Just something I have been wondering about when being bored :)...
What do different breeders do to get the puppies they have bred health tested later in life?

It is obviously very important to know what the the siblings of the puppy you have kept are like health wise if you are to breed on from your puppy.
Looking at the online database of my breed it seems so many litters only have one or two of the puppies health tested, surely this is not enough to see if the litter of lets say 10 has been ok health wise (even just the two basics, hips/eyes).

There seem to be breeders who have most of their puppies health tested so what do these breeders do get the puppy buyers to do it?
One of my breeders (well my dogs breeder) would ask slightly more moeny for the puppies... and then give money back to anybody who health tested at two years old!
She would also organise group testing days, meaning people could get their puppy tested for slightly cheaper price and at the vets the breeder trusted...
What else can be done to kindly push people to health test :)?

If they bought the pup as a pet only I think the breeder would have to offer to pay for health tests!

Contracts.  State in your contract of show pups, that health testing, must be done before breeding.  For pet pups, have them spayed or neutered before they leave you.  Then you know they wont be breed. 

Some health tests though, which have scores of either clear, carrier, or affected, are relatively easy to guarentee puppy buyers (and prospective show homes) of results.  If I breed a VWD clear to another VWD clear, the pups are automatically clear.  So in that case, I wouldnt say they have to health test for VWD. 

But things that can be hidden like patellas or LCPD, those are tested for no matter what.  But I dont put down exactly what they need to test for, just that "breed relevant health tests need to be completed".  If you go to breed sites, or know anything about the breed (which puppy buyers better! or they aint getting one) you can know what to test for. 

But things change too, as a couple years ago, VWD was thought to not affect min pins, but now it is shown to have affected min pins. 

As health testing is so expensive (Hip scoring over £200, only Around £30 of that goes to the BVA who score them) it really is not realistic to expect Pet owners to test. 

The only ones likely to are those that are planning to breed,a and to ensure those do all my pups endorsements stay on until health testing has been done and acceptable results achieved.

In practise in my numerically small breed around 20% of all registered pups are Hip scored and eye tested..

As Barbara just said, not cheap to health test!
OH just paid £350.00 for two x hips and elbows, vet quoted £299 EACH!!
Also have to pay for yearly eye tests, who would pay all that out for a pet??

Wow our vets are cheap £188 all inclusive for hips and elbows combined.

Our vet charges about £85 for hips and eyes are about £45. I am considering getting Optigen testing done  for PRA,  on a litter due soon. Does anyone have an idea on how much it costs all in. I looked at their website which gives a price for the test, but what about blood extraction (Vet fees) and postage (fedex, I presume?).

Thanks 

I have paid my pets to be tested (eyes/hips), we had no intention to breed.
Must be a cultural thing and what have you been used to!
In Finland it is quite normal to get your pet dog tested to give the breeder data on health and also just to know yourself...
I have just checked and in my breed 40-48% of the dogs born 2000-2005 had ther hips xrayed, by no means are these all for breeding.
I just found the numbers very low looking at the data but then have noticed differences in amount of dogs tested in different breeders data and that made me wonder how do these people get their puppy owners to test :)

With a  puppy in my breed costing around £600 to pay out at least half that just to Hip Score and eye test once would simply be prohibitively expensive for the breeder, also Pet owners see no benefit to risking their Pet under anaesthetic just for data gathering for the breeder.  I find about half of my puppy buyers don't even transfer the ownership to their names with the Kennel club as it involves a fee.

So in my breed only those likely to want to breed, or very serious about health, or the rare person who might want to do Agility is likely to Hip Score.

crespin are you seriously suggesting i should get all my 8 week old pups neutered before selling them to a non show home????

For pet pups, have them spayed or neutered before they leave you.  Then you know they wont be breed. 

Over my dead body!

I don't think most breeders could keep a litter to a year of age or new owners would wait that long ;)

I find about half of my puppy buyers don't even transfer the ownership to their names with the Kennel club as it involves a fee.

Yes I have found that too, but kc have brought in online litter reg and now transfer of ownership.  Definately saves some hassle.

For my pups they get GPRA tested by a DNA (cheek swab) whilst still a puppy.  But i endorse all puppies so if they want to breed they have to do well in the showring as well.

I think personally that the KC should have a word with breed clubs to get them to try and persuade members to health screen, then once most people are doing it they can make it mandatory for the health tests to be done in that breed.  I know all our breed clubs have stated strongly for the last year that health tests should be done on all breeding stock.

Emma

Edited to say - Puppies being neutered so young is not something I would do.  Males dont mature properly without their bits and end up like a clingy puppy forever.  I have been advised by trainers and other breeders to never neuter before 18 months in males and after first season in females.

>For pet pups, have them spayed or neutered before they leave you.  Then you know they wont be breed. 

>Over my dead body!

Likewise!

> I think personally that the KC should have a word with breed clubs to get them to try and persuade members to health screen, then once most people are doing it they can make it mandatory for the health tests to be done in that breed.  I know all our breed clubs have stated strongly for the last year that health tests should be done on all breeding stock

I beleive that the KC asked breed clubs many years ago to draw up codes of ethics.

My breed club insists that all members dogs are Hip Scored and Eye tested (test must be current under 12 months before mating) before being bred from, and have now asked breeders to check Kidney function too.

Here, spaying and neutering can be done as young as 12 weeks.  Sometimes, you also keep pups longer in my breed.  Most min pins dont go home to people until they are close to 4 months of age.  There are reasons for this, but I am not getting into them (as to why they go home later).

You could also put in a contract, if you arent willing to keep pups longer (as I gather now, altering dogs is done later in the UK, after first season?)  that the pet stock must be altered by set age, if not, you can take the dog back. 

So I was commenting, on what was customary in my breed.  Some pups do go at 8 weeks, not seen to much in my breed at all for them to go so young. 

I know in USA they are advocating early spay and castration, but there are very many good reasons why this would be abhorrent to a genuine dog lover.

This link gives a balanced study on the effects of early neutering http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf not least of which is the lack of mental maturity and the effects on growth.  I expect in a toy breed like yours the Peter Pan syndrome may actually be something that people drawn to a toy breed may like.

> that the pet stock must be altered by set age, if not, you can take the dog back. 
>

I don't know about how the law stand in Canada but in the UK, unless you kept actual ownership of a puppy which would not be acceptable to most puppy purchasers, you would not be able to demand back a puppy whatever it said on your contract.

I don't know about how the law stand in Canada but in the UK, unless you kept actual ownership of a puppy which would not be acceptable to most puppy purchasers, you would not be able to demand back a puppy whatever it said on your contract.

It has never had to be taken to court, so I dont know about it here either.  It is basically a scare tactic, to make sure one alters them.  Most people will do what you say, so they dont loose their dog.  I dont know if it can actually be done, but most people arent willing to take that chance. 

>It is obviously very important to know what the siblings of the puppy you have kept are like health wise if you are to breed on from your puppy.

I couldn't agree more!  I think there is much information on siblings that can be lost to a breeder without feeding back.  I'm all for a life long relationship and I've been known to visit and bring the dog to see them, sometimes travelling quite a distance. Sending photos and updates, informing them of hip scores, health etc, etc, etc.  I think that's invaluable.

We had our Shep's hip scored, primarily because they were going to do agility and we needed to know that there wasn't an underlying problem.  Likewise the information was fed back to both breeders. No intention to breed either.

It is basically a scare tactic, to make sure one alters them.

I don't WANT my puppy buyers to neuter their dogs as a matter of course. If I can't trust them, I've not picked the right buyers. I feel it's up to each buyer if they neuter or not -not me.

> I feel it's up to each buyer if they neuter or not -not me.

......and this is what UK buyers are used to and expect.

But dont you put endorsements on your dogs?  As I understand, and I could be wrong, but doesnt that mean they cant breed from the dog (or at least not be able to register the pups)? 

Yes, but that does not mean people must or will neuter.

Unfortunately, even though endorsements are in place, it doesn't mean that the dogs can't be bred from, just that they cannot be Kennel Club registered. :-( My pups are all sent out endorsed and the new owners are told that I would only lift them if the test results were satisfactory, and that the dog was doing well, in whatever interest they were doing. i.e. working (gundog), show, agility, obedience......

just wish the k/c would make it so if the dogs/bitches are not tested to the relevant problems in the breed  i know different breeds have different health issues )  then the k/c should not allow them to be k/c reg
whether this would be a prob as certain tests cant be done till the dog is one year old but i think if not tested after a certain age limit and dogs were nt allowed to reg it might just tighten up some of the health problems more and more breeds seem to be having

It is the same as the inactive registration in the USA, so no need for neutering there either to prevent AKC rtegistered pups.

I agree with MarianneB I also don't encourage my buyers to neuter. At least not until the puppies are fully adult. What if one turns out to be a stunner and the new owners want to show it. Or what if the puppy is returned to you for some reason and also turns out to be a good 'un. I know of two cases in which these scenarios apply, one was bought as a pet and is now a big winner and one was returned to the breeder and she is now winning at champ shows with it.

My first champion who now has CC's' and some champ show group placings etc came back to me at 8 1/2 months old.  Another champion I bred wasn't shown until he was nearly two when his owners decided to have a go at showing.  A friend had back a lovely bitch that is shown but sadly she can't be bred from because she was already spayed :(