Thread continued from HERE

LBC radio 97.3 fm , are talking about this and the program on tonight right now dont seem to me that this will be a very good program and breeders are being blamed for dogs with problems seems they got a one sided view going on this radio show rigth now, id call in myself but im not as well informed as some of you on here anyone want to raise some good points on breeding 0845 6060973

Also a report here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stm

I also got very irate,in fact b====y furious at comments on the 'Wright ' show and also the BBC noon news. But.it'spointless to retaliate. All we can do is our best for our dogs as responsible breeders.  I say this as a breeder of Cavaliers and incidently had a  bitch pass away in April at the age of 15 years and 7 months. Obviously a very 'poorly' Cav !
Mind you, maybe the KC shouldn't let the BBc show Crufts and give it t to ITV or Channel 4.

I have just watched the clips on the link and I feel sorry for CKCS breeders at the moment as they seem to have really focused on the bad points.  I really hate how one charity organisation, not mentioning any names always jumps on the band wagon every time.
As for crufts not being on bbc 1, like it matters, the show will continue to be massive even if they didnt show it on any channel.
I had to laugh at one small comment was that dogs have been bred with shorter legs meaning they cant run and  play as much anymore.  I think they have never seen my dachshunds run, they could easily compete with a whippet sometimes.

Emma

this has been on for 5 mins and annoying me already... they are showing the gsd but not mentioning this is the Germanic type!!!  not british type....

OMG the audacity of the woman who owns the CKCS!!!  She should NOT be allowed to breed or exhibit again! She blatently lied on camera!!! What a money grabber!!

Mind you I suppose its no worse than people letting their dogs go to untested bitches and vice versa!  BE WARNED you WILL be exposed thanks to the net!  If you have an OVERUSED DOG it does nothing for the breed - of course it does your pocket some good but GET OFF YOUR ARSE AND GET A JOB!!!!

Dog Showing is SO BENT!!!!  The whole system needs changing... maybe the KC loosing money might promt a much needed AUDIT!!!!

Louis Theroux makes whimsical shows focussing on the odd little lifestyles of some of the stranger sub cultures of society

He did one about dog shows.
He made the classic comment:
When Adolf Hitler bred humans for perfection it was called eugenics.
When dog breeders do it to dogs, it is called the British sense of fun

Always loved that comment

And at least, a serious programme that bears this truth out.
What a nasty bunch of little extremists

To hell with Crufts and the KC. How can they sleep at night.
Funny little upper middle class people of a certain age who think they are intellectually superior, yet their ignorance and ludricious lack of logic was exposed time after time when they were asked basic questions such as what is the purpose of  the ridge: err, "because its the standard".

Eh??????????????

the ckc breeder should be ashamed allowing her stud to be used knowing it had that genetic condition all because its a champion

As I said on the other topic, it was not clear whether the dog has the condition but no symptoms, or the symptoms themselves, club guidelines say it is ok to mate an unaffected dog to a clear dog.

I know it's your breed Lucydogs but I'm sorry where its D or E it just should not be bred from simple as that. I was so upseat watching those Cav's I balled my eyes out, pet owners should not have to go through that it totally unfair and the poor dogs suffer so much.

some one define inter breeding ?

"yet their ignorance and ludricious lack of logic was exposed time after time when they were asked basic questions such as what is the purpose of  the ridge: err, "because its the standard".

Eh?????????????? "

I think you are being a little unfair there - I watched the programme too and when the lady was asked about the purpose of the ridge, she responded that the people who developed the breed noted that the ridged dogs were the most suited to the conditions and the best hunters. 

It may back fire on her.
What will happen when people realise her dog was their pets sire and they find out their dog has inherited the same problem.
Dog

I think a lot of people on this thread (there is another on this programe as well) are very unaware that there are different degrees of the problem.  CKCS are not my breed but I know about them enough to say you need two affected dogs to create affected puppies.  The dog in the ring is showing no obvious signs so even though he has it he can be breed to a bitch who doesnt.  The puppies will then be carriers.  If those dogs are breed to another clear dog thats it the it is gone.  But with a pedigree dog you cant just breed clear dogs you would lose all the good traits trying to breed for one thing.  What about if this dog has never had a heart condition or any of his line, dont you think that is important as well???

I know everyone has their own opinion but please look into it before making such a damning comment about a breeder.  I actually feel sorry for any CKCS breeder out there at the moment as if no one wants to take on a CKCS then how are they going to be able to breed this out?  It takes a few generations.

Emma

Breeders often breed a clear to a carrier or an affected dog.  It happens all the time!  But what is irresponsible, is breeding a carrier to an affected or an affected to another affected dog.  But clears (in some breeds) are getting harder and harder to find.  Should breeders be forced to let a breed die off, because they cant breed a clear to a carrier?  Or should they be forced to import because their may be a clear???  Even when breed standards differ from country to country? 

If there is a chance of breeding something so painful and fatal into a dog, then yes they certainly should not take the risk. One breeder even said she wouldn't MRI. How bad is that. She dosent even know if she is passing it on, and the person with the bitch is as bad using the dog.

i was appalled that he had sired over 20 odd litters afer being diagnosed with the disease, he should have been castrated straight away, what a terrible breeder! i hope she feels ashamed now

Sorry Bertbeagle you are wrong, the problem came from narrowing the gene pool and if we only breed from A dogs the gene pool will be further narrowed. The club guidelines say that D type dogs may be bred with A type dogs. I also think they deliberately put collars on those dogs to make them scratch for the programme, I have a friend whose Cav has symptoms and she scratches on a collar but is fine if wearing a harness.

Got it wrong btw, E is no symptoms but under 2.5 years, F is the one with symptoms. Neither should be bred from but an E dog can be upgraded to a D if rescanned after 2.5 years and still clear of symptoms.

Can you provide scientific proof that "D type dogs may be bred with A type dogs". and then 100% this is totally gone, I would like to research this.

"I also think they deliberately put collars on those dogs to make them scratch for the programme" - Yes I'm sure they did but it does not denine the fact these poor dogs and their poor owners have to go through hell due to irresponsiable breeding!

it would then, have been far better, if the lady herself, or one of her friends, had taken the time to explain all of this. Or a vet or one of the scientists. To lie was a huge mistake, and shows she had something she wished to hide. The breeder who stated that she didnt believe the vets diagnosis in many cases because dogs scratch anyway, and then to say she would never MRI any of her dogs didnt help the situation at all.

I know I am probably repeating but when I saw 5 pages Now Cont...............

But just to join in with probably many other views, I also found what I saw of this programme distrubing, actually I was fuming by the end of it.

I know the programme was very one sided and only showed the bad and the ugly side of things, we know there are thousands of brilliant breeds and of course not interbred at all.

However, the KC came across absolutely terrible, (and I missed quite a bit of the programme) I don't understand the arguement given by one gentleman from the KC that breeders would go elsewhere if the KC insisted on health checks, where would they go?  You can't enter Crufts without a KC dog?  Or register a litter without it being KC, how would it impact on the millions they make every year, people would just have to do it, a dog should be top quality healthwise too to enter Crufts, there are plenty of others standing by to take their places.

For goodness sake all of us on here health test our dogs via our breeds clubs voices, what is the point of our breed clubs setting out standards for the KC an even higher authority to say we don't really care and even when we know we'll still register your litters.

Mind you they probably chose the only show competitor (Cav) who had a dodgy dog, and she spun a very deceptive tale. (must admit though the dog was beautiful) they did not have a long line of other competitors to show with unhealthy dogs did they, however,

If I were Joe public I would be running from the Show competitors and looking at the BYB's and even Working lines now who have been shunned by many Show competitors for years due to many Working line breeders not feeling the need to go through the same health tests, well boy that is a real kick in the teeth the one thing I can say about the Working lines verses Show, Springers, Cockers and Labs, we know they are fit and healthy and of the right temperaments they need to be to do their jobs, their lines are bound to be cleaner and healthier than many in the show world.

The programme left me fuming, it was totally one sided and left me feeling (who knows better) that the KC only care about the money, breed clubs and members from sites like Champdogs whose members fight for health and good breeding stock and are very much in the world of Crufts should make a renewed official body to compete against the KC that only breeds from good stock as most on here do, at least the public would know they are buying quality dogs, not the examples they showed on the programme.

Do you know how many years this programme will affect peoples views of us, they will think us dishonest and bad breeders,

The damage that programme has done to good Crufts breeders is no different to Gerald Ratner saying his wares were CRAP! Basically that is what this programme has done.

Spitting blood.

Can you provide scientific proof that "D type dogs may be bred with A type dogs". and then 100% this is totally gone, I would like to research this

I would have thought the only foolproof scientific proof would be if genetic testing were involved, although my understanding is that this is from an MRI scan.  I suppose the problem is that it is so extensive that to only breed from clear dogs would limit th gene pool so much it would cause an even bigger problem.  Rather like hip scoring that has been shown there is some benefit in breeding from low scoring dogs, but even that is rather hit and miss.

If you want to watch all of it, http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_one/2008-08-19

I didn't say it was scientific, I said it was the Club guidelines. It's a sound theory though - breed unaffected dogs with clear dogs and you should only get unaffected and clear in the litters, and eventually we can then select for clear and not even unaffected.

You know Carrington, you're absolutely right. I don't post on here, but i lurk, but this topic and programme has got me so riled ( I couldn't sleep last night throught thinking about all of this) that i've had to put my point across.

  Yes it does put some breeders and show people in a bad light. As beautiful as some of the show dogs are, the deformities aren't. I can not believe that people are breeding to a standard- how someone felt themselves godly enough to write- and that breeders are aiming for, no matter how detrimental for the health of the breed.

  The culling of the ridgebacks with no ridge left me fuming- the breeders answer as to why they cull the puppies- was so that they dont end up in the hands of dog fighters.
  I'm sorry, but no matter ridge or no ridge homes should be vetted thoroughly, and I can't see how a dog with no ridge would affect this????

  May I also comment on a recent thread on breeders of large litters who may cull a pup rather than reduce the price or rehome it? That's not for the dogs welfare- no matter what the breeders say- that's playing god at it's best.
  To me it just amplifies the undercurrent of the uglier side of breeding that some established/ even show breeders are quik to gloss over and justify.

  That programme for me has put me off all unatural breeds, and those riddled with health problems. I don't have a dog now, but I use champdogs as an educational tool for when I will be getting an addittion next year- but this certainly has made me reconsider a cross bred from health tested parents. And for all the purists out there, yes there are some breeders doing this- and I now support them all the way.

Im really worried now that the general public will see pedigree dogs as a bad buy with loads of health faults and start going to puppy farmers and buy cross breeds (IE labradoodles which I still think are the worst crossbreeds to rise in popularity) at ridiculas prices for a better dog even tho they are still just crossbreeds and should be very little money compared to a pedigree.
Fingers crossed this doesnt happen.

Why should a cross breed cost less than a pedigree pup? If you like the look, the temprement, parents are health tested, then why is a cross breed any less than a pedigree???
  Having always thought of pedigree dogs, I for one will now consider a cross. Why? To avoid an exagerated 'type' and ensure there is some genetic variation.

Rach, depends on the viewing figures (does anyone know?) I would expect it had a large viewing though.

You know that saying being tared with the same brush, it will ricochet and joe public will have us all with the same rotten apples, it is how the human race works.

All the voicing of opinions from us that many breeds are becoming unhealthy due to over breeding of pet to pet breeders and not using the best stock, (which is true) has just been smashed with a sledgehammer as it is being shown to be coming from the top show breeders, how unsavoury and upsetting.

All I can say to anyone looking for a pedigree dog is there are thousands and thousands of us who do the right things breed very carefully from well chosen lines and who are all very upset that we were not shown to be the majority and this small minority made the programme.

(Calmstorm I shall watch the whole programme, if I can stand it thanks for the link, I had my niece over with her new babe last night so only caught bits of the programme, it was very hard to look all gooey and happy with the babe whilst wanting to throw something at the TV :-D )

> The culling of the ridgebacks with no ridge left me fuming- the breeders answer as to why they cull the puppies- was so that they dont end up in the hands of dog fighters.
>

I don't think we should forget that the producers had a message they were aiming for and the editing would be within that remit so it would not be in their interest to give people extra time to explain things more fully and maybe compromise the image the editors are wishing to give.  I think puppies from large and powerful breeds like this are a temptation to the wrong sort of people and these breeders will have the experience to know if good homes are in short supply or not for non standard puppies.  I don't think you can apply "playing god" to the welfare of animals, after all none of us hesitate to have an elderly or suffering dog PTS.

> Having always thought of pedigree dogs, I for one will now consider a cross. Why? To avoid an exagerated 'type' and ensure there is some genetic variation.

Ahh so the BBC have done their job already then :(

Crossbreeds shold be less because they are usually a accidental mating and you have no gurantee the parents have been tested in most cases, how can you prove a dog has been tested for anything if the litter isnt registered and neither are the parents?
A person can tell you they have been done, doesnt mean they have does it without proof?
Pedigrees you know what you are getting and can prepare for the breeds needs, with a cross its just that a mongrel, since when did mongrels cost anything they are usually free as a result of an accidental mating, and only PROFESSIONAL breeders who ARE registered should be crossing dogs anyway, any tom dick or harry can chuck a lab and poodle together and most do producing offspring with who knows what temperament or physique??
Liking the look is EXACTLY why people are getting away with charging hundreds for MONGRELS not anything special, and if you want to pay £600 for a mongrel then bigger fool you!!!

the term 'playing god' does not apply to putting an elderly or suffering dog put to sleep. I'm talking about those who put a healthy pup to sleep, simply because of an appearance issue or the breeder hasn't found a home for the pup and can't keep the pup on.

  If one was to breed a large powerful breed, then you are right there is the temptation for the wrong sort of person to get their hands on the pup-ridge or no ridge.

  It is the breeders responsibility to find suitable homes for both conforming and non-conforming pups. If a suitable home is not found then the breeder should keep the pup on untill one comes along. Not all pet owners will want a very young pup- and believe it or not, but some will adopt a non-perfect dog, at a reduced price.

  Not financially viable? Don't breed. It's a hobby isn't is? Hobbies cost money.

> It is the breeders responsibility to find suitable homes for both conforming and non-conforming pups. If a suitable home is not found then the breeder should keep the pup on untill one comes along. Not all pet owners will want a very young pup- and believe it or not, but some will adopt a non-perfect dog, at a reduced price.
>

You just contradicted yourself there hun :)
You said puppies should be kept on by the breeder and not culled as theres nothing wrong with them if they dont have a ridge and now your saying above that is there is something wrong and it should be sold at a reduced price?

Is that right?

Selling dogs cheap has risks attatched, people are looking and waiting in the wings for a quick snap up and not always savoury characters either.

> the term 'playing god' does not apply to putting an elderly or suffering dog put to sleep.

To me the saying refers to humans taking charge of the outcome.

> If a suitable home is not found then the breeder should keep the pup on untill one comes along.

I could imagine for hobby breeders of breeds with large litters that could very soon lead to the situation where they were no longer able to breed which then passes the breed over to the care of those that are not so scrupulous in where they place their puppies. 

Not all cross- breeds are accidental matings- there is a litter I have found advertising a well known cross both from eye tested and hip scored parents.

  IF i were to go and view these pups I would ask to see proof of testing. JUST as I now would with a litter of pedigree pups. This programme has opened my eyes, as to joe public a KC reg breeder who shows successfully is assurance that the breeder is held in high esteem- therefore trustworthy. Not any more, I'm afraid.
  These are my views.

  And yes, I would rather spend £600 on a unique mongrel than £1000 on one of the 50 pugs in the UK. I want a dog who can walk and run freely, breathe properly and see without folds of skin obstructing it's view. And if that costs me £600 or more, then so be it. Price of a lifelong friend is priceless.

>> the term 'playing god' does not apply to putting an elderly or suffering dog put to sleep.
> To me the saying refers to humans taking charge of the outcome.
>

Translate it how you wish, I am simply trying to put my view across, not enter an argument picking apart my wording on this emotive subject.

If hobby breeders with large litters reach maximum capacity then so be it, there is obviously no demand for the pups. A home which has carefully researched, thought about and seriously want a pup from you then they can wait- years if must. That's what you want isn't it, non-impulse homes for your pups?

  What is your alternative then Isabel?

 

there is a litter I have found advertising a well known cross both from eye tested and hip scored parents.


Just a note of caution Poppet, this is where many get misled, you can have a eye tested and hip scored dog and bitch of different breeds but putting the two together changes the formation and shape, therefore it makes no difference and is like a new breed, the legs may be too long or short, putting strain on the legs, the head not matched to the rest of the body, the bone structure of two different breeds together will not make a sound hip score or good eye results it infact will undo the good work.

Many people are fooled by this, two different breeds together is always an unknown outcome, you might get lucky, you might not. :-)

> Many people are fooled by this, two different breeds together is always an unknown outcome, you might get lucky, you might not. :-)

Exactly my point about paying so much money for a cross breed when you dont even know what your gonna get, its bad for the wallet and the dog.

If you dont want a pug then dont buy one, it aint hard is it?
If you want a pedigree dog like you should anyway, search the parents pedigree and chekc dogs on the pedigree again it aint hard just takes time and the dog you get afterwards you know what your getting and you know the breed too.

> What is your alternative then Isabel?
>

I've given it.  Hand the breed over to those who are less scrupulous.  I am not nitpicking over the "play god" comment.  I am trying to say that owning and breeding dogs, any animals, always involves making decisions concerning their welfare at all points during their lives from birth to old age, that in humans you would leave to the will of God.

I am saying that a pup with no ridge has nothing wrong with it. It is healthy, it will lead a normal happy life with the right people, correct?

  However, by these 'standards' those pups are not 'perfect' and as such a buyer may have an issue with paying the full price of the pup- not all buyers mind, but some. In that case is it not better if it were an otherwise perfect home to let the pup go for the reduced rate rather than culling????

  The issue of culling a healthy pup/dog is difficult for me to stomach. Yes there are always people looking and waiting for a quick snap, but there will be unsavoury characters out there willing to pay the full price too. It is the breeders responsibility to ensure, to their best possible efforts that the best homes are found.

One thing I would be interested in is how easy it is to find homes for Ridgebacks. If people are queuing up and the pet people don't care if it has a ridge or not, then yes the puppy should live but be neutered. If it's almost impossible to find good homes for the ridged puppies let alone the non-ridged one, then you have a harder decision to make!

(Calmstorm I shall watch the whole programme, if I can stand it thanks for the link, I had my niece over with her new babe last night so only caught bits of the programme, it was very hard to look all gooey and happy with the babe whilst wanting to throw something at the TV

Thank goodness it wasnt the baby! :)

I have just spoken to a friend who works for Cavalier Rescue. She has, so far, had three Cavaliers brought in as a result of last night's programme. they are all fit and healthy, but the owners are frightened of the thought that their pets might go down with syringomyelia, and are getting rid of them before they are faced with heavy vet bills or euthanasia.

What was it they said on the programme - this was all about the welfare of the dog?????

I cant see pugs & many over typy dogs lasting much longer in their current form to be honest. Lets face it many people showing dogs do not have their best interests at heart.How can people who often own 10 or more dogs really treat their dogs properly & there's no way on earth these animals can get the time & attention they require.

On the breeds issue, many will have to evolve the same way all animals do if they are to survive in my opinion.

The issue of culling a healthy pup/dog is difficult for me to stomach

You are not alone, to many it is barbaric. What was so apauling was the attitude of that dreadful woman breeder, she had absolutly no compassion, she could have been talking about an old pair of boots that she was throwing out. Then to critise the young vet for failing to do her wishes, as if it was an inconvience to her. It shows just how little they value their puppies and I have no idea why they are breeding except for money and a possible show dog.
If you know how to vet you will find a suitable home, it just takes a little more time and a little more money spent on the puppy, it may still be there after the breeder has waved the puppies off. Damned inconvience :(

I think I will bow out of this now, I'm not a breeder, no expert.

  I've been deeply affected by what I saw last night, as a non-breeder, non-shower, future puppy buyer.

  I have just felt let down, as I felt responsible breeders would not breed to the detriment of the breed. I felt that those who were successful at shows would be almost like an added assurance that I was getting a healthy pup. I felt that reputable breeders would always go by the welfare of the pup and that appearance really wouldn't play a part in it.

   I was wrong, and for that I'm very sorry.

  I have been very interested in the response this programme has recieved and have also visited a well known dog rescue board, and the difference in opinion has been astounding.
  I guess the answer is buyer beware, whether I go for a pedigree or cross bred in the future I will insist on health checks for both parents and ask to see proof. Hearing about the different medical conditions certain breeds are prone to and seeing them with my own eyes makes a huge difference. I feel that rather than simply looking at the appearance and temprament of a future dog, the health problems of a breed will also sway my decision. I will never buy from a breeder who culls a healthy pup, although I fear few will be honest regarding this.

  So yes, it made for very sad viewing last night, however I feel it's opened my eyes and hopefully a few others too.

> but there will be unsavoury characters out there willing to pay the full price too.

But the difference for the correctly marked puppy is that there will be homes available other than the unsavoury characters.  This may not be the case for the others.  All the vetting in the world cannot create a demand that is not there.  This is not my breed so I do not know but I respect that within the breed there will be an understanding of the requirements of both supply and demand.

wow thats amazing, the program was on at 9pm last night, and three different Cavs from the same local area have landed on rescue before 9.30am....thats a fast acting rescue! Are they going to MRI test these dogs before they re home them? Just in case, as it cannot be known if their parents were tested. :(

Actually it was 10.30 - this board works on GMT ;), and actually two made contact last night when they had only seen the trailers for the programme.

I'm sure they would like to MRI every CKCS that comes into rescue - but will the new owners stump up the £200 that it costs? Perhaps one benefit of this programme is that prospective new owners will be aware of the necessity for such testing.

I think I will bow out of this now, I'm not a breeder, no expert.


Which makes your opinions even more valid, as you are our future client, it is important to hear what the general public thinks, there is no point in only dog breeders and show people giving opinions, people like you are our future.

and have also visited a well known dog rescue board, and the difference in opinion has been astounding.


Again this is of interest, it matters not that many will disagree with your opinions, what matters is that we hear them from yourself and others, to gage what is happening outside our own goldfish bowls, yes we shall defend our corners hopefully both sides will learn, but I would love more posters not just from the immediate dog world to state what they feel and think.

It is important for all of us to know the backlash from this programme. :-)

If it's almost impossible to find good homes for the ridged puppies let alone the non-ridged one, then you have a harder decision to make!

Quite correct. Don't breed until you have a full list of puppy people, and make sure there are a space or two for the un ridged ones. or, make sure before you breed you have the time and space to correctly socialise them untill a home is found regardless of the time, cost and effort involved. After all, if it was a return you would have to.

What this program has pointed out is what is known on here, breeders do cull puppies. And there are breeders like that dreaful woman who don't give a second thought to doing it. Animal lover....nah.