By all means inject as much humour as you like it is always welcome :-) but I don't think discussing the need for meat when rejecting fur is off topic at all.  The link is there and has been raised.
I'm sorry if quoting isn't to your taste but, with the way the board is laid out these days, it is difficult to have a discussion without referring to the part of a particular post you are referring and it is essential when it has been suggested that you are twisting what was said ;-)  In general if it is not a discussion to your taste there are plenty more to look at :-)

What do you mean meat isnt essential for survival?!!!!

I Have not put a dead animal in my mouth since 5 years old . I made that choice after going to a country fair where a veal calf sucked my thumb. Meat is not essential for human survival . Food is.. AND thank God,I live in a land of plenty where I can choose  what I fancy eating.

ANOTHER GOLD YIPEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey less of the old!  :-D  lol

LOL ok here is the young, vibrant and youthful Tracey to cheer us all up from this depresisng and upsetting topic that we all feel strongly about!! :)

That better Hun ;)

Im going on my expierances alone and I have deffo found veggies to be less robust meaning less energy and such, not less healthy like I said before.

definetely not. i have loads of energy!. i work as a veterinary nurse in a large hospital, and am on my feet constantly, lifting dogs up and down from tables, restraining them for bloods etc (not easy when its a mad great dane puppy or similar) never sit down, apart from a lunchbreak, and most of that is spent out with my ridgeback boy, scrubbing kennels, walking from my medical ward to pharmacy a hundred times a day, walking all the inpatients, i then come home, and walk the dog again, sometimes have training classes or ringcraft, do a bit of house work, meet up with friends and go to gym several times a week, so not lacking in energy at all, also, i am pale, but always have been, im a typical scot im afraid, my mums a red head and i have a touch of it through my hair, also very freckly, so nothing to do with diet.
im also not anaemic, i donate blood and the iron level gets checked each time and im always fine with that.
if i ever have children i will stay veggie throughout the pregnancy, personal choice of course. and just for the record, my family all eat meat (not really red meat) and my boyf eats chicken and fish so im not anti meat eating!

Amazed that the subject of live skinning has 'just come out' when it was reported on in the news about 4/5 years ago ( at least). carried also in Horse and Hound and other pet mags and the like as well as national newspapers.
I read that it was thought that skinning alive improved the quality of the fur. recent reports show that elephants will soon be extint due to culling for Ivory which is allowed again. What is it with people that they yearn for things that are not necessary? Killing, skinning for use, eating the animals after, ok, but to kill just for fashion/drugs/orniment etc ....why. And in barbaric ways, all the wild animals are at risk in various countries but no one seems to want to listen or take action. One day the animals will be gone, what then.

As to diet, well we are lucky to be able to have choices, and food on the table. Meat or veggie, provided its balanced it should sustain us, paying for it all is the problem today!

> Amazed that the subject of live skinning has 'just come out' when it was reported on in the news about 4/5 years ago ( at least). carried also in Horse and Hound and other pet mags and the like as well as national newspapers.
> I read that it was thought that skinning alive improved the quality of the fur. recent reports show that elephants will soon be extint due to culling for Ivory which is allowed again. What is it with people that they yearn for things that are not necessary? Killing, skinning for use, eating the animals after, ok, but to kill just for fashion/drugs/orniment etc ....why. And in barbaric ways, all the wild animals are at risk in various countries but no one seems to want to listen or take action. One day the animals will be gone, what then

Good point calmstorm,did everyone  also know that in China, where they eat dog as a meat product, they believe the meat tastes better if it it tender and that the release of endorphins and adrenalin into the animal before it is killed helps to tenderise the meat?....there fore they beat the dogs practially into submission before slaughter so the animal releases its own endorphins /adrenalin into its  body before its lead away to be killed.

I think everyone should boycot buying any kind of  animal product from the countries where animal treatment like this goes on untill they are forced to stop it....however for whatever reasons sometimes ,just lack of awareness or cos people cant really be bothered to do anything about it as long "as theyre alright jack", I cant see it happening unfortunately.

philly256, yes, I'm aware of the barbaric dog & cat meat trade :( :( :(
I have seen a few vidoes of the way in which the dogs & cats are kept & killed, what is even more heartbreaking is when you spot a dog in a cage that has a collar on - obviously was somebody's pet before tose evil people got thier hands on it, I can't imagine finding out a missing pet of mine had been brutally tortured, killed & eaten  :( :( :(
I just can't understand how any person can inflict that sort of pain & suffering on another living being???????? When people neglect thier pets, they can have an 'out of sight - out of mind' excuse (not that I am condoning that sort of treatment what-so-ever), but these people cruelly beat, torture & skin live animals, with thier own hands, with no apparent feelings to the plight of the animal, they can feel the animals trying to escape, wincing with pain...... There truly are some frighteningly sick people in this world :( :(
I admit to persuading family members to watch the videos as ignorance is what allows all this evil to carry on happening.

> philly256, yes, I'm aware of the barbaric dog & cat meat trade :-( :-( :-(
> I have seen a few vidoes of the way in which the dogs & cats are kept & killed, what is even more heartbreaking is when you spot a dog in a cage that has a collar on - obviously was somebody's pet before tose evil people got thier hands on it, I can't imagine finding out a missing pet of mine had been brutally tortured, killed & eaten  :-( :-( :-(
> I just can't understand how any person can inflict that sort of pain & suffering on another living being???????? When people neglect thier pets, they can have an 'out of sight - out of mind' excuse (not that I am condoning that sort of treatment what-so-ever), but these people cruelly beat, torture & skin live animals, with thier own hands, with no apparent feelings to the plight of the animal, they can feel the animals trying to escape, wincing with pain...... There truly are some frighteningly sick people in this world :-( :-(
> I admit to persuading family members to watch the videos as ignorance is what allows all this evil to carry on happening.

I feel totally the same mastifflover and I too have made friends and family aware of the videos although most of them cant watch to the end.
I just hope eventually like Ive said before enough people I can tlel about tese issues ,the more may be shocked into doing something about it

Me too.

When I watch some of these videos I feel "tainted" by such evil. I have been yelled at for showing  a niece, (she turned up wearing a jacket"with just a little bit of fur") !!!!!! But I know she is another person who will never wear fur again. Show it in school!!! Shame if it offends the poor little darlings. Only by destroying the ignorance can we hope to move forward.

the more may be shocked into doing something about it
This is the important point !!

Show it in school!!! Shame if it offends the poor little darlings.

Why subject children to watching this, they are not the ones mistreating the animals. Many adults can't watch this, never mind forcing children/teens to then say 'shame if it offends them'. It wouldbe very traumatic to watch, if an adult can't then neither should a child and schools should not have this to show.

but I don't think discussing the need for meat when rejecting fur is off topic at all.

Didn't say it was off topic :-)

Far as I can see the board isn't laid out any different to how it has been in the past, I just see people picking holes in the most miniscule detail is all.
I actually think it's a very fair and interesting discussion, but I can also see how things can often get taken out of context and out of hand.
So if it's all the same, this and many other topics will be looked at by me.
Cheers
:-)

LOL ok here is the young, vibrant and youthful Tracey to cheer us all up from this depresisng and upsetting topic that we all feel strongly about!!

That better Hun 

Much, thank you chick :-) lol

The board has changed while Isabel has been away. Posts used to fall under the post that was replied to and not at the bottom of the thread. Quoting particular points is a uesful tool and why we all have a quote button.

> Show it in schools,Shame if it offends the poor little darlings. .
>

think  that that may be a little harsh especially as they may be quite young children who I dont think would cope very well seeing them,I was meaning more along the lines of adults, however I dont see the harm in telling children about the atrocites going on in the world to make them aware of how wrong they are without having to subject them to the videos of animal cruelty,children understand quite a fair bit if things are explained with out having to be too graphic.

> Only by destroying the ignorance can we hope to move forward.
>
> the more may be shocked into doing something about it
> This is the important point !!

Agree with that bit :)

Sorry I don't mean 5 year olds!
But certainly the almost adults who are beginning to make life choices and decisions.
My niece is 15 . She was adult enough to take the lesson.

why we all have a quote button.

But I can not work out how to .......

Bilbo,
Dont worry its not obvious, when you reply to a post that you want to quote make sure you click reply on *that* persons post.... then you get the box for you to type your comments and below that will be the person your replying to's comments..and...below that box is a very teeeny tiny little white and grey box bottom left.. you highlight the text you want to quote then press the teeeny tiny grey button :-)
HTH

> But I can not work out how to .......

HG has explained but, you know, converting into teenie text works just as well :-)

> post that you want to quote

Like this?? Thanks HG and Isabel

> Like this?? Thanks HG and Isabel

thanks i never figured out how to do that either :)

> Sorry I don't mean 5 year olds!
> But certainly the almost adults who are beginning to make life choices and decisions.
> My niece is 15 . She was adult enough to take the lesson.

Sorry if I sounded like I was having a go...I wasnt,its so hard on here to type what your trying to say without it sounding nasty and I relly wouldnt want anyone to think that I resort to being nasty to get a point across If I dont agree with something,Im not like that  :) I was just meaning I dont think young children could cope with see ing such horrible things...older children  like your neice,yes good idea

It can be so hard to get a point across some times. No offence was taken. It would take a lot more than a difference of opinion to offend me any way LOL

Hi all

as some of you know my hubby works for WSPA and has seen first hand the 'traditional' methods that other cultures use as an intrinsic part of the meat or fur trade. It is quite correct to say that in many cases ,  animals are skinned whilst alive - if it is done for meat then the belief is that the more adrenaline the animal releases the increased medicinal value of the meat ( dog and cat meat are eaten to increase virility and to 'heat' the blood ).
Pelts are often removed whilst the animal is alive to avoid  costs and lessen the marking of the fur i.e by clubbing etc.

However we must remember that we are dealing with a wholly diffferent culture - life is hard for many humans in many of these countries -dogs are farmed for their meat and treated as other livestock -
the answer lies in education - WSPA works with Government agencies and has had a significant impact in changing the demand for dog and cat meat - it is now mostly consumed by the older generation - and seen  as undesirable by many of the younger population.

as to the fur trade - well again the answer lies in education - but this time in the affluent West ! - the demand for fur comes from those countries with high disposable incomes -NOT from the Koreans or Chinese themselves - we need to educate those who contiinue to believe that fur looks better on them than on the creature it came from originally !!!

Yvonne

> Hi all
>
> as some of you know my hubby works for WSPA and has seen first hand the 'traditional' methods that other cultures use as an intrinsic part of the meat or fur trade. It is quite correct to say that in many cases ,  animals are skinned whilst alive - if it is done for meat then the belief is that the more adrenaline the animal releases the increased medicinal value of the meat ( dog and cat meat are eaten to increase virility and to 'heat' the blood ).
> Pelts are often removed whilst the animal is alive to avoid  costs and lessen the marking of the fur i.e by clubbing etc.
>
> However we must remember that we are dealing with a wholly diffferent culture - life is hard for many humans in many of these countries -dogs are farmed for their meat and treated as other livestock -
> the answer lies in education - WSPA works with Government agencies and has had a significant impact in changing the demand for dog and cat meat - it is now mostly consumed by the older generation - and seen as undesirable by many of the younger population.
>

> as to the fur trade - well again the answer lies in education - but this time in the affluent West ! - the demand for fur comes from those countries with high disposable incomes -NOT from the Koreans or Chinese themselves - we need to educate those who contiinue to believe that fur looks better on them than on the creature it came from originally !!!
>
> Yvonne

At last,the voice of reason and  said better than ive been trying to........im sure SOME people on this thread assumed I was some sort of Animal Liberation front  person trying to shock, especially about animals being skinned alive, I DO know what im talking about just maybe dont have the right words to express my point.

100% agree with all youve said Yvonne :)

Well said Yvonne :)

as to the fur trade - well again the answer lies in education - but this time in the affluent West ! - the demand for fur comes from those countries with high disposable incomes -NOT from the Koreans or Chinese themselves

But these people in China and Korea still kill these animals in a disgusting horrific way, just cause the demand is coming form someone else doesnt mean they not to be held accountable just as much and if anything are even stupidier then I thought for doing other peoples dirty work, they always take a cut of the profits too so also have plenty innocent blood on their own hands.

We have slums and very poor places all over Britain, yet we dont start eating dogs or cats off the streeets and taking peoples pets to the slaughter for our own pocket, I mean come on they steal peoples pets, how low and disgusting is that?? Not to mention downright wrong and crushing for the people involved??!!!

Sorry Yvonna its not comment directed at you as I know you made a good point about the rest and it is taken on, just that point I had a problem with I needed to address for myself!!

Interesting item in the Telegraph today.
I doubt Gwyneth is ignorant of the issues and rather suspect she is more in tune with the comments expressed by the British Fur Trade Association.

>I mean come on they steal peoples pets, how low and disgusting is that?? Not to mention downright wrong and crushing for the people involved??!!!

When you consider that the Chinese officials do that in their occasional purges of dogs, then it's easier to understand why other people do as well.

> We have slums and very poor places all over Britain

We have nothing that comes close to poverty that the undeveloped world experiences.

Not for me it isnt JG

I cant accept culling or horrific killings of any animals, from the tiny ant to the massive elephant every animal is the same and should be treated as such.
To kill peoples pets so they can buy it back later is so wrong I cant find a word to describe just how wrong i and barabric it is.

If the animals were PTS over there in the same way we do here or in an at least humane way maybe I could understand a tiny tiny bit, but while their killing by skinning alive they are to me the scum of the earth, and no one will change my opinion of them apart from themselves.

Why does anyone stick up for these people?

>Why does anyone stick up for these people?

I don't think anyone is, are they? But one needs to face reality. I'm sure people in other countries don't understand some of the things that we do (why do we eat cow but not horse, for example? Completely illogical); if you understand cultural differences then you can perhaps begin to change things.

I see where your coming from I honestly do JG and I aint being stubborn, I suppose your right tho about it being cultrel but still dont mean I have to like it lol
I cant stand what they do and it makes me sick to ever think that we would do it.

Food groups are food groups I suppose :( :( :(
But taking peoples pets with collars on is still very EVIL.

You can understand things without agreeing with them! ;-)

Of course there are cultural differences in which animals are killed for consumption, as far as I am concerned what I object to is if these animals are not treated humanely - regardless of whether they are being killed for food or fur they should not be subjected to cruelty. If we in this country buy fur it seems likely that it has come from sources in other countries where cruelty has been involved, and surely we would all agree that whatever we use animals for, they deserve a reasonable quality of life and a humane death. 

very well said Honeybee

Completely agree with Honeybee

> Watching the programme last night made me think of a story that has recently appeared in the local media in my area.  A family pet rabbit was stolen from outdooor hutch and skinned overnight.  The pelt was then returned minus the poor rabbit.  I would hate to think of the person who did this to the poor rabbit.  the link is below to the story.  It makes you wonder if awareness raising programme like this one bring out the psychos.
>
> http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2008/08/12/newsstory11790849t0.asp

PETA have put up a £1500 reward to catch the person who did this.