GSD results from Birmingham witholding a VHC  ??? Can understand witholding a place if it's a Crufts qualifier & the dog is really awful but VHC ????? Will be interesting to see if he does a critique & if he explains why !

seems to have withheld quite a few...

Have a look at the Bournemouth results aswell take note of the judges, very very interesting........! A very poor entry considering there were tickets at BC aswell.

I know very interesting Not that I am suggesting anything of course :-O

How could anyone withold from a Veteran?????

Precisely I would love to know what dogs were entered

Have a friend who was there on Saturday - I'll see if she has a catalogue ;)

iv'e never known a veteran class being witheld before how odd.

Peanuts

There were 51 dogs entered and 14 absentees.

The dog entered in VD was Burtonhaven Heinrich, and the bitch who had 3rd in VB witheld was Bridget Tonight.

WOW will definitely be having a nosey at that critique!!  Good for the judge though for being brave enough to do it although I would love to know the reasons why.  I'd hate that to happen to me though I must admit especially withholding the VHC.

Thing is when withholding the VHC the judge does not have to explain why. Seems to withhold in veteran is a bit steep even if the dog was not totaly sound.

51 entries ?? so he had 37 dogs to judge @ the most with CC's !!! That entry speaks volumes & this is the Chairman of the GSD(Alsatian)Club of the United Kingdom !! I would have thought he would have had a huge entry in the Midlands

There's nothing on that site when you go into the different categories they are all under construction.  Wonder whether he likes a certain type and there weren't many of that type there.  Would love to know :)

He is of the Alsatianist breeders(affix Lornaville) & all the dogs entered would have been of his type

> all the dogs entered would have been of his type

Would they?  I know nothing about the people or dogs referred to here but I wonder if this is the GSD faternity finally getting tough on the extremes that they have been taken to?  Perhaps he has had a message from the KC even.  Perhaps he will elaborate in his report.

They would definitely have been of his type, no one who shows the International type would bother to waste their money entering under him, his dogs are extreme very very long, short legged overly deep in chest, overangulated & definitely not health tested at all(he lost a court case for selling a puppy that had no hips(scored 106))to someone wanting to do working trials. All the dogs of his I have seen are not er shall I say typical of what I expect in GSDs

The veteran dog is most defenitely not the judges prefered type ,I,m not sure about the veteran bitch I,m not familiar with her .
I,m just thinking the owners must have got in the wrong camp so to speak.

They would definitely have been of his type, no one who shows the International type

Surely there isn't just two types MM . Uk and international. I dont' have a clue about GSD s but you do see various types in the ring of all breeds, rightly or wrongly is another debate but  then type as we know doesn't mean quality or visible undesirable issues.

>I know nothing about the people or dogs referred to here but I wonder if this is the GSD faternity finally getting tough on the extremes that they have been taken to?

I don't know anything about this show but from what I understand the top brass in the SV have recently made an announcement that the GSD must return to the working dog.  Our breed club had a meeting about it this morning and the extremes in the show lines is one point raised amongst others.  There is talk of reducing the gap between the working and show lines. 

http://www.videxgsd.com/STRENGTHS_AND_WEAKNESSES.htm

'My advice and wishes are that GSD breeding stops excluding, separatism and division. More common sense please. No one-way street but overall selection of overall traits. The right combination is not extreme mated to extreme. Hochzucht must include Leistungszucht and vice versa. Sometimes it will be proved that the dog you want to exclude can be in fact the one that you needed the most. That means also more genetic variety.  '

Gets my vote...

Anything the SV in the Netherlands announce would have no effect whatsoever on the judge at Birmingham, he wants to split the breed into his type(1950's Alsatians) & the International type as seen in Germany

I much prefer the working type & always have done so. Just the same as my Border Collies & Beardies & as seen in my older Cavalier who is a lot more Spaniel than Toy ! Him & the cats make a d*mn good mouse hunting party

MM will you be going to watch Suzanne M judge at Scotland ??
R~

> Anything the SV in the Netherlands announce would have no effect whatsoever on the judge at Birmingham

How do you know?  Have you spoken to him since this announcement?  If it wasn't this perhaps the BBC programme has stirred people to reconsider and take action.  It's all to the good if extremes are to be excluded in either direction.

> It's all to the good if extremes are to be excluded in either direction.

So some good may have come about then.

This is a man who is still breeding from unhealth tested dogs & has no intention of changing his breeding habits, I have known him for over 40 years & he is a very anti German & is behind the push to get the KC to split the breed for the umpteenth time. I don't have to have spoken to him, if a court case that cost him 1,000s of pounds couldn't change his attitude to health testing his dogs & making them fit for purpose, no TV program will alter him.

I've shown against him with a rescue GSD bitch who not only had a better temperament than his dogs he was showing, but could out move them, He told(not asked)the judge that only his dogs should run off together for BOB as wait for it my bitch ran too fast & that is a bad breed fault !!!!! & guess what the Boxer woman who was judging(came from the same area as him)agreed & told me I should watch a"master"handler & teach my dog(er she was a bitch)to run slowly & put the choker up inder his ears !!!!

Sorry this man is a joke, one of his dogs got BIS at an Open show & when some people clapped his dog cr*pp*d itself & laid on the ground too frightened to move.

Hm this is an article totally related to the BBC program, is not from the German SV, but the Dutch SV. It predates the TV program by several years

Phew, I can understand withholding a Crufts qualifying place if you genuinely feel the dog unworthy, though even then it's up to the Crufts judge to decide which dogs he or she likes. But withholding VHC is just pure pettiness!

PS what happened at the show MM, did the judge tell him where to go or give in?

> his dogs are extreme very very long, short legged overly deep in chest, overangulated

You forgot to mention the terrified darting eyes, anxiety panting and the long narrow rough collie type head!

The 'gentleman' in question is now quite elderly and fortunately the entry represents his 'satellites' -  a small and dwindleing band.

No but it will be interesting to see the results, way too far for me to go just to watch.

I'll never own another show bred Beardie, unless a close friend's bitch that is working sheep is bred to a dog with sheep driving abilities

I don't know much Isabel, but from what I can gleam it's quite a shake up and came from the top brass in the S.V in Germany. 

I called the breed club this morning to have a moan about the construction of modern German Showline dogs after meeting a Zamp daughter and grandson this weekend and asked for details of working line breeders so I could check them out.  Anyhow I was told they had a meeting about the very same thing this morning after information from the top of the S.V.  I am hoping David Payne might have something on this website.

The judge gave him BOB & Best Puppy(despite the puppy dog refusing to be handled)she then judged the Pastoral group & gave him the Group & Best Puppy in Group. However when it got to BIS the judge asked for the dogs to be on loose leads & collars & excused his adult from judging because it wouldn't be handled & he didn't appear with the puppy-never seen him since in this area

He is a silly man, the dog was a veteran & @ Crufts he could have been the judge's type however he was probably feeling hard done to as the request to split the breed never got past the breed council stage !

He is still breeding & handling his dogs at shows(last saw him @ their show @ Newark early this year & all the dogs there were just like his)

This man sounds awful, and that certainly reflects in his entry, GSD's could really do without a breeder who has such bad practises.

I used to work with his sister-in-law who retired some years ago!

I am not an expert on GSDs, but neither the German type (like the Crufts BOB this year) or the extreme Alsation types appeal. I have seen several GSDs recently on walks or at the vets and they are appalling to watch - with back legs going in all directions and backs that would do a Greyhound proud.

Looking at the photos of the Lornaville dogs only Ch Marvid Marianna at Lornaville impresses me - some of the others look like they have Corgi blood in them!

It's a shame such a great breed has been spoled by extremists on either side.

Just had a look at the photos aswell Ch Marvid Marianna at Lornaville is the only one on there that was not overdone in front and back. How that go to that state is beyond me they don't even look nice, certainly not bred to work and would not be fit for purpose.

Pavlova got it right saying the veteran dog went to the wrong camp but did she know there were at least
7 dogs in the wrong camp and they were high profile breeders and exhibitors of total german types?
So what is their game?
Re Veteran, he was the only dog entered in the veteran.

Maybe the high profile breeders wanted to showcase the correct type of German Shepherd.

Well his attempt to prevent dogs that do not look like his own qualify for Crufts were a waste of time @ Richmond the Vet Bitch won her class & under a judge who didn't withold any pacings despite having a mixed entry of type !