We recently saw an advert in a paper for some Doberman puppies - we already have one (our two year old "little girl!") and were considering getting a boy.

The Father of the puppies is only 14 months old and the Mother just two, I thought that this seemed very young as usually the rule is that the mother must be at least two years of age, and for hip-scoring purposes the male needs to be two also (this is what I have been led to believe).

I believe that there was a previous litter and haven't yet established if the same bitch had this litter (which would have made her about 13 months when she was preganant with them, leaving only a 3 month gap between her previous litter and the recent one (puppies are 1 month old).

I am just concerned that all is not what it seems, and don't want to pay money to a breeder (don't know if they are registered or not?) if they are not doing it solely for the benefit of the breed, instead of money making opportunities. I feel we have a moral responsibility aswell to ensure we aren't buying from a "puppy farm"

I look forward to your reply.

Many Thanks.

Hi Guest
My honest opinion is if you have ANY doubts don't do it, go somewhere else and get a pup. :(
You raise the issue of *farming* here and the motivation for the litter, these are only some of many issues that would bother me over this litter. I would also be concerned about the ages of Sire & Dam if you are right about the relevant health tests, the follow up support from the *breeder* and also the health of the pup's, not just now but in the future. There are a multitude of hereditary illness' in each & every breed, I don't know what they are in Dobes, but a badly bred pup has more chance of becoming ill than a quality puppy from a recognised, reputable breeder. :)
You don't actually say in your post what your motivation is for getting a boy pup, but if it is for a possible start in breeding then you would be advised to think it over really carefully before you breed a litter. Also if it is your intention to breed then your main aim in buying this pup should be to make certain that his lineage (pedigree) is compatible with your bitch, and the best person to go to for advice on this (and any breeding aspirations you may have) is your bitches breeder. :)
HTH. :D
Nicky

Hi Guest

I gather you are in the States where hip scoring is not done until two years of age (although preliminary x-rays with Penhip can be done much earlier)

Some of the tests Dobes should have had done are
von Willebrands disease
Eye testing (for PHPV)
Hip X-rays
others include
CAH
Thyroid
Dilated Cardiomyopathy which is much more readily available in the US than it is in the UK

Christine

Thanks for your advise Christine.

I'm not in America, I'm just mis-informed!! Do you know the age that hip-scoring can be done in the UK? I knew that preliminary x-rays could be done before the age of 2 but I thought that the age was a universal thing (need to read more literature!!!). From what I gather, if you are a registered breeder you must not allow your bitch to have a litter before the age of 2 years - is this correct?? My original question concerned the age of Sire and Dam as they would both have been under the age of 2 (Sire is only 14 months now, and the puppies are 4 weeks old), I just wonder if they were too young to have a "healthy" litter especially if the dam (who is just 2) has already had one litter at 13 months old.

Emma

hi, i am in the Uk and my vet won't hip score until the dogs are 2yrs old, at the earliest, but prefers them to be 2.5 yrs old. When they are skeletaly mature, as an inaccurate reading can be obtain prior to this age. Don't know what other vets in the uk do, but he's a good vet and I trust his opinion. I got mine x-rayed to check his hips but as yet he's not been scored, because he's not 2.5 yet.

It is true that the most relaible result is obtained when the dog is skeletally mature, but the scheme in UK allows dogs to be scored at 12 months.

Thanks for replying. I have no intentions of breeding from my bitch, I am a firm believer in leaving it to the experts! I just wouldn't feel confident enough to undertake such a big commitment especially if there were any complications. Our motivation for wanting a boy is that we have wanted a dog as opposed to a bitch for some time, and when we saw the advert, we just thought we would go and take a look.

Hi
I hope I didn't offend you when I mentioned breeding, but I assumed you were wanting to as your post title was *Breeding Dobermans*, sorry! :O
Have you decided to leave it and look elsewhere?
I'm sure there are lots of Dobe owners/lovers/breeders posting here who could give you some contact numbers. :)
Nicky

Hi Nicky,

We are still undecided about the puppies, I think I need to ask more questions. If the breeder takes offence to my questions then that will really tell me that they are not being up-front about things. If they are happy to have a chat about any medical conditions that the Sire, Dam or other relatives have had then at least I will know that they are honest. As we have no intention of breeding I am not overly concerned about pure blood-lines (if we were thinking of breeding then obviously it would be a big concern), I just see it that the puppies are here now and it's not their fault that SOME (not all by any means!) so called breeders dabble in things they know nothing about. When we bought our bitch, we felt confident that she was from "good stock." Before we even saw her, we sat with the breeder and had a coffee and a chat about the whole family (even great granparents!!) and met them too. I just didn't feel that this person asked US any questions, I know if it was me I would be vetting the people that were interested in taking one of my litter home!!!

Emma.

Hi Emma

It was your spelling of Doberman(n) in the American way with one N that made me think you were in the US as well as the two years for hip x-rays.

In the UK hips can be scored anytime after 12 months. It is generally advised that bitches are not bred until after they are two years old - dogs are more difficult to give a breeding age for but I would like to see them at least 12 months so that I know their hip scores.

If you are buying a puppy the owners should be able to tell you the vWD status of the parents even if they don't know what the pup is
Clear to Clear = Clear
Clear to Carrier = Clears and Carriers
Clear to Affected = all Carriers
Carrier to Carrier = all Clear, Carrier and Affected
Carrier to Affected = Carrier and Affected
Affected to Affected = all Affected
I am currently running a dna vWD Clinic if you would like your bitch tested details here

Personally if the bitch has already had a litter at 14 months and is now having another one I would be asking a lot of questions as to why she was bred so early, was it intentional or an accident. Is the current litter from the next season which it sounds as it if could well be and if so are they in it to try to make money rather than the love of the breed.

Have the pups eyes been tested - do the breeders even know about the health problems associated with Dobermanns.

If they can't satisfactorily answer all these questions (and I can probably think of others) then don't even go and see the pups, there are plenty of well bred, planned pups around. If you end up going there and buying a pup because you feel sorry for it then they will breed again - if they get stuck with a litter of growing eating pups it may make them think twice about breeding again

If you let me know (privately, click on my name at top of message) the names of the parents I can see whether this sort of thing happens frequently amongst their immediate family, if they are registered that is

Christine