> How is there 'no way' that the fox skinned alive video (which i have seen) was set up by antis.. how? You have proof it wasnt?
>

> But.. i refuse to blindly believe all that the likes of PETA try to shove down my throat - they are as corrupt as anything!

I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cant be bothered to be further disscussing my view with people who just want to keep going over the same point which has nothing to do with my origonal post in this thread.
Fact is wether the video was set up or not,(which I do not believe it was),NO-ONE has the right to kill any animal in such a barbaric inhumane and cruel way for whatever reason and  all I said in my first post was If people were as horrified by the programme as  they said they were,then please instead of just being upset and doing nothing maybe they could be upset AND do something like writing letters to the relevant authorites asking for this practice to be stopped as it may help.I didnt  want to have to argue the rights and wrongs and the in and outs of what ever i believe in cos I figure im fighting a losing battle anyway.

FRANKLY if people want to wear fur,leather,eat meat, whatever as long as the animal is not subjected to a horrid death or the animal has not just been killed for sport or purely for its fur...Go ahead,do what you like....My first post was never intended to change or convert anyone to my beliefs

All I know is I believe what I believe and I dont think I should be continually having to defend myself on here when people obviously dont share the same view and are obviously missing my point that I origonally tried to make.

well said philly256, i have spoke to so many people who was to horrified to watch this programe and to be honest i was too, but ive not sat back ive told friends and family to do something about it and not just forget about it, my sister cannot sleep with imagines she has in her mind and she was only able to watch the first 10 mins,

also can you pm me the list of the shops i need to write to,, thankyou

> well said philly256, i have spoke to so many people who was to horrified to watch this programe and to be honest i was too, but ive not sat back ive told friends and family to do something about it and not just forget about it, my sister cannot sleep with imagines she has in her mind and she was only able to watch the first 10 mins,

At last..someone who took my origonal point as it was meant...good on you for not sitting back and forgetting about it  and for wanting to do something about it :) :)

thanks for pm, im on to it going to write to each and everyone,

Of course no one has the right to kill animals inhumanely - my problem is that every time someone sets something up to look deceive viewers, every time some AR organisation cleverly edits footage, every time a letter bomb is sent or animals released or graves defiled..

Every time these things happen, REAL animal rights issues lose supporters, get lost under the screaming hysteria of those who have been taken in by what they have been shown.

So right now you are absolutely (and rightly) horrified by what you have seen that supposedly happens in china, and you are doing xy and z to stop it.

But are you doing these things as WELL as say, voting with your purse where imported meat is concerned, or battery eggs or intensively farmed chicken?

Now if you are, fair enough and i take my hat off to you.. but if not... well..

Do you not feel angry that people can, and DO set out purposely to deceive us with cleverly edited video, misleading narratives... i know i do, especially when it detracts from other animal welfare atrocities, going on around us in THIS country all the time!

I've turned it off. I can't watch it anymore, I'm crying so much...that poor skinned fox, blinking

I seriously hope you dont mean a fox was skinned alive and blinking as it was STILL ALIVE???!!!

I cant watch programmes like that, it makes me want to go riot in fur shops in London and rip their whole store down with them in it :(
Programmes that make you angry but you cant help shouldnt be aired :(

I do everything I can to help with animal welfare, Ive adopted a dog from Blue Cross, only buy free range chicken be it eggs or fillets etc, every little I can do I will do, but these programmes make me feel so useless :(

> But are you doing these things as WELL as say, voting with your purse where imported meat is concerned, or battery eggs or intensively farmed chicken?
>
> Now if you are, fair enough and i take my hat off to you.. but if not... well..

Im a veggie so I dont eat animals anyway

> Of course no one has the right to kill animals inhumanely - my problem is that every time someone sets something up to look deceive viewers, every time some AR organisation cleverly edits footage, every time a letter bomb is sent or animals released or graves defiled..

I do not believe violence solves violence ie graves being defiled or letter bombs sent,but once caught and prosecuted in the right way for committing a terrible act I believe that the punishment should fit the crime eg if you commit murder you lose you own right to life etc etc.
(No way do I want to start  a religious debate by saying this  but even the bible says an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, im just using it to clarify my beliefs on punishment fitting the crime).

I agree that sometimes because of the few that send letter bombs etc real Animal rights issues lose support.
But I do feel that perhaps by writing letters to the authorites  concerned,refusing to buy from stores that sell fur etc and by speaking out against what I believe is wrong I am doing my bit, no matter how small to help,perhaps I wont have the impact a letter bomb will have or by defiling someones grave to get my point across, but my concience is clear thanks I am not doing anything wrong and maybe if enough of us did it we would be taken more notice of

> Do you not feel angry that people can, and DO set out purposely to deceive us with cleverly edited video, misleading narratives... i know i do, especially when it detracts from other animal welfare atrocities, going on around us in THIS country all the time

If it happens then yes I would feel angry but I dont feel like any of the many videos ive seen have been set up to mislead.
Also every animal atrocity going on at any time being in this country or wherever is totally wrong and should  be stopped...Full stop, but we happened to be discussing the skinning of animals alive in other countries in this thread so that's what my argument has concentrated on.
If you want to ask my opinions on what goes on in this country go ahead ill be happy to share them with you  :)

> they are the stupid idiots who released thousands of captive mink into our countryside which have decimated large areas of rivers killing everything in their wake. This is something i have a lot of experience of and am currently involved in a mink trapping campaign on our stretch of river and ponds......10 so far this year!!!

now i am anti fur- basically if i wouldn't eat it i won't wear it, but who the hell thought this was a good idea?? they decimated the local wildlife. sam it's lovely to hear that your otters and ducks etc are getting abck on their feet from it.

>> they are the stupid idiots who released thousands of captive mink into our countryside which have decimated large areas of rivers killing everything in their wake. This is something i have a lot of experience of and am currently involved in a mink trapping campaign on our stretch of river and ponds......10 so far this year!!!
> now i am anti fur- basically if i wouldn't eat it i won't wear it, but who the hell thought this was a good idea?? they decimated the local wildlife. sam it's lovely to hear that your otters and ducks etc are getting abck on their feet from it.

I dont agree with what happened either,as I said earleir I dont believe in violence or extreme measures  to solve anything, but by releasing these mink into the wild ,yes i agree local wildlife suffered and yes i am glad it has recovered.....I do however agree that the mink should never have been farmed in the first place but not all Animal Rights go to such extreeme lengths to try to get people to listen to them  ...I dont.

Trouble is most of the time people like me who use words and letters e-mails,peacefull means of protest  etc get ignored or ridiculed or shouted down, so unfortunately  some people do believe  the only ways to get your point across is extreme drastic action as it makes people sit up and take notice,wether the  world  agrees or not with the said action,they  by these actions make sure the  world gets to hear the plight of the animal.
Im sick of saying I personally do not agree with extreme action but I  understand frustration at being ignored and nothing being done about it

philly said "Rabbits or dear  that are already dead,killed humanely for culling puposes, I suppose I can live with  as it does keep numbers manageable, although I would, in an ideal world, prefer them to die a natural death."

now i have to say i find these sort of commentreally odd and wonder if people really know anything when they make them.....has this poster any idea how a deer dies a natural death??? Do you imagine they just retire gracefully and quietly die a peaceful death in their sleep??? no....deer die "naturally" because their teeth have fallen out and they have died a long painful death by starvation. At least the ones we cull (and yes we do enjoy going deer stalking) are alive one moment, grazing happily, and stone dead the next from a single HL shot.....no days/weeks of misery for them....unless of course we spot them in this state and they are in season, and then we will cull them on hunmanitarian grounds. Nature is cruel in tooth and claw sop please dont imagine some scene from Bambi with them all skipping round the pastures til they die of old age!!!
likewise the rabbits dying of natural death....would this include death by predator? have you ever seen a fox catching rabbits and heard them squeal? not sure how on earth that can be compared to a single .22 shot and instant death....that they dont see coming or suffer from.

> but I will say people who believe in  Animal Rights are not nesessarily the same "stupid Idiots who go round releasing mink into the wild " etc etc as People have so politely labelled them on this thread.
>
>

I think many people have a problem with animal Rights, but most are in favour and support Animal Welfare.  They are not the same.

Sam - Just out of interest are you saying that no Deer or Rabbits die of natural causes?

Just curious as we have had pet rabbits that lived to a grand age and died without being killed by foxes etc. I can appreciate where you are coming from as you have a different viewpoint from the op but a few of us feel quite shocked and saddened that anyone could skin an animal alive (although I have my reservations about skinning any animal dead or alive) and believe that this is totally unacceptable. I would also have to wonder what sort of mindset someone who skinned an animal alive had and whether they would be capable of doing much worse (although to an animal I doubt it could get any worse than being skinned alive).

Again this is a difficult debate as it is really about our beliefs as to what is and isn't acceptable and you cannot change someones beliefs with any statistics. I think it is obvious that the op is against the sort of extremist actions that are detrimental to the animals as i'm sure most of us are but peaceful protests and letters/emails and as someone else mentioned buying the right sort of meat and eggs etc is a great start. :-)

>Just out of interest are you saying that no Deer or Rabbits die of natural causes?

'Natural causes' for prey animals generally means being killed by a predator (which of course includes Man since before they were hunting mammoths!). If they manage to avoid this they usually die of disease or stravation, riddled with parasites.

> I cant watch programmes like that, it makes me want to go riot in fur shops in London and rip their whole store down with them in it :-(
>

Well, that would be a shame without finding out first where they source their furs from first. 
This is the difficulty I have with this thread.  The exposure of some cruel practices in China are being lumped together with other farming and capture and killing practices that bear no relation and cannot be truly objected to by anyone who utilises animal products such as meat or leather.

I know where the furs are sourced but I cant very well go and rip down all the countries in Europe who condone such barbaric methods of obtaining clothing, but believe me if I could I damned well would!

Indians kill animals for hide and skin, but they use the whole animal and never kill more then they or their clan need, fair enough its survival.
Its not survival when animals are cruelly killed for their skin with no thought to if they have young etc or how to how these are now domistacated animals and then flog it on to the highest bidder.

Same as I will not buy Ivory I will not buy fur and if I see real fur anywhere I can not gurantee I wont have one hell of a go at the shop keeper, even if he isnt the killer he still stocks the stuff and thats just pumping money into the revenue for it, same as we say dont buy puppies from puppy farmers to fund them, my view iz exactly the same on fur on clothes and ivory and whales and sharks fins etc

The exposure of some cruel practices in China are being lumped together with other farming and capture and killing practices that bear no relation and cannot be truly objected to by anyone who utilises animal products such as meat or leather

I have said nothing about this as I dont know enough about it apart from the basics (how cows etc are slain) so Im not gonna comment on this , just expressing my hard thoughts on how the fur trade should be banned and stopped NOW!

> I know where the furs are sourced

I take it you mean you do not differentiate regarding the source.  I really can't see the difference in eating meat and wearing a hide, be it fur or tanned.  Neither are essential for survival and from the animals point of view it matters nothing.

EH?
What do you mean meat isnt essential for survival?!!!!
We have been eating meat since time began for us and its not natural when we are veggies or vegans or what ever, we miss out on vital essential ingrediants to our diet and immune systems if we miss out meat and none of the vedggies I have seen look half as healthy as someone who eats a well balanced diet of meat, fruit, pulse, vedge and carbs!
I agree the way we mass kill these poor creatures is wrong but we alsi have to eat and these are our food sources or we have deemed them to be anyway hence why they are mass produced, but they are killed quicly and humaly, not disgustingly and barbaricly like these scum.

And you got it in one, I dont see one person better for stocking but not skinning the animal fur/hide, both as evil as each other.

Wearing a hide is needed maybe in indian/african cultures where its your only protection from the sun and wind or cold, but here where we have clothes ready made to order, so no, we dont need skins and hides on top of all that if it could be done without, its easy money to skin a helpless animal or steal its tusk and same as puppy farmers the people with no souls will continue to do it until their made to stop.

> philly said "Rabbits or dear  that are already dead,killed humanely for culling puposes, I suppose I can live with  as it does keep numbers manageable, although I would, in an ideal world, prefer them to die a natural death."
>
> now i have to say i find these sort of commentreally odd and wonder if people really know anything when they make them.....has this poster any idea how a deer dies a natural death??? Do you imagine they just retire gracefully and quietly die a peaceful death in their sleep??? no....deer die "naturally" because their teeth have fallen out and they have died a long painful death by starvation. At least the ones we cull (and yes we do enjoy going deer stalking) are alive one moment, grazing happily, and stone dead the next from a single HL shot.....no days/weeks of misery for them....unless of course we spot them in this state and they are in season, and then we will cull them on hunmanitarian grounds. Nature is cruel in tooth and claw sop please dont imagine some scene from Bambi with them all skipping round the pastures til they die of old age!!!
> likewise the rabbits dying of natural death....would this include death by predator? have you ever seen a fox catching rabbits and heard them squeal? not sure how on earth that can be compared to a single .22 shot and instant death....that they dont see coming or suffer from.

Sam
Excuse me  but I think your splitting hairs(scuse the pun) now......ive just said I suppose I  can live with rabbits, dear etc being culled to control numbers...what else more do you want from me and no I for one do not imagine dear having some kind of Bambi like idealic life ...but animals being killed by another animal for food is nature and like I said before animals think primatively and are not equiped with the train of thought we are  as humans about the rights and wrong ways to kill something so please do not try and make out I dont know anything or that I am stupid.......  and yes I do know the difference to a rifle shot killing something and another animal killing something ......I wasnt comparing it  I just said which I would prefer and fair enough if you happen to "enjoy" dear stalking,I personally would not "enjoy" the killing of any animal,so I dont understand why people do even though out of necessity I know  it has to be done. Also yes if I was out walking and came across some animal in pain and riddled with disease I would take it to a vet and have it pts humanely to stop it suffering,that it entirely different to skinning an animal alive which is what this thread was about in the first place.
I have never once tried to belittle you in any of my answers to any of your posts or to try to make you look stupid to other posters on this forum ,I have  only ever asked why on some of you opinions ,like you are entitled to do with mine,please extend me the same curtasy

> Again this is a difficult debate as it is really about our beliefs as to what is and isn't acceptable and you cannot change someones beliefs with any statistics. I think it is obvious that the op is against the sort of extremist actions that are detrimental to the animals as i'm sure most of us are but peaceful protests and letters/emails and as someone else mentioned buying the right sort of meat and eggs etc is a great start. :-) <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Thank you :)

Also when you are skinning for the tanning market then the most important factor is keeping the pelt intact and perfect and if you have an animal struggling or trying to bite you or escape then you have slim chance of getting the pelt off without a nick somewhere....so...to me it just doesnt add up!!

I think they reason the fox  did not struggle and bite, is because first the Chines... smash their heads on the grown, if they are lucky they die from that  ,  then after skinning they are thrown onto a pile, , some will be dead , some are not... and die in agony.

> EH?
> What do you mean meat isnt essential for survival?!!!! <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">
> We have been eating meat since time began for us and its not natural when we are veggies or vegans or what ever, we miss out on vital essential ingrediants to our diet and immune systems if we miss out meat and none of the vedggies I have seen look half as healthy as someone who eats a well balanced diet of meat, fruit, pulse, vedge and carbs!
>

Perhaps would should ask Philly about that? :-)  I was a vegetarian myself for about 8 years and was perfectly healthy and only started eating meat when free range meats became more available.

> And you got it in one, I dont see one person better for stocking but not skinning the animal fur/hide, both as evil as each other.

I think you are completing missing my point about sources.  I mean some furs come from humane rearing and killing practices and some don't so, in my opinion anyway, the stockist who only purchase from the former are more ethical that those who stock regardless.
Do you wear leather, shoes or whatever?

> EH?
> What do you mean meat isnt essential for survival?!!!! <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">
> We have been eating meat since time began for us and its not natural when we are veggies or vegans or what ever, we miss out on vital essential ingrediants to our diet and immune systems if we miss out meat and none of the vedggies I have seen look half as healthy as someone who eats a well balanced diet of meat, fruit, pulse, vedge and carbs!
> I agree the way we mass kill these poor creatures is wrong but we alsi have to eat and these are our food sources or we have deemed them to be anyway hence why they are mass produced, but they are killed quicly and humaly, not disgustingly and barbaricly like these scum.
>
> And you got it in one, I dont see one person better for stocking but not skinning the animal fur/hide, both as evil as each other.
>
> Wearing a hide is needed maybe in indian/african cultures where its your only protection from the sun and wind or cold, but here where we have clothes ready made to order, so no, we dont need skins and hides on top of all that if it could be done without, its easy money to skin a helpless animal or steal its tusk and same as puppy farmers the people with no souls will continue to do it until their made to stop.

I am a veggie and I dont eat any animal,I am quite healthy as far as I know and so are all my veggie eating friends.
I dont mind if people choose to eat meat,its their choice its up to them,my arguement has never been about people eating or not eating meat,its about the cruel way animals are raised, killed for fur ,meat or whatever.
For example if people want to eat eggs then i would ask that they dont eat battery farmed eggs and choose organic free range eggs where the chickens have had a good life,not stuck in some overcrowded sheds with no light their beaks and feathers clipped and their legs deformed as there is no room to move or grow properly being force fed corn so they lay loads of eggs.

Thats the only point i wanted to make about your post,the health thing, other than that you make some good points

> Perhaps would should ask Philly about that? :-)&nbsp; I was a vegetarian myself for about 8 years and was perfectly healthy and only started eating meat when free range meats became more available.

Lol see my reply to Rach Isabel :) I dont miss out on anything and I am the right weight for my height give or take 1 or 2 pounds,you can live perfectly healthy as a veggie ,its hard at first as so many products and additives  contain animal derivatives, such as Geletin or cocheneal, but once you know what you can and cant eat your fine. I eat loads of veggies, take Veggie vitamin supplements and quorn and so do my friends...all are alive and well and truly kicking lol :)

> Sam - Just out of interest are you saying that no Deer or Rabbits die of natural causes?
>

not wanting to speak for anyone but of course thats not what shes saying! what sam seems to have been pointing out is that we shouldn;t have a vctorian view of nature as just pretty and 'hey nonny nonny, everythigns lovely', that it can be pretty nasty to. besides what are natural causes if not starvation from age as she outline in the deer??

> 'Natural causes' for prey animals generally means being killed by a predator (which of course includes Man since before they were hunting mammoths!). If they manage to avoid this they usually die of disease or stravation, riddled with parasites

ah, the beauty of nature...

> its hard at first as so many products and additives&nbsp; contain animal derivatives

It's a darn sight easy now than when I was a veggie! :-)  Labelling was extremely hit and miss then but on the other hand, as I had no ethical objection to eating meat in itself, I was not that picky :-)

> 'Natural causes' for prey animals generally means being killed by a predator (which of course includes Man since before they were hunting mammoths!). If they manage to avoid this they usually die of disease or stravation, riddled with parasites.

Thank-you Jeangenie, I gather then that "some" animals out there will die peacefully of old age ;-)

> not wanting to speak for anyone but of course thats not what shes saying! what sam seems to have been pointing out is that we shouldn;t have a vctorian view of nature as just pretty and 'hey nonny nonny, everythigns lovely', that it can be pretty nasty to. besides what are natural causes if not starvation from age as she outline in the deer??

Do you really think anyone has that view?

your the one that questioned sams point, who was talking about wild animals, not pets as you then started discussing

I was asking whether it was possible for a rabbit or deer to die peacefully of old age...

Of course I realise there would be far greater chance of a pet rabbit to die of old age than a wild one. The reason I raised the question was because I was geniunely intrigued because I know very little about wild animals and was suprised that all deers would if they reached old age lose their teeth and die of starvation.

I must admit to finding your post slightly aggressive and would appreciate it if you could extend me some courtesy when responding to my posts. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate but just because we don't share the same beliefs does not make me more or less of a person.

>I gather then that "some" animals out there will die peacefully of old age 

Wild animals don't often live to be old ... grazing animals wear out their teeth so can no longer graze - as they starve they get weaker and weaker and, if lucky, will be 'put out of their misery' by a predator. If not, they continue to starve to death.

Captive animals, if 'properly' cared for, have much longer, healthier lives.

> Captive animals, if 'properly' cared for, have much longer, healthier lives.

That answers my question as to why ours lived to old age then :-)

> Wild animals don't often live to be old ... grazing animals wear out their teeth so can no longer graze - as they starve they get weaker and weaker and, if lucky, will be 'put out of their misery' by a predator. If not, they continue to starve to death.
>

Oh dear :-(
I don't profess to know alot about how wild animals live/die so thank-you for putting me on the right path :-)

i assure you that my response was not aggressive, i'm sorry that you took it that way.

> I was geniunely intrigued because I know very little about wild animals and was suprised that all deers would if they reached old age lose their teeth and die of starvation.
>

i doubt very much that every elderly animal dies this way, there are of course various other factors. not predation for adult deer without wolves and bear i suppose but i;d imagine freezing in winter, accidents or whatever would be as usual a cause

Sam - wholeheartedly agree about the mink and I'm glad you have managed to get the wildlife back on track. A few years back we had a similar problem with mink round here and the little blighters had about 3 of my mums hens....they're vicious little things!

rach - not wanting to argue but just wondering what essential ingrediants veggies miss out on? ive been vegetarian for 14 years now, and im 23, and i have to say im pretty healthy. i get an intensive medical each year for my job, and i always come away a picture of health. im above average height, almost perfect weight :)   my hair is shiny andmy nails are strong and healthy. i have no medical conditions at all, and am almost never ill.
to my knowledge, there is nothing that is found in meat products that cannot be found elsewhere. i eat a lot of nuts and beans for protein, i get my omega oils elsewhere etc etc

Thats the only point i wanted to make about your post,the health thing, other than that you make some good points

Thank you :) x

Suz1985 Im not one to argue ;) lol
Its just my own view that vedggies arent as robust and healthy as people who have a well balanced diet from eating all the food groups, I aint saying that your unhealthy! if your a vedggie but since we have been designed and evolved to eat meat I just notice that veggies seem a bit less robust, or it may just be the people I know and thats where my expierance of veggies comes from, Matts auntie is a veggie and she doesnt look healthy :( She has pale pasty skin, iz very thin and never has energy, its nothing medical as she has regular check ups because she is veggie to make sure shes strong, and its effected her kids eating habits it would seem as 1 is real fussy eater and 1 is a vegan only aged 10, surely being vegan that young isnt good when your growing iz it out of intrest?
Just my own personal view but Im always willing to be proved wrong :)
Veggies I know tend to have more wind then us meat eaters from eating so many beans!!! LOLOLOL ;)

> Veggies I know tend to have more wind then us meat eaters from eating so many beans!!! LOLOLOL

Another myth.  If you eat pulses regularly, which you will if you are vegetarian, the bacteria of the gut adjusts.  Although I now eat meat I eat far more meals based on pulses so I can vouch for this :-)
I wonder if your friends have just dropped meat from their plates without really adjusting their diet sensibly as this is something a lot of young people seem to do, particularly when they are not the main cook of the house.  If anything the vegetarians I know tend to be much healthy than the meat eaters.

Isabel trust me it aint no myth when your smelling it for yourself!! lolol

Im going on my expierances alone and I have deffo found veggies to be less robust meaning less energy and such, not less healthy like I said before.
Maybe your one of the pro veggies who does everythig right but like you even said many young people dont do it righ so they are better off to stay meat eaters then really arent they and get a well balanced diet.

Just a query for you guys.....
Does being veggie efect you when your pregnant?
IE does the doctor advise you to eat meat for the babies sake and growth etc?

> many young people dont do it righ so they are better off to stay meat eaters then really arent they and get a well balanced diet.

Yes they are if they are not able to learn to eat properly but then many young meat eaters don't eat properly either.
Lack of energy, "less robust" and smelly sounds jolly unhealthy to me.

Lack of energy, "less robust" and smelly sounds jolly unhealthy to me

Thats what Im saying, being a veggie doesnt suit everyone cause it has the effect Ive highlighted from your post :)

You started by saying vegetarians per se were unhealthy but really it is just people who eat a poor and inadequate diet.  This would apply to meat eaters too.

>Does being veggie efect you when your pregnant? IE does the doctor advise you to eat meat for the babies sake and growth etc?

No - plenty of vegetables for the protein and roughage is positively beneficial - meat is higher fat and therefore pregnant women (back in my day!) were advised to cut down on it andincrease the amount of vegetable protein instead.

The smelliest people are those eating the high-fat, meat-based Atkins-type diet ...

It's blindingly obvious that if people eat an unbalanced diet, whether meat-based (think of the 'burger generation'!) or vegetarian, they won't be healthy.

>Just a query for you guys.....
>Does being veggie efect you when your pregnant?
>IE does the doctor advise you to eat meat for the babies sake and growth etc?

I don't know what doctors advise in general advise but my friend had been vegetarian for many years; remained vegetarian throughout her pregnancy, gave birth naturally to twins who were both a very healthy weight (one nearly 6lb and one over 7lb).  She then found the energy to breastfeed them both for 5-6 months :-)  The twins have been raised vegetarian and are very healthy 9 year olds now.

Incidentally, my friend is not vegetarian for ethical reasons.  She has psoriasis and meat exacerbates it terribly so she gave up meat to improve the health of her skin.  At no time did any of the medical professionals advise her to eat meat during her pregnancy.  She has an older son who was born before she became vegetarian and who eats meat...her veggie twins are every bit as healthy as he is and have never been ill apart from regular childhood illnesses that the vast majority of children contract at some stage (chicken pox etc.) :-)

Ahh thanks for that JG and ShaynL, cleared that up nicely, I didnt think it would but always good to know  :)

The smelliest people are those eating the high-fat, meat-based Atkins-type diet ...

Oh god dont bring up the death diet lol
The Atkins is such a bad diet, no one should cut out all those food groups and its not like being veggie where you make up for it, its just cut out for good.
All these new researches coming out proving what Ive always thought about this type of diet where you cut out food being bad, eating balanced and helathy isnt hard!

Isabel It was in reference to the veggies, not meat eaters and I want to keep it that way please as its my view and it doesnt apply to meat eaters in my eyes from my own expierance.

> Isabel It was in reference to the veggies, not meat eaters and I want to keep it that way please as its my view and it doesnt apply to meat eaters in my eyes from my own expierance.

In my eyes it does so I'll feel free to state it if it's all the same to you :-)

Feel free hun :) Just dont twist my words to get your point across :)

You started by saying vegetarians per se were unhealthy

This is also untrue which you stated, I said veggies werent unhelthy maybe just a little less go in them which from what Ive heard on here just seems to be the people I know, so feel free to voice your self hun like I do, just dont twist my words to do so please :)

>EH?

>What do you mean meat isnt essential for survival?!!!! 

you say tomato, I say tom-ay-to,
you say potato, I say pot-ay-to....

:-)
Gotta inject some humour here people, sorry!
Horses for courses and all that, the topic is re a programme on the telly box, LOVE to read peoples views and so on, but don't let it get out of hand...
Can't bear all this quoting, re-quoting malarky.
Everyone is different, be a dull world if we weren't.
I personally LOVE eating meat AND vegetables AND pulses AND ... oooh mmmm, breakfast time!

Don't love to wear fur though, and going on what I've read on this thread, sounds like an extremely thought provoking programme.  Each to their own opinion. :-)

Good Old Tracey, here to lighten us all up :)

Everyone is different, be a dull world if we weren't.
Completely friggin agree wid that one hun!! :)

Has gone slight off topic aint it LOL !