http://pugglelove.co.uk/pugglelove%20v.2/buying.htm

Any comments on the 'AHT' view (scroll down) I know if I started giving my 'personal views' on the research of my employer I would be disciplined.

Also must of done lots of research on the 'Hybreed' issue when they can't even spell it!!!!

Angela

Whilst I understand your concerns, is this just not free advertising for them?

See your point, but really angers me though that they can quote such twaddle, isn't the AHT funded in large part by purebred dog breeders and the KCCT. And then they go and stab the funders in the back with this.
Angela

Puggle - pug cross beagle, not my idea of a good mix.

I know if I used my companies name without permission I would be liable to be sacked.
I use the AHT all the time for PRA testing but I bet the person quoted is just a sample tester and nothing more to say such things.

I would personally rather have a pedigree dog and know what it could suffer from and have it tested than a mutt who could potentially suffer from anything as severly affected dogs as just if not more  likely to be breed from into a cross breed line.

Emma

I wonder if Catherine's given permission to have her reply on there?

>>>isn't the AHT funded in large part by purebred dog breeders and the KCCT. And then they go and stab the funders in the back with this.<<<<

I know for a fact that the sbt folk all raised lots of money to help with the research/funding into L2 and HC in the past couple of years

Why not complain to the company this person works for?

>isn't the AHT funded in large part by purebred dog breeders and the KCCT

The AHT is a registered charity, so is funded by anyone who makes a donation.

By coincidence I saw my first beagle/pug cross the other day. Poor thing - it certainly hit every branch when it fell out of the Ugly Tree!

Have already contacted the charity concerned and the KCCT.

They look terrible !!!!!  Poor things !!  Pugs are such beautiful little dogs as are beagles.  Why can't they just accept the one breed.

For fear of starting a row here, I  do disagree with a lot of deliberate crosses for example the pug x beagles you mention , but have bought a pom/chi cross , we actually went out to by a purebred chihuahua I have always had KCreg (for what it is worth) dogs from reputable breeders. Accidentally came across this little one bred by a family I still have my fingers crossed their story was true and  it was a one off accidental mating even if I dont agree with keeping entire dogs together if they are just pets (my opinion others may challenge it)
Met both mum and dad at home and the whole human family, still in touch. Having research both breeds  I felt that the health problems and the similarity in size would mean tht this was a suitable cross. She is only 16/17wks old but so far the vet is very happy so are we she is robust and  in good health and lovely temperment - early days but doing well the litter was only two which would be usual for this breed.
Sorry I have hijacked the thread but I think we need to look very carefully at what is breed and how it is controlled 

Our breed has just started raising money for the AHT and eye testing!

Is it me but do many of those dogs in the photo's look extremely large chested and their legs look as though they are finding it hard to support such a weight and look a little misshaped?  Could be the pictures but a few of them look a bit distorted to me!

Furriefriends not having a go but hope that both parents and their relatives are clear of patella problems etc.

We've had Pom's for 28 years, an extremely fit breed, except for when it comes to breeding time and they live I would think on average 16 years, most of ours have lived to around this age.  They are a great breed and I hate looking at some sites that seem to be mixing such a wonderful breed quite a lot these days.

No objection to crossbreeds per se my first 'own' dog was a yorkie cross. What I do strongly object to though is sites like the one above which states that crossbreeds are healthier than purebred (notice purebred and not pedigree - all dogs have a pedigree). They state that  F1 (firstcross between purebred parents) are healthier than each of the parent breeds, this is only true if they are DNA ed clear of the parents health issues. Further crosses of F1 x F1 and F1 x parent breed will produce affecteds in the litters and I know several people that have bought dogs such as the pug x beagle to do this.
My breed is a generally healthy one there are a couple of issues that the breed clubs are researcing and all breed club members are required to health test prior to breeding. My breed deosn't have any healthtests required or recommended by the KC BUT breeders themselves have acted responsibly.
Angela

Yes both parents are free of patella problems I admit I only have the owners words for that. They also gave me copies of their dogs pedigrees ( at least I hope thats what they are !) Yes I know Ihave taken a risk but I am beginning to wonder how you can know everything even from a breeder. btw really like what I see of Poms hadnt thought about small breeds I have always been into larger dogs but would definitly consider one of the smaller spitz breeds/pom another time

Thanks for not beating me up LOL

I've forwarded the link to someone who knows Cathryn.

There is a breeder on that site listed as breeding 3-4 litters a year of Puggles!   Unbelivable.

>>>>What I do strongly object to though is sites like the one above which states that crossbreeds are healthier than purebred<<<<

and wont all those breeding crosses just love that as a selling point!

Hello, I'm new on here, but have been reading the posts for quite a while. I have had a look at the website for Puggles and
am rather envious of it. It's very professional. I breed hybrids myself, one of the smaller types, I won't mention the breeds as I realise it is thought of as advertising on this forum and frowned upon. They are very popular and mine are especially sought after as I have a well known reputation for breeding healthy animals with superb temperaments. They are not the result of accidental matings. The matings were planned to produce the characteristics people often want when looking for a pet dog. Small, but robust, wonderful temperaments, cute, intelligent, playful, cuddly, and can take any amount of exercise given without puffing, panting fainting or collapsing unlike some of the pedigree breeds that are bred by breeders on this forum.

To my certain knowledge they have no inherited defects and are the healthiest of any of the dogs I have bred over the past and long years.

Just the other side of the coin so to speak......

Liz

How can they be "planned to produce characterists"?  By the very nature of the outcrossing you are introducing random results.  They could physically and temperamentally resemble either parents, something in between or something barely resembling either.  As long as you are using these breeds in your production your puppies will always have the possibility of inheriting the defects that you abhor.  It would seem your scrumples do not extend to refusing to own the pure bred examples in order to produce these cross bred puppies. If it concerns you that either of the breeds you are using are not healthy in the whole why not breed towards a less exaggerated type by simply selecting from the healthy end of the spectrum than exist within the breed.
Whilst I have often envied responsible and respected breeders for their dogs I have never found myself envying their web sites!

> I breed hybrids myself, one of the smaller types

You do not breed hybrids, you are breeding xbreeds pure & simple. Hybrids are the result in breeding between two species & not two variants of the same species.

> Small, but robust, wonderful temperaments, cute, intelligent, playful, cuddly, and can take any amount of exercise given without puffing, panting fainting or collapsing unlike some of the pedigree breeds that are bred by breeders on this forum

I do not breed Cavaliers, but mine certainly do not collapse during exercise. All dogs puff & pant after heavy exercise & if you try to claim that yours don't then sorry you are misleading people

>To my certain knowledge they have no inherited defects and are the healthiest of any of the dogs I have bred over the past and long years.

How do you know what genetic conditions your dogs have, do you DNA test them ? Are there DNA tests for each of the breeds you use during your crossbreeding matings ? If so do you DNA test for both sets ? Do you do clinical tests ? Unless your are breeding Racing Greyhounds your dogs could have HD as no breed other than Racing Greyhounds is clear of HD. HD doesn't necessarily made a dog unsound. So yet another misleading statement

the only thing you are breeding is mutts
your comments are way off the mark reguarding pedigree dogs
i have had them for years, none of mine have trouble breathing or fainting and have all been healthy
i test mine
do you?
how can you tell your have no problems if you don,t test
may be you should visit a rescue centre and see the results of people breeding mutts

I agree wholeheartedly (oops Spelling ?) To me people who purposely breed cross breeds are in my humble opinion asking for trouble ....I agree how the h** do they know what is passed down to the puppies ...I agree there will always be accidental matings and those puppies born may live to be healthy and lovely pets but I must admit the continued use of purpose mating between different breeds whether for designer dogs or "better pets" frankly makes me angry ...

> By coincidence I saw my first beagle/pug cross the other day. Poor thing - it certainly hit every branch when it fell out of the Ugly Tree!

I saw one at a training class. It looked sort of like a pug with slightly longer fur - I wrongly guessed it was a pug crossed with a Shih Tzu. They paid a fortune for it because the guy's wife wanted a pug but he though the short muzzle was unhealthy. Their puggle has a muzzle as short as any pug I've seen.

> You do not breed hybrids, you are breeding xbreeds pure & simple. Hybrids are the result in breeding between two species & not two variants of the same species.

You will find that hybrids and cross breeds are one and the same thing.

> I do not breed Cavaliers, but mine certainly do not collapse during exercise. All dogs puff & pant after heavy exercise & if you try to claim that yours don't then sorry you are misleading people

I was not referring to Cavaliers. I only stated that some breeds of pedigree dogs due to standard deformities do have difficulties performing normal canine functions.

> How do you know what genetic conditions your dogs have, do you DNA test them ? Are there DNA tests for each of the breeds you use during your crossbreeding matings ? If so do you DNA test for both sets ? Do you do clinical tests ? Unless your are breeding Racing Greyhounds your dogs could have HD as no breed other than Racing Greyhounds is clear of HD. HD doesn't necessarily made a dog unsound. So yet another misleading statement

You have obviously not read my post properly.

Liz

>You will find that hybrids and cross breeds are one and the same thing.

That's a common mistake people make. True hybrids (like mules) are generally sterile.

>You will find that hybrids and cross breeds are one and the same thing.

Er no they are not

    Main article: Hybrid (biology)

A hybrid animal is one with parentage of two separate species, differentiating it from crossbred animals, which have parentage of the same species. Hybrids are usually, but not always, sterile

I did read your post

>cute, intelligent, playful, cuddly, and can take any amount of exercise given without puffing, panting fainting or collapsing unlike some of the pedigree breeds that are bred by breeders on this forum

Well Cavaliers are all this, as are toy/miniature poodles, lhasa apsos etc difference being they don't have"designer"names & they don't earn their breeders mega bucks

You are breeding cross breeds & nothing else.

& please anser my question what health tests do you do on your crossbreeds ?????????

I also wonder how these people who breed these crosses think they would be able to do so if someone didn't bred them the purebred parents of such outstanding health and fitness if pedigree dogs were no longer bred?

Seems they seldom go beyond the first generation cross, because as soon as you do then you incorporate the potential for both sets of hereditary problems of the parent breeds.

In fact those who advocate out-crosses to other breeds need to remember that where this has occurred in some breeds that problems have been brought into breeds that were not previously there through the out-cross breed.

To have a 'breed' the animals have to breed true, so you need to select for The breeding stock to have set characteristics.

The value of pure bred dogs is that within fairly narrow parameters you know what characteristics you will get.

The canine has wildly varying characteristics some of which will suit some people and would be anathema to others.

For example I can deal with copious amounts of dog hair from my double coated breed when they moult, but I would not be prepared to live with a breed that slobbered, and I would not want a coat that tangled and needed constant combing.

My breed can be to some annoyingly self willed, but I would hate to again live with a very needy and clingy type of dog, that needed my constant input and a regular job to do.

Most hereditary health issues are not the result of selection for particular characteristics, they are the result of negative genes piggy backing on the individuals that were used for breeding.

Many breeds had bottle necks in the gene pools (as the cheetahs have in the wild) mainly due to human conflict like the two World wars where numbers had to be reduced to a minimum, so narrowing the gene pool.

In my own breed the two main conditions that happily appear very rarely are eye conditions, both are now late onset as due to selection any dog not fit to hunt would be weeded out and not bred from, so the conditions we do have often don't appear until well after breeding age.

Epilepsy for example is fairly common in the dog as a species, and only counts as a breed problem if the incidence is higher than in the general population.

One of the most natural working breeds the Border collie has a whole plethora of inherited disease, yet they have nothing in their breed standard that is exaggerated, and true breeders are diligent in eye testing, Hip Scoring, DNA testing and hearing testing, the breed only became KC recognised a few decades ago, and the problems were there before that, so it isn't the fault of any breed standard..

Excellent post Barbara.

Liz,

To my certain knowledge they have no inherited defects and are the healthiest of any of the dogs

How do really know that though? Do you health test the dogs that you breed from? Sorry if I have misread your post but it gives me the impression that you assume?

Over the past 4 to 6 moths, the amount of cross breeds that have been pop up is getting OTT. Now the part i find most amusing is. They same people that buy/breed cross breeds keep going on about inherited diseases from purebreds and what they are doing is for the best of the dog. Just would like the likes of Liz to tell me one thing, how do you know that you are not breeding from inherited diseased dogs? I mean thats not something you will know, but at the same time we are told that cross breeds don't have inherited diseases, but how? as you are breeding from the same dogs that have it?.

What a load of crap, as someone who has spent years looking at the genetics of my dogs i can not find one thing that would be beneficial to a cross breed.

Also it's bizarre how it's only purebred dogs that have inherited diseases, as a result of breeding. Now what happens in the wild? With all animals!

Has Catherine responded to anyone?

>> Er no they are not
>
>     Main article: Hybrid (biology)
>
> A hybrid animal is one with parentage of two separate species, differentiating it from crossbred animals, which have parentage of the same species. Hybrids are usually, but not always, sterile
>

             Main article: Dog hybrid

A dog hybrid is the offspring of parents of two different purebred dog breeds, more commonly called a crossbreed or crossbred in animal breeding. Crossbreeding (parents of two different purebred breeds) results in offspring that may be stronger and healthier than either parent, an effect called hybrid vigour, but only if both parents are genetically sound. Many dog crossbreds (hybrids) have been given fanciful or portmanteau names, as in Labradoodle (purebred Labrador Retriever crossed with purebred Poodle.) Further generations of crossbreds bred to crossbreds lose the advantage of hybrid vigour, although they may still be called by the hybrid name, and may eventually be recognized as a separate purebred dog breed.

SRC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_hybrid

> but only if both parents are genetically sound.

Are yours?  In which, case why breed crossbreeds?  If people want crossbreeds as they believe this gives them a health advantage above buying from healthy pedigree parentage why wouldn't they give a home to the many languising on death row at the local pound.

You are not breeding hybrids, the hybrid vigour comes from combining genetic"material" from two different species. if you know anything about genetics & the theory of hybrid vigour, you would not be quoting from Wikipedia-after all they state that the cross breed know as Kyi-Leo, is now an accepted breed-however it is only an accepted breed by the American Rare Breed Association, which is not recognised by the AKC or the Am KC or the UK KC. the ARBA recognizes Dingoes as a breed, yet they cannot be owned outside of Australia as exporting Dingoes is illegal

I suggest you look for biological information based on the research done on real hybrids(like Mules etc)which are from two separate species(Horse & Donkey)Mules do show hybrid vigour as the are hardier than both parent species, but they can go no further than F1 generation as they are all infertile.

What you are doing is putting two animals of the same species of different variants together to produce a crossbred litter-there will be no hybrid vigour, the offspring can inherit mutual genetic conditions from each parent(for example GPRA, HA, Epilepsy in the case of "Labradors X Standard Poodles)plus they can also carry non mutual conditions (such as Sebaceous adenitis & Nacrolepsy)which will not appear in the F1 cross, but if the F1 generation are bred together they the non mutual conditions can & do appear, so infact these"healthier crossbreeds"will end with more genetic conditions that each of the original breeds

If you really wanted to breed so called"healthier"dogs then you should choose real mongrels, clinical & DNA health test them & then breed the healthiest with no genetic conditions together & disregard any that are not genetically & clinically healthy together & then do the same again. Of course you will need around 100 dogs & bitches-all unrelated(more DNA tests to discovery this) & have the facilities to either keep or dispose of unwanted offspring(rehome or PTS")

All the real pedigree dogs have at least one known genetic condition which will affect the quality of their life to some degreee, so putting any two breeds together will never produce offspring that are healthier than their parent breeds. Of course you would be practising Eugenics on your dogs-something the BBC program compared to Nazism !!!!!

Can you answer my question, do you have all your breeding stock fully health tested-ie DNA & clinically tested for all known conditions & if you breed from the F1 generation(which you should be doing)do you DNA & Clinically test them for all the mutual & non mutual conditions of their parent breeds) I've been asking this question, which you have yet to answer, for a while

can i please say that wiki is not considered by anyone as a valid, intelectual source- i'd have been laughed out of my lecture theaters if i'd ever used it, anyone else?- being that anyone can post whatever gibberish they wish on it.

as you see:

> A dog hybrid is the offspring of parents of two different purebred dog breeds, more commonly called a crossbreed or crossbred in animal breeding. Crossbreeding (parents of two different purebred breeds) results in offspring that may be stronger and healthier than either parent, an effect called hybrid vigour, but only if both parents are genetically sound. Many dog crossbreds (hybrids) have been given fanciful or portmanteau names, as in Labradoodle (purebred Labrador Retriever crossed with purebred Poodle.) Further generations of crossbreds bred to crossbreds lose the advantage of hybrid vigour, although they may still be called by the hybrid name, and may eventually be recognized as a separate purebred dog breed.
>

total rubbish :) except for the bit on fanciful names lol

Because the world and his wife, with absolutely no qualifications at all, can put up information on Wikipedia it's not recognised as a site for validated information.

Edit: Ditto Astarte - we posted at the same time!

very good and accurate post MM.

and i think we can assume the poster does not health test as the answer has not been volunteered yet.

how people can be daft enough to think that a cross is naturally heathier is beyond me, problem A + problem B does not equal "perfectly healthy!", it equals maybe a, maybe b, maybe neither, maybe both, maybe WORSE and totally unpredictable! the gibberish that gets spouted astounds me.

> What a load of crap, as someone who has spent years looking at the genetics of my dogs i can not find one thing that would be beneficial to a cross breed.
>
> Also it's bizarre how it's only purebred dogs that have inherited diseases, as a result of breeding. Now what happens in the wild? With all animals!

What happens in the wild is called evolution & the survival of the fittest, any genetic condition that affected the ability of the animal(or plant for that matter)to survive & breed meant that animal died without offspring & so the genetic condition either disappeared or only occured as a single recessive gene which wouldn't affect the individuals ability to survive

> very good and accurate post MM.

Thanks I didn't spend 5 years studying mammalian genetics for nothing then :-)

lol in all serious in my first class of first year we were warned that we would be given a fail mark if we dared try and reference wiki.

to the cross-breeder, might i suggest journal articles and accademic texts for your research? there are many books on canine genetics

> In which, case why breed crossbreeds?&nbsp; If people want crossbreeds as they believe this gives them a health advantage above buying from healthy pedigree parentage why wouldn't they give a home to the many languising on death row at the local pound

Exactly,and why breed them other than for money?If you look on any rescue website you can find any combination of cross you could possibly imagine all having been bred by accident or by people out to make money.They far outnumber the purebreds.

ah! i did wonder how you were so up on it- was going to ask if you had any recommended reading on canine genetics for me? i know there is a lot out there but is there any bible? (like book of the bitch is for breeding lol)

Id like to say if the truth be known most crossbreed breeders do it for the money.....  breeding for the sake of healthy animals ,as Jim Royle would say "my a**e ".....They are cashing in on this designer dog mentality and then say they are doing the dog world a favour .... Years ago my CKCS bitch accidentally mated a neighbours Llasa Apso (Thanks to a window cleaner leaving my back gate open) but ultimately it was still my fault ...She went on to have 4 healthy puppies and although I gave her as much care as if it had been a planned mating ....The pups were sold as crossbreeds plain and simple ,No fancy "pedigree" and for a nominal fee which incidentally I donated to the CKCS Rescue ...Not for the ridiculous prices asked today ...Sorry feel better now !!!!!

>Also it's bizarre how it's only purebred dogs that have inherited diseases, as a result of breeding.

I'm guessing your tongue is firmly in your cheek there, DMac! As we know, human beings are probably the least inbred species on the planet, and yet we have more inherited conditions at our fingertips than any other ... so where does that leave the 'outcrossing theorist'?

Most of my knowledge comes from zoological, biological & veterinary papers. I do try to keep up todate(with the help of the net & my veterinary friends)

There is quite a readable book that is made up of various papers collected by Jeff Sampson(the KC Genetist-don't laugh)& Anatoly Ruvinsky called The Genetics of the Dog it is quite expensive, but you can get it somewhat cheaper by doing a price comparison search & on the link there is part of the book

Don't confuse this with Malcolm Willis's earlier book-in which he states HD isn't just a polygenetic trait-but he recently backtracked & stated in court it was purely genetic(appeared for the plaintiffs & was on the losing side :-) for the first time ever)

thanks, i'll look into them

> What happens in the wild is called evolution & the survival of the fittest, any genetic condition that affected the ability of the animal(or plant for that matter)to survive & breed meant that animal died without offspring & so the genetic condition either disappeared or only occurred as a single recessive gene which wouldn't affect the individuals ability to survive

Also of course this only applies to conditions that will effect the wild animal reaching reproductive age and the usual lifespan in the wild, which can be pretty short.

I believe that most wild Canids do not live half the lifespan we expect our dogs to reach, and it is interesting that many conditions that affect our canines are late onset.  In other words didn't manifest until after breeding age.

I have a breed that is required to have stamina and work well into old age, and most conditions we are tackling seem to be late onset, and those that appeared early have been bred out or are very rare due to selection.

Jeangenie my tongue is firmly in my cheek!

And if anyone knows my breeding that would see it was tongue in cheek.

As for post a link to Wikipedia, good god

My toy breed is very fit and active and live well into their late teens.

Made me laugh on another dog site last night that someone with a toy x breed said that they'd taken their puppy to the vets at 12 weeks and they were told that due to it's hybrid vigour that the puppy was going to live well into it's 20's!!! Yeah right.  I think there are a couple of dogs that have lived well into their 20's and both of them were pedigree breeds.

> I believe that most wild Canids do not live half the lifespan we expect our dogs to reach, and it is interesting that many conditions that affect our canines are late onset.&nbsp; In other words didn't manifest until after breeding age.
>
> I have a breed that is required to have stamina and work well into old age, and most conditions we are tackling seem to be late onset, and those that appeared early have been bred out or are very rare due to selection.

so essentially many things are degenerative illnesses such as we get to- the body is not really designed to last as long as we need/make it do now

> someone with a toy x breed said that they'd taken their puppy to the vets at 12 weeks and they were told that due to it's hybrid vigour that the puppy was going to live well into it's 20's!!!

good god, a vet said that?? what tosh!