem that way. I would love to be allowed to use my commonsense and make a decision there and then on each situation as it occurred.  Show secretaries and managers decisions would have to be final but at least it would be personal and one would not be left with having to try to explain you hands are tied by a rule you may not agree with.

> I agree that Open shows should give more breed judges where possible, but as has been said already it is hard to find judges that will travel.

Could it be that another part of the problem in looking for breed judges is that in some wide spread regions there are several societies using the same venues?  The Newark & Notts showground springs to mind as does Woodgreen Animal Shelter, very probably there are more than that.  I've judged at both of these places twice for different societies and only accepted appointments when there was a couple of years gap since I last judged at the venue.  I was asked several times in between to judge there but declined as I knew it was pointless for all concerned.

As for judges being unwilling to travel, in my own breed (all varieties) we've found many judges regularly travell from extreme ends of the country to take on an appointment.  Equally I know of many exhibitors in my own breed who will travel outwith their normal radius to show under a specialist judge - as much to assess the judge's abilities as to support the classes ;)

I've served on my breed club committe and helped organise, run and oversee both their championship and two annual open shows so am aware that an awful lot goes on behind the scenes to make a good and successful show of which the exhibitors are unaware.  Sadly much of this hard work and dedication goes unrewarded by even the slightest gesture of appreciation.  Such, unfortunately, is the situation with many aspects of our hobby.

> Without denegrating early successes for some, if the entry is low this means that a less than sparkling dog can be placed highly and may even qualify for Crufts

Very true but it is down to the judge, at any level, to withhold where an exhibit is unworthy or untypical of it's breed.  As it stands a judge has no remit whatsoever to place exhibits with forethought to Crufts!  Awarding untypical examples places which give stud book numbers is a more serious issue IMO and is the result of a weak or incompetent judge.

Many dogs can be high fliers at open level but only because the NE Body judge is assessing an entry on movement alone (and not necessarily on the movement required by the individual breed standards LOL) One that most springs to mind was photographed regularly in the dog press as winning BOB, Groups & a notable amount of BIS/RBIS show wins.  It dominated the top spots for a few years and yet had a much more lowly profile at ch level.   Indeed under a few all rounders it gained a random place in PG providing it wasn't a large class but it was consistently unplaced by specialists and the more knowledgeable multi breed judges ......

So, IMO, regardless of the level at which an exhibitor enters, the results are only ever as worthy as the knowledge and integrity behind the judge who is assessing them :)  Equally unless an exhibit is assessed preferably by a specialist but at the very least an all rounder who has gained and retained an active interest in the breed, the owners may well feel they have a little star on their hands on the basis of a dozen BOBs gained against the same half dozen competitors under a few anonymous judges.  Small wonder that those with dogs which do consistently well on the ch show scene are given a less than hospitable welcome by these 'successful' exhibitors when bringing out a new youngster to train :(

I've noted over nearly 20 years that the committee of NW&PB consistently go out of their way to appoint breed specialists for both their open and champ events - hopefully other societies also are as both considerate to the breeds they schedule as they are forward thinking :)

If only we had all the answers, eh!

regards, Teri

Are the rules with the KC too stringent about judges?

I am the original importer of my breed, owned and showed them for 16 years and I am on the lowest list for judging them.  Surely there should be more scope for people like me?

I'd also shown and judge my parents breed in previous years.

> Are the rules with the KC too stringent about judges?

Very possibly in some cases but since the breed clubs have such a large input then surely much is their responsibility too?

Personally I think your own situation is a disgrace and sadly not an isolated case.  If those most experienced with import register and rare breeds are not supported vigorously by their respective breed clubs then those breeds will definitely suffer in the long term, often attracting 'outside' interest from some less scrupulous just as they're about to achieve CC status :(

The fact that judging CVs/lists are most often collated on a numbers gained basis does not help as some folks can achieve the figures required without ever having made a decent job of placing the dogs entered and sometimes only ever having very mediocre examples to judge anyway.  The breed clubs with a judges sub committee should (ideally) be able to employ some basic common sense and help promote aspiring judges they know to have a genuine in depth knowledge of their breed despite perhaps not having had as many opportunities to judge as more pushy or user-friendly folks listed.

Of course it's not an ideal world and there's always going to be a degree of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' which fields the less able into positions more deserving of folks such as yourselves.

regards, Teri