Hello everyone,
Wonder if you can help, have got a 2.5 year old staffy female called Penny, we got her as a rescue dog at 4 months old from a friend - his sister's boyfriend had attacked both the owner and Penny with a knife (although no injury was caused to Penny) and so she had to be rehomed.
Penny used to go to work with my boyfriend every day who is a mechanic.  Unfortunately when she was a puppy, one of the men who occasionally work at the workshop thought it would be funny to wind her up with an air line, which is compressed air (like you blow your tyres up with in a car).  Since then, apart from my boyfriend, anyone who even goes near the air-line she tries to attack and she has actually bitten the guy who did it to her since then.
Since that day she hasn't gone to work with my boyfriend, as he felt it unfair to muzzle her all day when it wasn't her fault that she was being aggressive.  She would also bark at anyone who would walk past her and 'guard' my boyfriend's tool box.  As I said now she doesn't go to work anymore, she stays at home.  As I am a teacher I get home early and my dad pops in during the day to look after her.
At home she is a different dog with us, you would never have known she was a problem until the last few months.  She gave birth to a planned litter in April, and was a terrific mother with no problems and her behaviour was fine.  Since the puppies left in early July, she has displayed aggressive tendencies towards other dogs which she has never done before.  We have another male and female staff who she is fine with, but in meeting other dogs in the park she growls and snaps and goes to attack them.  She is muzzled when we walk her now because we cannot risk her biting another dog or person for obvious reasons.  She also loved being let off lead but because of her behaviour I will only do that if I can see there is no one else in the field that I take her to play on.  She has started to go for people when they come in our house, but we noticed that it is only men.  I have female friends who come over, and she doesn't have a problem at all, she ignores them in fact.  When I took her to the vet today, (she is being neutered today), the vet nurses said you wouldn't know she had a problem.  My boyfriend and I also noticed that she never attacked the woman who worked at his workshop either.  Yet with men she is jumpy, aggressive, and I think it's because whenever she's been hurt or taunted it's been by a man.
She gets walked for an hour per day but I have taken her on a sponsored walk before which was 8 miles long and she didn't tire then, so I know she is more than capable of the exercise!!
Obviously I am really concerned about her behaviour but don't know how it can be fixed if it's just men that bother her - she is not like it with my boyfriend, but he is her master so that would explain that. We do have problems with her barking sometimes at night when she hears noises which our other two dogs don't do, and if this could also be fixed that would be great but we understand this is not so important; if we could get everything else sorted out then the barking we will live with.  The aggression we cannot because we can't trust her, and I know that feeds down to her and she picks up on it, so it's a vicious circle.
Has anyone got any ideas, I spoke to someone who does the Amichien bonding technique and she said I need to look into making sure she never feels she has to be in charge, but it's not possible at 4 in the morning when she has heard a noise and she's barking at a fox or someone on the industrial estate starting a car up behind our house!  Even though I would go downstairs to check it out and tell her to be quiet.  The male-aimed aggression is a real worry and don't know how to get over it...she's being neutered today so understand she will be grumpy anyway, but really could use some advice from you all as I don't want to lose her but I'm the last one in the family fighting for her now...

Firstly wow that was a lot of text to read.  Here is a load for you to read now.

My suggestion is to crate train, firstly in the home.  She needs to have a place that is hers, nothing bad ever happens to her in the crate, food happens in the crate.  Dont fuss her when she is in their as you want her to eventually go to the crate as a safe place on her own when she wants to get away from people.  All what I have read is taught behaviour but just the ones you dont want.

So buy a crate, put blankets etc in there.  Have her in it while you are watching tv for the first week, see if she will go in with a chew or something if she doesnt automatically go to investigate.  Build up the time and then close the crate while watching tv.  When she is in the crate ignore her (very important), she doesnt exist when she is in it.  You will eventually need to put her in it at night, this will stop a pacing behaviour that leads to random barking.  She may create like hell the first few nights when she finally realises she cant get out but ignore her.  No telling off and no praising.  Once she likes her crate it will happen reasonably quickly if she is a smart girl you need to now have your boyfriend take her to work, maybe just for an hour or so to begin with.  So its a safe place in a place she feels threatened.  Again ignore her, no one must approach her.  If she starts barking a lot place a blanket over the crate to calm her down for a bit and then slowly uncover one side when she settles.

The crate can then be used at home while people are visiting, try to have her in the room with you while you are chatting etc.  After about 6 weeks (or longer).  You can start to leave the door open, in theory if enough people have visited she will either ignore them if they ignore her or go into her crate.

As for the snapping at other dogs when out and about you are probably going to need to go to a few training classes so she can socialise in a controlled way.  But in the mean time you need to cut off her behaviour.  When you see a dog coming sit her down, facing you DO NOT let her turn round to eyeball them. Everytime she gets up give a firm no and sit her back down facing you, this is usually where a choke or half choke come in but dont use one until you know how to effectively.  When she gets this idea you can get other peoples dogs to come closer and closer until they are almost brushing past her.  If she starts to pull, bark, growl or anything she sits when on the lead until you decide to move.  (Keep the muzzle on for now just so she doesnt take it out on you which can happen)

That should give you enough to start working on until you can get some professional training advice from someone who has met your dog in person.

Keep us posted

Emma

Do you think the crate would work even though she sleeps outside with the other two?  Also she's just come back from being neutered and is very very dopey, hardly moving...I feel so bad for her, feel like I'm a bad owner doing that to her, even though I know it's for her own good!!

Do you think the crate would work even though she sleeps outside with the other two?
Yes, its all about her own little space.  Eventually and I mean in a years time you can remove the cage all together and the safe place will just be a blanket or a basket.  But you need to start with the crate first.

Also she's just come back from being neutered and is very very dopey, hardly moving...I feel so bad for her, feel like I'm a bad owner doing that to her, even though I know it's for her own good!!
To be blunt if being nice worked she would behave perfectly already, I would let her heal for a couple of days first before starting all this as it will be a shock to the system.  The old saying is true, you have to be cruel to be kind.  It will pay off in the long term.  You have to remember if I locked you in a room you would not be hurt by it.  The worst you would be is annoyed at not being able to do as you please.  You and the room is the same as a dog in a crate expect she has a 360 degree windows.

Emma

that's what's so frustrating, because our other two are really good dogs and do as they're told, very social, lovely dogs, which highlight her behaviour all the more so.  Will try out the crate next week, she's been through enough for one day I think.  She just sleeping off the anaesthetic, never seen her so calm!

Hi,
I think Malibu has given you some excellent advice! The poor dog has been through some very cruel incidents,
a person would go to a counseller.
poor girl!!

Denese

It sounds so similar to the problems I had with my bull terrier Snoop after I studded him. He was a good dog off lead until he was 4 and sired with a bitch. His aggression is only at other male dogs not people, but is very upsetting so I sympathise, I've had many other dogs and you think well I've got them sorted what am I doing wrong with this one.... well its nothing... she just has more issues than the others in your home. I'm sure she would not remember at 4 months what happened with the knife incident so forget about it- not being callous but you might pity her early start and make allowances with her behaviour because of this happening to her. She will pick up on that. The more worry I would have is with people- men in general, this has happened due to this work mate of your OH with the air thingy. She no longer trusts men at all, they have upset her, with all her hormones all over the place with becoming a mum has made her more of a cow for you to manage. She will calm down only it will take some months. Funny you say that she ignores your female friends and dislikes men in general- well I would be more worried about her ignoring people as a normal staff's are always in your face saying hi, I would get everybody to ignore her including yourself when you come into the room. She sounds a very unhappy bunny that with anyone coming into her space could lead her to go for them at the moment. Any attitude from her with people men or women in your home and put her away telling her on no uncertain terms that behaviour is not allowed. I would muzzle my dog, he also had a harness and I would get out my front door and if he growled I would turn around and go straight back in doors my dog soon realised him being a git with anything and he would have no fun. I would just blank him for a while. He does wait for me to tell him to go through an open door now, also pretending to eat out of there bowl seems to do there heads in and think of you as more the leader of the pack. I would put in a custard cream and eat that then put their food down :)

Hi Nicky,

Welcome to Champdogs :)
Im so sorry to hear of the tough time yourself and Penny are having and everything seems to have come to head.You have my sympathy but most importantly you have my empathy, you see 3 years ago I was where you are now with regards to dog-dog 'aggression' ( he came to me at 18months having been locked in a shed and not socialised) so Kettles on! you look like you could do with a cuppa ;)  Im here to tell you that today I have a dog (the same dog-dog aggressive!) who plays and meets other dogs calmly and is a pleasure to own...and Penny can do this too :)
   How?.... well,there is no quick fix,nor an over night miraculous change! As with any training... use it or lose it! So you do still have to keep on top of the training, you reap what you sow.
    I dont like to contradict advice you have already been given,everyone will have different opinions on a forum,so by all means dont take mine or anyones elses word as gosple ;) Read all the posible solutions and decide what is 'best' for you and your dog. I would however strongly echo the advice already given that you would be very wise to get the help of a reputable behaviorist or Trainer,Association of Pet Dog Behaviourists Council or Assoc.Pet Dog trainers I cannot emphasise that strongly enough! (Im an Instructor for a Police Force... training is my Forte!..and even I needed to use a Behaviourist,money well spent! I paid around £25 for 2 hour sessions,so it doesnt nesc. mean big bucks,and got alot more besides,anytime phone support,handouts and as it transpired a new freind!)
       I would not attempt any types of training methods that your not familiar with until you and penny have been assessed and advised by the above!
The ONLY type of training that really works is that which allows the dog to make the right decisions, we set them up in whatever we do or what ever situations we put them in..to succeed! so dont suppress behaviour but re-direct it. This is reward based training reward the good ignore (not punish the bad) teach your dog when bad things are approaching (men,other dogs) good things will happen. Dogs pick this up super quick! Its we humans that struggle with it ;) we live in a punishment based society... If you speed my lot will come along and give you a ticket or a fine ;)
    I would invite you to consider reward based training and a trainer or behaviourist who ONLY uses this ( Ive given you the links) lets look at the alternative;
You've been advised by another poster to sit your dog and keep it looking at you,correcting with a firm no and use of a choke chain (Im biting my tongue,Im biting my tongue) ok..
Let me put you in a situation where you feel nervous,threatened or just not comfortable..so Im taking you to a dark alley, Im going to postion you so you cant see whats coming! and Im not going to let you look!! every sinew of your instinct is telling you to look, as you sense (hear in your case, smell in your dogs) someone/some people approaching... how stressed you gonna be????????????????????????
Im quoting this from a very respected trainer;

>Use a Gentle Leader, not a prong, not a choke. Why? Chokes and prongs will ADD discomfort, and will ADD to the stress. It can backfire on you when you least expect it to. And, it's not necessary to physically suppress beahvior here, only to re-direct it. You're not "correcting errors", but instead, teaching the dog what you DO want and making it impossible for him not to succeed at it.<

Which Ive taken from this site Clicker solutions have a look at the articles on Problem behaviour/aggression, they are very highly regarded in the dog world.
   The training I used was to walk wide circles round other dogs keeping my dog walking keeping him busy, he was allowed to look!!! you'd want to why cant he?? But then attention was brought back to me and rewarded instantly (we used little bits of hotdog sausage,stinky and tasty,much more fun and interesting than giving some dog 'evils' ;) ) we used circles as this is natural dog behaviour / communication, to pas side on is much less stressful than face on or being forced to not even see and to be made to sit)
   Well I am waffling some! you've drunk your tea long ago might have to bring out the wine ;) appologies I feel pasionately about this as I know the misery of fractious walk and now I know the joy of calm and enjoyable walks! it can be done...but do it right.

(feel free to PM me if any of what I say is of interest, if it isnt then feel free to ignore it! whichever I wish you the best of luck, and I know you can do this, your half way there as you have the right attitude seeking help)

Best wishes Liv x (..bit of a waffler!)

Let me put you in a situation where you feel nervous,threatened or just not comfortable..so Im taking you to a dark alley, Im going to postion you so you cant see whats coming! and Im not going to let you look!! every sinew of your instinct is telling you to look, as you sense (hear in your case, smell in your dogs) someone/some people approaching... how stressed you gonna be????????????????????????
Im quoting this from a very respected trainer;

I agree there is millions of different ways of doing things, but when I had a larger poweful breed the sit and look at me worked, hence I have used it with my smaller breeds as well.  The idea is for aggressive dogs because the point being you are not allowing them to choose, you choose.  If they are stressed or unsure the idea is they come to you and sit, after a lot of training.  The one thing I want my dogs to do if they get into a bad situation.

I have never got on with clicker training or reward training, why reward a behaviour thats good and ignore the bad, when you can condition a response by looking for the signs of potential bad behaviour so they are in effect good nearly all the time.  But I dont like the other extreme either with shock or prong collars.  Hence the most severe item I would use is a choke or half choke, and even dont use them for long.

I would say to nickyvangalis that you really need to look through the options about the dog aggression part and find whats right you and you dog.  But the crate is a good place to start for the other behaviour.

Emma

Hi Malibu just a comment on your reply,
With my bull terrier- clicker training and sweets /treats worked a dream for my lad who now I trust around other dogs. I used a muzzle and harness for a few weeks but they did not work at all. You mention the eye balling your dog forcibly making them look at you...It could be seen by an excited Staffordshire bull terrier as being confrontational. I would never of dreamt of being like that with my lad- for on his worst days he would of ended up fighting me through frustration in that situation - even though his weirdness was with dogs not people.  I've found the more calm and together I was with a loose lead not pulling- the more calm he was in meeting lots of dogs when they come up to us. When he was cool by not growling I would tell him he's a good lad and he would get a biscuit. In the end I would see a dog and say, snoop do you want a biscuit? and he would focus on me 100% because he wanted to- not because I forced him. Being over 5 stone of solid muscle I soon realised it was no point me trying to impose my will on him but manipulate the situation instead.

The question I want to put to you is why would crate training Penny make her suddenly trust men be OK out walking with strange dogs etc? I do not like crates for dogs personally and if one must- then only as a bed with the door removed and blankets all around. I see them as an add to training a young pup not to go toilet indoors? but not to rehabilitate an aggressive bitch who is 2 1/2 years old ? Why do lots of people believe these cages to help in training a dog?

> I have never got on with clicker training or reward training, why reward a behaviour thats good and ignore the bad

You have missed te point of it then surely, which is hardly the fault of reward based training.

Why use reward based training - well for a start it is the most effective method of training ... and by that I mean training ANYTHING and ANYONE.

Its not only the most effective method, its the least likely to have dangerous side effects.

This dog is clearly scared, the root of her fear of men and her aggressive behaviour is fear. She like most terrier breeds, takes a defensive attitude and uses aggression to keep those scary things away from her.

Forcing her to do anything when shes fearful is not going to help her. She needs confidence in herself and confidence in her handler.

Asking her to focus on the handler, and useing the handlers body to block her direct view of the scary thing is great - but using force to achieve that isnt. Shes too busy freaking out, she cant learn well in that state, it just sets up a negative battle and no one gains anything.

Before you ask the dog to focus on the handler, you find a distance from the trigger, in this example another dog, at which the dog CAN learn and work and focus, but is still aware of the other dogs presence. Near enough to notice, not close neough to feel the need to react.

THEN you give them a reason to focus on the handler - and that reason is, there is a reward in it. Good things come from focussing on the handler. Not bad things.

Gradually you work nearer and nearer to the scary trigger, associating calm behaviour with nice things.

We ignore freaking out behavoiur, because theres no point in attempting to teach a dog anything in that state of mind - you will just create the association of handler + bad thing = more bad thing.

Instead, learn from that situation and make sure you dont get into it again, perhaps you were too close, perhaps you asked too much of the dog for that stage of the training. Just ignoring something doesnt work, LEARNING from it, and setting the dog up so it doesnt have to react that way, achieves a lot.

As for how not touching a dog, shutting someone in a room or whatever does no harm - i beg to differ.

I could harm you by locking you in a room, very easily, just by ignoring you, controlling your access to food, toilet, water, freedom... very easy to mentally damage any animal by doing this.

Forcing someone to confront their fears generally doesnt work, it just makes those fears worse. Im sure if you were scared of spiders youd react badly, and im also sure if i pointed a loaded gun at your head, i could stop you SHOWING that fearful reaction.

But would it make you less scared.... and would it make you trust me?

No, of course not. Even though Ive not physically touched you, or even said anything.. it would still be quite harmful to you.

Rewards, positive training, works extremely well IF used properly - if you merely assume it is waving sweeties at doggies and ignoring them when they are doing the wrong thing then I suggest you go and read more about it!

Basically, all animals repeat behaviour they find rewarding.

Maxmise the chances of them being rewarded for the behaviour you want, minimise the chances of them being rewarded for the behaviour you dont want... and dont confuse the issue by getting aggressive back to them (shouting, yelling, jerking collars etc).. solves problems remarkably quickly.

If you get into a situation where a dog is yelling its head off and is scared, forcing it to do something, or yelling or jerking on a collar and using domineering body language is not going to help, in fact its just going to make everything worse.

Ignoring wont immediately cure the problem, and no one has ever claimed it will. But it will stop that problem from getting worse, whilst you apply other things to change the dogs behaviour.

> The idea is for aggressive dogs because the point being you are not allowing them to choose, you choose.&nbsp; If they are stressed or unsure the idea is they come to you and sit, after a lot of training.&nbsp; The one thing I want my dogs to do if they get into a bad situation.
>
>

I guess what concerns me with *my* dogs (Im certainly not one of those that will tell you what you should be doing with yours! ;) But merely offering an alternative to consider)

Is that I believe in the instance of owning a dog that may or may not cause harm (for whatever reason) then it is my moral duty and I owe it to that dog and everyone else, to ensure it is well rounded and able to cope correctly in any situation so yes I think its imperative that a dog can choose and learns to choose the correct behaviour and this style of training means that a dog can do this on its own unprompted!! Lets say my house is burgled...a situation out of my control and Im not there to 'Choose' as you say for my dog... My dog is now roaming the streets in a stressful situation with no one to tell him to sit and him having no idea of how to deal.


 
(Em, Great post, incredibly informative, thanks :) )

woah guys, I didn't mean to cause a debate on here...I'm looking for different ideas and I respect all ideas equally.  She trusts me more than she trusts my boyfriend, I think that goes back to the man thing again, btu because my boyfriend is her master and the alpha in the house she respects him and does what she's told.  She's not fearful of him.
It seems to be the behaviour has accelerated since having pups which is completely understandable.  I don't agree in shouting at her, all I need to do is say in a controlled voice, No, Penny, and she backs off.  But she's so fast she's already launched/jumped so it's getting to know her signals before hand, because it can be a matter of seconds with the whole event, and she flips so quickly, it is literally seconds, so I don't have time to think about it.  When I do have time to think about it I prepare myself, but I know that I tense up and she picks up on that, but that's only based on her behaviour.  I've seen Cesar Millan and I know I'm making it worse for myself but I have to trust her before she can trust me...
Does this sound like I'm on the right lines or am I talking outta my ass?

Don't worry Nicky, debates are frequent and not caused by your question. :)

I would agree with using reward based training. Your girl was frightened by a silly man that did a stupid thing. She needs to learn that he's the exception and not the rule. A confident, happy dog that has no fear of a situation has no need to pull aggression out to protect itself. Yes, there are two paths you can take. You could teach her that you're scarier than anything else. That no matter what she's feeling she'd better listen to you or else but her fear will still be there. It's kind of like walking around with a loaded spring - you have to keep your finger on it. The other path is to teach her that strangers, especially men, don't pose any threat. My bitch puppy was wary of men - just her nature. So I walked down the beach asking every man that looked at us to say hello and give her a treat. She's thinks men are lovely now because they equate to something that's 'good for a dog'.

With her having aggression towards people as well as dogs I would second the advice to find a good behaviorist to help you. The danger of just taking advice on an internet forum is none of us can actually see her body language or yours. Having someone with you that can see first hand what is happening is the only way to really be able to give advice specifically to address your girl's problems. There's no shame or failure in asking for help. I may fix a leaky tap but would call out a plumber to put my central heating in. Personally I would avoid anyone that wanted to start selling you loads of aversion devices like choke chains and spray cans - there are more effective methods in my opinion.

> but I have to trust her before she can trust me...

I understand this completely. Take her fear away and you won't have to constantly try to anticipate her moves. You can both relax and enjoy yourselves. :)

Yet with men she is jumpy, aggressive, and I think it's because whenever she's been hurt or taunted it's been by a man

Im not surprised if she was first attacked with a knife and second with a air hose!

Everyone else has given sage advice and I cant say enough how handy crates are and dogs really appreaciate their own space, just like we do!

> so it's getting to know her signals before hand

Nicky,

Have a read through this Calming signals by Turid Rugaas You'll find it interesting :)

This may be worth a read, it's an article on fear agression it is along the same lines as the advice from theemx, working within your dogs comfort zone.

Please, they are Check Chains not choke chains if used properly and sensibly they can be a useful and gentle!! aid to training. There are some training groups that will not allow a handler that uses a 'check ' chain to take part in their class, I know this for a fact. A dog that has a tight lead (of any kind) will always pull as it is trying to get away from it, take the pressure off of the neck and the dog usually learns very quickly to walk with the handler.

> A dog that has a tight lead (of any kind) will always pull as it is trying to get away from it

Only if it hasn't been trained though. My Mastiff has been taught to not pull against a tight lead, he has learnt that a tight lead means he has to stop walking. This was taught by simply standing still on the spot whenever he pulled, only resuming walking once the lead was slack along with a 'no pull' command whilst pulling and a 'good walking' command whilst walking on a slack lead (well, I say 'simply', but it's not easy standing still while a Mastiff pulls!!!!)

How can you take the pressure of the lead when a dog is pulling (if you can't use the change direction method)? A chack-chain had no good effects with my Mastiff and I didn't like the fact he would choke when he pulled whilst wearing one, I was very worried about the damage it could cause to his throat.

I thought that dogs pull to get to where they want to go or because some of them actually enjoy pulling, not because they are trying to get away from the lead (unless it is a pup/dog that hasn't been taught to accept a lead)?

Hi Nicky
Have you sought help from a beahaviourist at all?
I know at times that the way we as owners sometimes react doesnt always help in certain situations? So it may help to get someone in who can advise you as well as the dog?

hi  i don't really want to give advise as you have already had some good advise on here and i am not a trainer but i have a bullmastiff that came to me a year ago with what i would call dog aggression after 5-6 months of avoiding other dog felt it was time to deal with the problem and stop hiding from it.

i saw a behaviorist and he did help a lot he works on the Cesar Millan type of approach assertive leadership and after one meeting for 2hrs with him he told me that my dog was not dog aggressive but just had not manners when approaching other dogs she was to full on and when the other dog objected and growled she then went strait in for the attack. i then spent 5-6 months going to training classes with this guy and was getting on quiet well my confidence was growing and on my daily walks she was very much improved.

BUT i was also working very hard every day with her in a clam assertive way but mixed in treat based rewards. on my walks this went excellent but when i went training on Sundays she would still fixate on other dogs and i could not brake her fixation, my trainer could i became very upset as it was working with rewards every day on walks but in a class situation i was failing.

now i don't go to training i just walk her every day and don't have any problems.
she does still react when in confined spaces like the vets but i can snap her out of this quickly with calm assertive snap of her chain make her sit and when she is calm i then reward her.

i would say you do need help but i think there is a place for calm assertive methods but mixed with reward, stay calm or your nerves will show and your dog will feel that she needs to take control but as soon as she calms then reward, this has made my bond with my dog so much stronger.

p.s i have had three different dog here to stay with me in the last six weeks all of which she has been brilliant with so something has worked.

a check chain must be used correctly you never pull till the dog gives up and stops, you must snap the lead then drop to loss lead if the dog pulls again you repeat then snap and release if you can not use it or know how to use it you should not use one before a professional shows you the correct way.
if used wrong they can do a lot of damage.