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Hi folks, looking for some advice please. It's a long story but i feel it's necessary to tell it so you get the full picture - please bear with me!

I had four dogs(mum and her three pups), all living happily together. Mum is seven years old, 'pups' four years, so not pups at all now! They are two sisters and one brother, all get along really well. Mum is boss, followed by her son, then the two girls. One of the girls had a litter in April '06 (planned mating, NOT her brothers offspring!), all was well, pups went off to new homes but due to a change in owners circumstances (or so they said!) a male was returned when he was nine months old. Seemed very submissive, if he heard a man raise his voice, he'd drop to the floor, ears back and sometimes urinate. If said man waved his arms too, poor dog was beside himself! Can't prove it but i'm sure he'd been abused. Never scared of women though and slowly got over his fear of men.

He was accepted back into the pack, but seemed intimidated by the male. No obvious bullying, but he'd never eat in his presence and seemed subdued when he was around. He was definetly bottom of the pecking order, though there was never any hint of aggression from either dog and he played quite happily with the girls.

Looking back, i should have left it at that, but i always felt sorry for him, so when a friend lost one of her dogs to cancer and she was looking for a companion for her other dog which was pining away (a speyed bitch), it seemed right to rehome him with her. He'd been back with me one year by then, so this was last October.

He settled in really well, her dog perked up and everyone was happy until he broke down part of her fence and escaped in July of this year. Thankfully, dog warden picked him up next day, but with a broken fence she didn't know what to do with him, so once again he came back to me while she made the garden secure. At least, i thought that was the plan but it looks like he's here to stay and he's not the submissive pup he was when he left!

Fine at first, but a week after he came back my girls came into season. Timing couldn't have been worse! I probably should have anticipated trouble, but i didn't and there was one hell of a fight. I separated them initially, but reintroduced them after a few days, my fault, i should have waited till after the season finished (aint hindsight a wonderful thing?) and there was another, bigger fight. Both were injured and neither looked like giving in, it took two of us to separate them. They've been separated ever since, but if they're ever going to live together i need to find a way to sort this out - or let THEM sort it out, preferably without anymore bloodshed!

I've had two offers of homes for the 'new' male, but would rather keep him if it's at all possible - poor little bugger doesn't know if he's coming or going and he really is the sweetest thing. So is my other male though, but at the moment they hate each other!

Girls season has just finished and i've bought two basket muzzles 'cos i'm not risking another fight when they do meet. I'm going to make the dog run bigger and divide it so i can keep them apart if necessary, but would obviously rather have them live harmoniously together. Is this possible after what's happened? I thought about putting them in the garden for a few minutes (supervised)wearing the muzzles, but at the moment they're still snarling at each other through the dogrun mesh so i don't think the time's right yet - will it ever be? Will things settle back down again, or will each resent the other now? If it does settle, i realise it will flare up again next season so I was thinking of neutering the younger male, but have been told it may not help, especially if he's now the top dog. Does anyone have experience of this?

At the end of the day, i want what's best for the dogs, so any advice would be most welcome.

Your expecting a lot to have two entire males who have not grown up together to be Friends when entire bitches are coming in and out of season.

Those I know with both sexes entire make sure they watch very closely for the signs of a bitch coming in season or favouring one male and take the bone of contention out of the picture.

I think the main issue is that you bought in the second male at this time and expected them to get on.  Once things have settled if the males are both normally easy going with their own sex they may become Friends again, or else you may have to accept that you will have to run your household so that they never meet and allocate female companions to each.

> Your expecting a lot to have two entire males who have not grown up together to be Friends when entire bitches are coming in and out of season.
>

Totally agree with Brainless here, thats a lot to ask of 1 entire male let alone 2.
I would be worried about aggression and the want to be top dog in order to gain mating rights and that could cause endless problems when each bitch comes into season which is twice a year for both of them!

> or else you may have to accept that you will have to run your household so that they never meet and allocate female companions to each.

I dont think thats fair on dogs or owners :( but its what might happen and would mean you interrupting and taking time away from your previous dogs and also the routine your dogs you already owned already have, alot of upheavel.

Totally agree with Brainless here, thats a lot to ask of 1 entire male let alone 2.


I think you are being a little unfair on the OP., she has not brought in  another entire male,  she has taken back one of her pups,  something most responsible breeders should do.. 

Sorry can`t give you any advice,  hopefully someone will be able to help you...but it may be best if you find him a new home, if the situation is upsetting your pack

Good luck.

> think you are being a little unfair on the OP

Im just saying that to have 2 entires will be harder then 1 with an entire bitch around, are you saying thats not true?
Its good she brought him back like any good breeder would do, its the nature of the job but still doesnt mean to say its gonna be easy.

Rach don't you just have two dogs, and until very recently only had one, your first dog? I'm not wanting to cause offence but sometimes it is better if only those with actual experience give advice :-)

Tigger2, this is a forum for sharing advice and experience, I'm not saying I agree or not with Rach85 but I really don't see what how many dogs a person owns has to do with their level of experience or ability to offer an opinion.

For the op, if you feel that the current home offer is genuine and a forever home then it may be less stressful all round for the other dogs if he was to find a new home but I can understand you being worried about him possibly bouncing again.  You were there and witnessed the fights, if they really meant business and often in situations like that they do and will keep going till one is down, me personally I wouldn't be happy leaving them alone unsupervised together again.  I would make sure they had seperate areas other than when supervised.

You've been lucky so far especially given that you have three siblings and a mum living together, which is lovely but it may just be pushing that luck to expect another sibling to rejoin in that situation.  I hope it works out for you and the lad in question whatever you decide :-)

Im just saying that to have 2 entire will be harder then 1 with an entire bitch around, are you saying thats not true

Of cause that is not what I am saying , the OP is  obviously aware of the pitfalls of  having two entire  males...  but she has not naively just taken on another dog without any thought to the situation..she  has fallen into the situation of having to  take back one of her pups.... and having come back to her twice, is now in the predicament of two males not getting on..

I guessed she was after  any help or advice on how to deal with  this situation... not just pointing the obvious out.

Thanks for the advice everyone (and for the support Jackbox! much appreciated). Main reason i'm reluctant to rehome him again is that i really thought he'd found his forever home last time, it seemed perfect (and the one before come to think of it!) yet here i am in the same situation again. If, for whatever reason, he's returned again i think it will be even harder for him to fit back in with the pack.

I'm seriously considering neutering one of them, just need to establish which one is more dominant and then neuter the underdog (i'm told neutering the more dominant one would probably make the situation worse, can anyone comment on this?) I'm also under the impression that neutering both males won't make much difference, as it'd lower the status of both when the idea of neutering would be to widen the gap between the two dogs.

Normally when the girls are in season i separate them all for four weeks (not taking any chances!), mum is speyed so she keeps her son company, the two intact girls stay together with no problems. My setup allows me to keep them apart completely, and i naiveley thought the other male would join his grandma and uncle.

If neutering will help, i'll book him in this week, but which HIM??

There is nothing unfair in what I said the OP brought in (for whatever reason, which is irrelevant to the situation) another entire male dog when they already had a full male while a bitch was in season, so problems should have been expected.  If the poster wants to keep all the dogs then like many multi-dog, households they will have to rotate their time and accommodation, this is the reality when dogs cannot get on, be it temporarily or permanently.

Personally I wouldn't upset things even more by neutering, if your able to keep them apart then I would and try and see how they get on well after the season has finished.  Males that normally get on will do so again if they have no reason to fight.

Two males no matter how good pals are not going to get on when there is an in season bitch to compete for, especially two the same age!  This is even more so with these having been apart for some time.

but I really don't see what how many dogs a person owns has to do with their level of experience or ability to offer an opinion.

When the question is about keeping more than one male dog together with bitches, and the person answering has never kept anything but one dog and one bitch together, then I think it is VERY relevant. :)

For what it is worth, I have not found neutering to make any difference at all when it comes to male dogs falling out with each other or indeed to mating and tying. I have one entire male and two neutered and they all act as if they were entire.

Just to clarify, the males are NOT the same age, one is four and has always been dominant over the newcomer, who is two.

When he returned, the females were NOT in season, even i'm not that stupid! :) I knew their season was due, but thought i had few more weeks before the fun started.

Havind never had two adult, intact males before, and in view of the fact that the younger one came back and immediately fitted in as he had before, i was totally unprepared for the fighting. I DID watch their interactions, as irrelevant of their hormonal status i thought their may be problems because he'd been away for a year. I was pleasantly surprised as there was nothing, no signs of aggression whatsoever right up until the first fight.

I'm not blaming the dogs at all, i realise they're just doing what instinct tells them.

Hi Kiskasmom,
just reading this thread am going to make a comment... if your boys are 4 and 2 and you have no reason to have litters from either of them, then why don't you get them both done at the vets together both can recover together? It might take 6 weeks until the testosterone is worn off, but I am sure you would be doing both guys good in the long run with living with entire bitches and not being allowed to mate ever ? Then any barneys they might have after you will know it is only jealousy or items they are fighting over and not the right to breed so less serious maybe ? Great you have decided to keep this poor lad on now for the rest of his life. I had my entire male done at 7 and he calmed down from being the macho man with other male dogs a lot. 

I agree with other posters re: neutering - from the sounds of it your boys have taken a serious dislike to each other, they have fought over a major resource - girl in season - and I personally (having been in this position) would be looking among the people that have shown an interest for a forever home for the younger boy. IMO the dogs and you will be happier that way. And again IMO - leave testicles where they are. ;-)

Looking at this from a different perspective....

If you have an excellent home waiting for an older male, but are reluctant to place this boy in case he 'bounces' again, would it be possible to place the older male instead?

In response to what Tigger2 said a few posts ago just to refresh this is what Tigger2 said

Rach don't you just have two dogs, and until very recently only had one, your first dog? I'm not wanting to cause offence but sometimes it is better if only those with actual experience give advice :-)

I thought this was a little narrow minded this being a forum and everyones entitled to an opinion and who says you know more then me from what youve seen on here?
Just to clear up for you and your guesses on my dog knowledge my family has always had dogs from toy breeds to Giant breeds and I have grown up around dogs and trained them, looked after them and helped with matings, so please dont insult me by saying I am not able to give advice because you dont agree with what I say or whatever, just wanted to clear this up as its a insult which needed to be addressed and sorry to intrude on the thread as I had nothing else to say until Tigger2 had to have a go, cheers :)

In response to magica, i have bred from the older male and intend to again - before anyone asks, i have shown him(stopped because i don't have time) he's an excellent example of his breed(IMO), his hips are 0/0, eyes clear.

In response to lincolnimp, i couldn't possibly rehome the 4 year old, it would break my heart! My four existing dogs are here to stay no matter what.

Still confused about what to do, i suppose if you ask six people you'll get six different answers, but thanks for everyones suggestions.

> Just to clear up for you and your guesses on my dog knowledge

Indeed your vast dog knowledge is there for everyone to see...like when you were asking last year if you should get your dogs nails cut as they are very long. And asking if your dog that wasn't walked in the morning then caged for 7 hours was bored. And asking for advice because you want to 'stud your staff' that is currently a puppy, asking how much you could charge for him etc. That's the problem with the new star system on here - people who merely post a lot (not necessarily anything of any use to anyone) gain lots of stars then people new to the board may actually think they know what they are talking about

I try to limit my advice to things I have personal (hands on) experience of, rather than things I've read about :-)

Oh dear!!
Have I hit a nerve? I dont have to explain myself to you Tigger2 and if you say you NEVER ask for advice when your unsure then I would say thats very untrue wouldnt you? Are you saying you never have to ask for advice or more to it a second opinion or are you all knowing and never need to ask advice as you know everything?
Just because I ask for  SECOND opinion doesnt mean I dont know anything about the subject myself does it??

You are so assuming and its a bad trait to have in a forum as you know nothing apart from what Ive written, so doesnt give good grounds to start ear bashing me when I rightly defended myself against your insult saying I had no right to give advice?????

And the crate dscusison wasnt anything along them lines about being bored????

I have hands on knoweldge of exactly what the OP was asking for, dont know where you feel you got the right to say what people can or can not have a say on a puiblic forum?? Not your right so just let people speak.

kiskasmom Im sorry you feel you didnt get the reply you wanted, but when 2 males have had a fight and one like you mentioned it is very hard to get them back on track, and if your honest with yourself, is it fair on your dog who you previously had to have his whole life altered when the new pup has had homes offered to him?
I know you dont want to part with either and I really do understand but if they dont get on you have to step back and think of what is best for the dogs even if its not best for you and your feelings :(
The pup you rehomed as he was one of yours and bravo for doing so as many wouldnt so pat on the back for that :) but he wasnt meant to stay was he, being truthful?

Bringing in a male is always a risky business espicially when hes already producing testorone and having hormones and this small incident might have a lasting effect, this is what I would do (personally :) ) I would try to rehome him to save my current dog and to avoid anymore fights but then thats because I strongly dont believe in bringing a dog home and keeping it if the current pack dont get on with it and then having to upheave all the other dogs just for one dog which isnt really settled in anyway and could do better elsewhere, its your choice of course and no one is to tell you what to do but maybe you should let someone else home him and just see how he gets on? As you say hes up and down and been here and there, but being around your older male is upsetting him even further and not teaching him good lessons for social skills etc, and vice versa as your old dog isnt needing the stress of a younger pup and needing to re-fight his ground as no dog wants to have to watch his back constantly or be pushed out of the family, the kindest thing would be to rehome the young dog in in my eyes..

I hope you find a way which is best for all of you and let us know what happens xx

It's not that i didn't get the response i wanted, I DO want different viewpoints so i can consider them all. You're right in what you say about unsettling the rest of the pack, ultimately that's my main concern. IF the boys settle down again that'll be fantastic and it's what i'm hoping for...but i realise my wishes aren't what's important here.

I have ordered a new panel for the dogrun - was thinking of getting one anyway as it will be useful, this situation has just hastened the purchase!

I started trying to reintroduce them yesterday. My son and i (he's 18 and 6' tall so able to cope if things turn nasty!) each had a dog on the lead wearing a muzzle. We walked them past each other a few times and both had agood sniff. Had one growl, but i quickly stopped that and they seemed to settle down. After a few minutes tails were wagging and they were trying to play (with the humans, not each other). They sat next to each other and SEEMED quite comfortable but the muzzles are staying on for a while yet! I'm not as daft as they seem to think!:) Session only lasted a few minutes, my plan is to do it every day, gradually increasing the time they spend togther.

Neutering is still an option, as is rehoming, but i want to try this first and see if they can get along. It's a breed that is very sociable and bred to live in a pack so i'm (very cautiously!) optimistic. Dreams sometimes come true, and this would be mine, but all options are still open at this point.

Great news that they have been OK with each other in your garden and having little training sessions like that will help them realise to become buddies rather than sexual rivals :) lots of fun and treats they will realise to be together is a good thing- it will just take time for them to trust each other and more importantly for you to trust them being together ...Just inquiring what breed are your lads ?

It sounds like your doing great with them responding well to each other for short periods :)
Its like you say small and often is best to avoid any undue stress on either dog, but if they are wagging their tails and sniffing its all good signs but again like you said dont get too hopeful just yet but sounds like things are going well!! :)
Good Luck and keep us posted on how your getting on!

didn't think i was allowed to say which breed?...i suppose the post will be removed if that's correct. They are very sweet natured (usually!) Siberian Huskies.

Mentioning your breed in connection with litters is frowned upon as it could be seen as advertising pups for sale. You can mention them otherwise, especially when breed is relevant to the post.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Lori

Just a quick update. We've progressed from muzzles and no longer use them, they'll now lay happily together in the living room with the family and the other dogs. I've been keeping them both on a lead in case one of them lunged, but they seem to be quite happy after an initial sniff, even lay with their backs touching a couple of times!:)

We're not out of the woods yet as they still growl at each other through the dogrun mesh when they first go out, but after seeing how they were two weeks ago, i'm amazed they can even be in the same room together. I'll keep taking things slowly so that i can quickly nip any aggression in the bud. Hopefully, they can be friends again given time. The younger one is showing signs of wanting to play but i don't think the older dog is ready yet. Fingers crossed, we'll have a good outcome and i can come off the tranquillisers, lol.

As they say males fight for breeding rights and bitches if they fight for breathing rights, so with the boys with a reason for fighting removed you have a good chance of peace returning as they were friends before.

Fingers all crossed. :)

i had 3 males living with bitch.s in season no problem,they were fcr boy one was a stud dog,

it was the bitches that were the problem when coming into  in and out of season.

good luck

It does depend a lot on breed and the Gundogs seem to be able to have studs living together with some more primitive and especially guarding/Terrier breeds having entire males together with bitches in season is asking for trouble.