I only went there to get some background info on her, as I know she was an adviser to the program makers. I read her version of how she came to be a vet. Didn't read the rest of her drivel!

so did anyone else hear ronnies speach at the WKC dinner....about this programme? :( :(

No is there a copy of this anywhere? Most interested to hear what he had to say.

~I have seen the programme, but am embargoed to not say anything until 00:01 tonight. What I will say is.......

Ya ain't gonna like it!

And our annual moan about a certain show ain't gonna happen either next year unless something radical happens in the next 24 hours!

Ya ain't gonna like it!


Best stock up with cushions then, better to throw them at the telly than anything hard......... :(

> Ya ain't gonna like it!
>

I was really not expecting to.

Perhaps the KC should use some of the money they pour into other things to make their own film
Another idea could be that they have a 2 page in all the 'glossy' mags each month explaining about genetics, health tests, breeding, showing, all the aspects that they have on their website in the very magazines pet owners read. Also advice from breed clubs, interviews with dedicated dog breeders, and those that do all the things other than showing. Maybe a series on TV like the RSPCA had, or the dog trainers, with dog people in the real world. let people know that KC does not just mean 'Crufts' and people with posh voices and high hairstyles, get out and about to all the things the Kc promotes, interviews and such like with long in the tooth and new dog owners. I just don't think the majority of people know enough about the Kc and all it does, they just see show dogs and maybe agility, and nothing else. Cameras around the Kc offices wouldn't go amiss, and the hub of the dog world there, the past dogs and pictures from when it started and why it started. I'm sure a PR person could get something going.

You are absolutely right there. Maybe they should produce their own pet mag for the newsagents?

Hey perhaps we could be the reporters for it... that might be cool eh?

Seems the KC were right to be worried, here's a taster of what to expect from pedigree dogs exposed. I really miss the rolling eyes smiley!

One paragraph in the article says "It says physical traits required by the Kennel Club's breed standards, such as short faces, wrinkling, screw-tails and dwarfism, have inherent health problems." What breeds require dwarfism in their breed standards?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1046614/BBC-drop-Crufts-unhealthy-freak-breeds.htmlNice bit of sensationlism from the Daily Mail.

Read this on BBC Front page this morning the programme is tonight so i will be watching. It does not look v.good so far but I'll keep an open mind. I would think that pug owners will feel got at with the right up!!!
Lets hope its not to daming.

The programme shows a prize-winning cavalier King Charles spaniel suffering from syringomyelia, a condition which occurs when a dog's skull is too small for its brain.



Er no it is caused by a malformation of the skull where the spinal cord enters & the brain herniates out stopping the cerebral fluid from draining from the brain-nothing to do with the dogs skull being too small for it's brain

& these people are supposed to be scientists ?????????

Did Claire Rushbridge really say SM was caused solely by Cavaliers having brains too big for their skulls ????????????????? She needs a boot up the arse for that comment

Well no surprises there then :(

Why would a TV programme show any of the majority of healthy dogs bred by responsible breeders when they can show emotive scenes like that and imply that all dogs have these problems.

There was mention of the BBC pulling it's cameras and programme-makers from Crufts next year.   I've a feeling it could be the other way around The Kennel Club won't allow the BBC there as they have been biased and brought the Kennel Club and the majority of dog breeders into disrepute.

>Did Claire Rushbridge really say SM was caused solely by Cavaliers having brains too big for their skulls ????????????????? She needs a boot up the arse for that comment

She may not have, she wouldn't be the first to be misquoted for the purposes of a TV programme.  If she did then I'm with you - a big boot in the nether region needed asap!

Was the cavalier shown on the clip from a show breeder or a 'different type of breeder?' is it possible to tell?

Hi guys

Does anyone know where I can see this programme in scotland? just checked tonights listings on sky and at 9pm its River City on?  I would really love to see it?

Just watched a clip of Bill Lambert and the RSPCA vet on a morning programme :(

There's a huge problem with what vets see (especially RSPCA vets) - They won't be seeing the healthy dogs as often as the ill-bred and sick ones - WHY?

Because many owners only take their healthy dogs to the vets for Vaccinations and some not even then, since there is concern about over-vaccination.   Don't vets realise this??    it isn't rocket science :(   I'm positive the RSPCA vets never see a healthy dog, they wouldn't be seeing the dog if it was healthy and well-cared for.

The vets only see my dogs if they're ill after initial vaccinations.  Even the Health testing I've paid for doesn't require that they be seen by my local vet.  DNA testing is sent straight to AHT with the swabs they sent me.  Eye testing is done by specialist vet - certainly NOT an RSPCA vet!

In fairness I can't blame the vets for having a warped view of Pedigree dogs - after all the number of Puppy Farmed and BYB dogs in homes across Britain likely means that vets rarely see a well-bred healthy specimen of any breed :(

This is borne out by my vet's comments when they saw the pup I kept from my litters.  Astounded at the health and condition and also the confidence.  In their words, they "rarely see pups of this type, 99% are from BYB and PFs - undernourished, wormy, sick and scared" :(  They can't be the only vets who notice this?

The KC hit BACK
http://www.doggenetichealth.org/  never seen this site before - about flippin time!

Hi Thompson
                   In Scotland it's on Friday at 9pm or if you have catchup you can watch it after Tuesday

whilst I believe that this programme will inevitably sensationalise problems inherent in the breeding of pedigree dogs ...there's a small voice inside that actually agrees with some of the points it will raise .   - what is it about the human psyche that believes that more of a characteristic is automatically better ?...more wrinkles - bigger heads -more coat etc

Frankly it saddens me to see a dog unable to function with any real degree of freedom due to the over exaggeration of breed type....why is it requirement that some breeds 'roll' on the move ? - that some breeds have undershot jaws ? ....that coats should be so long ( to the extent that they need to be rolled up when not being shown !)

already Pedigree are withdrawing their support of the show  world - we will I fear, see others withdrawing their links with the show scene unless we clean up our act - we either admit  now that we have a problem and act to improve things - or wait for legislation to kick in that will FORCE us to change some of our breeding parctices.

Yvonne

LBC 97.3 FM ARE HAVING A PHONE IN ON THIS RIGHT NOW ALL COMMENTS SO FAR HAVE NOT BEEN GOOD ITS VERY ONE SIDED , SAD NO ONE SEEMS TO BE PUTTING THE GOOD SIDE ACROSS ITS LIKE THEY TRYING TO MAKE BREEDERS LOOK BAD,

I wonder how many mother/son or father/daughter matings actually take place? Just watched the clip with Mark Evans and Bill Lambert, and I have to say it's one area that I am quite surprised the KC don't actually consider not allowing registrations, to be seen to be 'doing something'. Maybe it is sometimes necessary in breeds with small gene pools, but I can't image it is common. Could this not be covered off by the same appeal process as for a bitch whelping over 8 years of age?

M.

Just watched a clip on BBC TV news. Caroline Kisko did a good job of damage limitation, but I doubt she will be listened to. Not helped by the KC Chairman saying 'no scientist is going to tell me how to breed my dogs'!

Kind of answers the question as to why "Pedigree" have pulled all their show sponsoship doesn't it!!!!

I agree with some of your points (Yvonne) but these issues should have been addressed years ago!

Hopefully most breeders involved in the show world now DO carry out all the relevant health tests and DO breed responsibly.  Jumping on us now is far too little too late!

I feel the KC should only register pups who's parents have been tested for all health issues at least on schedule A - but that would cut their reg fees at least in half wouldn't it!

See that it is calling pedigrees on teletext this morning!!!

Viewers in Scotland who have Sky tv can watch it tonight on the english regional channels that Sky provides.

Oh dear, now a topic on the BBC Have Your Say too. So much ignorance.

Interesting how many comments there are on the fact that docking is a dreadful practice and should be banned. Not many comments pointing out that in the majority of cases (and certainly for the Dobermanns/Rottweilers quoted), it IS now banned. More evidence of the fact that the general public at large still don't seem to be aware of the changes to the law.

Not going to be a good week for pedigree dogs.

M.

There was mention of the BBC pulling it's cameras and programme-makers from Crufts next year.   I've a feeling it could be the other way around The Kennel Club won't allow the BBC there as they have been biased and brought the Kennel Club and the majority of dog breeders into disrepute.

Yes I believe that is it from what I've heard. The BBC has a lot to lose (millions of viewers primetime time for 4 days), the KC do not. Would not be hard to find another channel to show it if they still wanted it aired, I'm sure.

There was mention of the BBC pulling it's cameras and programme-makers from Crufts next year.

In the papers here> [i

It's totally down to lack of pigment in the inner ear.

So that is what makes white dogs deaf, I see now :)

> As regards Emma Milne

Who is she and the other one you guys have mentioned?
You dont seem to hold them in very high regard??!!

So are they gonna cancel crufts then?
that means the actual show will still go on tho doesnt it, so dont really see the point of losing all that money for being so pc, if Crufts is still gonna happen anyway why bother? Or do they mean shut down crufts all together to get the breeds sorted which need it? :(

In fairness I can't blame the vets for having a warped view of Pedigree dogs - after all the number of Puppy Farmed and BYB dogs in homes across Britain likely means that vets rarely see a well-bred healthy specimen of any breed  

So Sad but true, specially round my area with badly bred alsations, been an explosion here for some reason of alsations with real bent back legs etc? :(

The programme shows a prize-winning cavalier King Charles spaniel suffering from syringomyelia, a condition which occurs when a dog's skull is too small for its brain.

I just read in that the the paper too !!
Said its cause by bad breeding and the skull becomes too painful to touch and the dog can never be stroked on the head and any small bump on the head can kill it in a very painbful way :( is that true??! !!!???

    > As regards Emma Milne

Who is she and the other one you guys have mentioned?
You dont seem to hold them in very high regard??!!

Vet School -> Vets in practice, the TV programmes. Infamous for hating all pedigree animals.

So are they gonna cancel crufts then?
that means the actual show will still go on tho doesnt it, so dont really see the point of losing all that money for being so pc, if Crufts is still gonna happen anyway why bother? Or do they mean shut down crufts all together to get the breeds sorted which need it? :-(

LOL Crufts is just ONE show a year of hundreds. Nobody but the KC can cancel it, there is no legal reason to, and they certainly won't do that. (Well one year it had to be moved to May because of foot & mouth, and it wasn't on during the war.) The only difference between Crufts and other champ.shows is that you have to qualify for it, and it gets the media coverage. But it's just another champ.show. They can't stop shows altogether. And if the BBC does decide to not air it, or the KC decides to refuse the BBC (as the ought to really) I'm sure there are plenty of other channels that would like to take over. Millions of viewers is millions of viewers after all. Matters a lot more to the TV companies than to the rest of us I'd say.

oh mini how do you do that lol (sorry to go off topic)

Thank you for clearing that up for me Marianne B :)

Ahh I didnt know that vets practise doesnt like pedigree dogs, can I ask why?

I reckon it will be really sad if they do cancel it but like you say probably bnetter if they do and let someone else cover it who actully loves dogs and knows a bit about pedigree!

I always thought Crufts was the biggest show on earth for dogs and to win BIS was like the biggest thing a dg could achieve?

If you press your TV guide button on your sky remote and you get the listing for all the different types of channels (news, entertainment etc) it comes under one of those sub headings.  You get BBC Anglia, Northwest etc etc.  I can't remember how to do it without sitting in front of my tv! I'm useless.  Hope you manage to figure it out!

> Just watched a clip on BBC TV news. Caroline Kisko did a good job of damage limitation, but I doubt she will be listened to.

She was very good on PM this morning with Jemima.  After setting off being far too polite for my taste :-), she warmed up over the issue that change needs to be evidence based not just because we don't like the sound of something and finally got stuck in putting Jemima in her place, reminding her that she is not the pioneer in seeking to recover dog breeding from any mistakes made in the Victorian Era, that the KC have been taking the intiative on this for a couple of decades.

>> Not helped by the KC Chairman saying 'no scientist is going to tell me how to breed my dogs'!

That's unfortunate if he put it like that but in the sense that many breeders do have decades of sound evidence in their records there could be some basis to this.
Pesonally, I don't think the KC should spend money on producing magazines, money that can be better spend on their research products, as the modern world turns more to the internet for their information.  The web site gets more and more informative and the Facebook initiative seems to show they have their finger on the pulse.
Edited to add I have just seen Dills link, another good intiative.
Sorry not PM Radio 4 morning programme

He did say this but carried on to say he actually "Knew" the dogs in his pedigrees

> there's a small voice inside that actually agrees with some of the points it will raise . 

Don't worry, Caroline Kisko feels the same :-)  I don't think we do pedigree dogs any favours but not admitting to the fact that some breeds have some problems and this certainly needs to be addressed, which it is! 
I think what I find the most irritating about Jemima is her rambling connection of one thing into something else.  For instance she criticises dogs with dwarfism before finally getting down to the problems of the over furnishing of the Bassett.  Achondroplasia in itself has never been a hindrance to a dogs health, with ancient working breeds utilising the feature to full advantage long before any cosmetic preference was applied to it.
Anyone wanting to listen to the interview can access it here at 0723

But isn't it a fact that selective breeding is causing health problems in certain breeds or am I just imagining this.

Also:  In fairness I can't blame the vets for having a warped view of Pedigree dogs - after all the number of Puppy Farmed and BYB dogs in homes across Britain likely means that vets rarely see a well-bred healthy specimen of any breed

Isn't this preoccupation with having pedigree dogs encouraging the above i.e. puppy farming and the unfair treatment of animals?

> I wonder how many mother/son or father/daughter matings actually take place?

Not many according to Caroline Kisko and she pointed out the need for evidence being banning something rather that just doing it because it does not sound right.   Again in Jemima's muddled logic it is inbreeding that is giving us exaggeration when in fact it is simply selective breeding for that particular  feature.  Caroline also pointed out this morning that dogs suffer from less genetic anomolies than humans and that's with picking our mates out from a random selection propping up the bar :-)

> Kind of answers the question as to why "Pedigree" have pulled all their show sponsoship doesn't it!!!!

I rather assumed it was for the same reasons that all large companies are tightening their belts.  Advertising and promotional work has suffered greatly in all sectors of business.

ditto

> Ahh I didnt know that vets practise doesnt like pedigree dogs, can I ask why?
>

I was just Emma Milne.  One of the other vets featured, Trude Mostu (sp) bought a non pedigree puppy for her mother and it died of Parvo before she got it home to her.  After that she bought a pedigree Border Terrier pup and said she would never again buy from anyone but a reputable, health testing, vaccinating breeder.  So not every vet on the programme holds the same views as Emma and can see that there are much broader benefits than the down sides of a few oddly developed breeds.

>Isn't this preoccupation with having pedigree dogs encouraging the above i.e. puppy farming and the unfair treatment of animals?

Hardly, if Joe Public were willing to wait for well-bred, tested pups puppy farmers wouldn't get a look in or would have to clean up their act ;)  It's the want it now, must have it now, want something different tomorrow people who are the main customers of Puppy farmers.  

People who want pedigree dogs and know what that means are more willing to wait for well-bred pups from tested parents ;)

> But isn't it a fact that selective breeding is causing health problems in certain breeds or am I just imagining this.
>

Yes, personally, I would agree with that and Caroline admitted this too but she also said the KC have been working towards removing these unhealthy extremes for the last 20 years.  She also pointed out that something like 90% (can't remember exactly what figure she quoted) of breeds are perfectly healthy.

> rather assumed it was for the same reasons that all large companies are tightening their belts.  Advertising and promotional work has suffered greatly in all sectors of business.

I spoke to someone at Pedigree who stated that show people account for 5% of their turnover!  The pet market is much bigger and more profitable.

With the adoption drive they launched last year and now pulling all the sponsorship I think it's much bigger than tightening their belts.  they pulled out of E of E AFTER setting up so the cost was already in their budget.

She also pointed out that something like 90% (can't remember exactly what figure she quoted) of breeds are perfectly healthy.

I think she said 90 % of pedigree dogs are healthy.

> I spoke to someone at Pedigree who stated that show people account for 5% of their turnover!  The pet market is much bigger and more profitable.
>

Then it seems entirely logical to save money on that 5%.

> I think she said 90 % of pedigree dogs are healthy.

Ah, yes it could have been :-) but that still puts a sense of proportion to it.

I agree with everyone else from what I have seen so far and read it looks like a slam on pedigree breeders but....do you think it could hi-light the illnesses (sp) that these particular breeds suffer from and in turn make people so scared to get a pup with these problems that they specifically look for breeders that do the relevent health tests?

I hope thats what it does, although I can see it could go the opposite way and byb could start breeding "crossbreeds" and they could market them as "healthier" :-(

>I hope thats what it does, although I can see it could go the opposite way and byb could start breeding "crossbreeds" and they could market them as "healthier"

I'm sure those breeding the various doodles and poos are rubbing their hands together with glee and waiting for the enquiries to come in. Unfortunately, I have every suspicion they won't be disappointed.

M.

Richard & Judy are going to be covering this on their show this evening at 5pm if anyone can bear to watch.

> if anyone can bear to watch.

That's a tall order :-)

Put richard and judy on now its going to be on there too