anyone watching??

just phoned hubby at home, it's on but he says it's awful and he's switchin to another side :(

I just can't watch programmes like that, they make me so sad :(

it's sickening :-(

saw it advertised, couldnt even watch that! very sad, hope the presenter changes her mind about wearing it.

I've turned it off. I can't watch it anymore, I'm crying so much...that poor skinned fox, blinking

I don't own and have never worn any genuine fur

I think I caught part of a trailer where she was saying that she'd seen worse treatment in the meat industry??

now bearing in mind I'm not near a TV and am not watching it, my main opinion is that wild animals should not be trapped and killed for their fur, I guess I'm of an open mind re mink, that is bred for it's fur, but I would hope that it would be killed humanely etc

I really DON'T want to think about dogs and cats :(

so I guess I'm pretty ignorant of what really goes on (before anyone has a go!!)

i watched a programme before and it featured dogs and cats, i managed about 30seconds before i switched over through floods of tears. the poor cats were in a large wooden crate with an open slat in it, and the person opened the lid, snared a cat around the neck then pulled the end through the open slat so the poor cat would be pulled up against the wood on the inside. it took 4-6 minutes to die, and it had been secretly filmed so it showed it all. i couldnt watch.

the other part of the programme i managed to watch featured a type of coat made out of lamb skin, but ideally from before the lamb was born, so they had all these heavily pregnant ewes, days before giving birth, and they would grab one, slit its belly, pull out the lamb, chuck the dying ewe to one side and leave it and kill the lamb. took around 30lambs to make 1 coat so 60 animals dead, they went for around $30,000. madonna reportadly had one. sickening.

oh that is sick :(

I guess I'm an ostrich in that I don't watch these programmes so I don't have to think about it :(

I can deal with fur and leather as a by-product in the food industry, but where do they justify this??

I feel really sad now, and I'm not even watchin it!!!

Just turner to +1 to see what it is about.
Dont know how long I will last once it comes on!!!
Lea

Think I may have seen that program or one similar- alot of that fur that they claim is fun fur, fake fur, actually is real fur made from dogs and cats- so cruel how they skin em alive, just makes me sick :-( When I seen that I cried just so awful- would love to skin them alive Don't wear fur in my house hold and no fake, fun fur allowed either.

When they said the film included images of animals in distress I decided I couldn't watch. I'm glad I didn't now as it sounds horrendous :-(
I wear leather shoes and have no problem with animals being bred for meat and their skins used for clothing etc. but they MUST be killed humanely and they MUST be treated with respect and kindness while they are alive. :-(

I couldn't watch :(

I watch it and they showed a mink farmer, the mink were all kept in individual wire cages and were killed by being placed in a makeshift gas chamber, although the killing of the mink appeared to be quick the conditions they lived in were in my opinion unacceptable.

There were also horrific scenes from China where foxes were clubbed to death and many were still alive when they were skinned.

Then there was the trapper that trapped beaver and bobcat using metal traps, he caught a beaver in the trap and showed that although the beavers paw was caught in the trap no bones were broken. I am guessing the beaver drowned as the trap was placed in a pool of water and when the trapper came to check on the trap ice had covered the pool. I don't call drowning a humane way for any animal to die.

I watched it and felt sick. all those people that wear fur should watch it. Yes I agree that the 'killing of the mink' was human, however not the living in cages. The poor beaver that they caught (by drowning) it took 20 mins I think for the animal to drown. Yet that was the only fur the presenter would wear.  I think she forgot about the agony of the beaver dying thru drowning. The skined alive fox's face will stay with me till the day I die, that is so sad and should be stopped. Then when they were in the fur 'warehouse' I couldnt help thinking how many animals had surrered in order to fill this place.  Awful to watch but should be watched.  I could never wear a fur.  I have a synthetic fur throw on my bed and that gives me pleasure, I dont need a dead animal on my bed.  The foxes were in U.S.A, dont they have cruelty laws?

I didnt watch the programme because all the videos theyve shown on it by the sounds were the ones I expected to be shown and to be honest seeing them all once is enough for me. I too have seen the video of the skinned alive fox blinking and the poor little mites face will stay with me forever...I cried solid for ages and had nightmares for weeks about it(I kid you not) but they wont kill the animal first as any mark on the fur renders the pelt  unusable hence the skinning alive.
Dont even get me started on what I would like to do to the people who do this to the poor animals or to the silly bitches(scuse the language) that wear it just so they think they look good. I'd skin them all alive and leave them to die piled up on top of one another, I might even chuck in some salt to the equasion for good measure just to drive my  point home how awful this practice is.

Thing is nothing will change untill enough people in society speak out about and do something  it to get it stopped. It all very well crying and turning over the tv when youve had enough and cant watch anymore, but how many of you will write letters to people like the Chinese authorities or other countries who do this and ask them to stop??????

Im not saying that no one was genuinely horrified at what they saw on that programme, I really dont think anyone in their right mind wouldnt be outraged or say that it was acceptable...just please dont forget it now its over and do something about it....even if  you do something as simple as finding out where shops that sell real fur are and writing to the owners to ask them politely to stop selling it and refuse to buy anything from them till they do.

Most people wont be bothered ,but if everyone did it and stuck to it...loss of income will have a knock on effect down the line and  might make these people who do this, fashion designers and the idiots who buy real fur to wear think twice about allowing this abhorrent practice to continue.

Sorry for ranting but this issue is something  that really rattles me and gets my blood boiling but  I cannot appologise for my beliefs

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STILL FEEL STRONG ENOUGH ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW ON LAST NIGHT PROGRAMME TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING ,NO MATTER HOW SMALL,IF ENOUGH OF YOU DO,YOU COULD SAVE AN ANIMALS LIFE.

Thanks for hearing me out and im sorry if I appear to be preaching I just want to try to spur people into action while the programme is still fresh in your minds.

well said

I don't wear fur, never have never will although I do wear leather shoes. I didn't watch the programme as I knew it would upset me and I knew I would be haunted by the images and it sounds by the other posts that i wasn't wrong!!! :-(

I admit to being a bit naive and never really knew the suffering that these poor animals endured for the sake of someone's idea of fashion. To hear that they skinned an animal alive or allowed an animal to drown is beyond belief. :-( :-(

I don't see the difference in wearing fur, wearing leather or eating meat.  We don't need to do any of it.

But I do think that if man chooses to use animals for whatever purpose, then they should treat them with respect while they are here and dispatch them as quickly and humanely as possible when their time comes.  Unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

i was going to watch it but forgot it was on as i went to bounemouth yesterday but i am gald i didnt after reading this thead!

i could not watch it,

>But I do think that if man chooses to use animals for whatever purpose, then they should treat them with respect while they are here and dispatch them as quickly and humanely as possible when their time comes<

I totally agree with this statement, I know I may see things in 'black & white' at times, but in my mind, wearing fur is no better or worse than buying cheap imported meat - it is likely than in both cases the animals will not have been treated in the most humane way.

I don't wear fur at all, and very rarely wear leather, never mind buy it - the budget doesn't stretch that far! I also try to eat locally or approved farm produced meat where possible, so the history and treatment of the animal is much more likely to be humane. Meat at local butchers can also be surprisingly good value compared to the large supermarkets too.

Claire

>But I do think that if man chooses to use animals for whatever purpose, then they should treat them with respect while they are here and dispatch them as quickly and humanely as possible when their time comes<
>I totally agree with this statement, I know I may see things in 'black & white' at times, but in my mind, wearing fur is no better or worse than buying cheap imported meat - it is likely than in both cases the animals will not have been treated in the most humane way.<

Ditto. In fact the meat needn't even be imported - some of our own practices with livestock leave a lot to be desired.

The foxes in china were the worst.  You only saw a few seconds of each bit but that was enough.  I have sky + and had to rewind to make sure my mind was playing tricks on me.  They weren't!!  The image that has stuck in my head is one fox that had obviously just been skinned alive but it was sat there with just a tiny bit of fur round it eyes and in shock.  I couldnt believe my eyes, at this point I admit I was crying and feeling sick.  Why cant they find a way to at least kill them first.
Pointless fashion to be thrown into the back of a wardrobe after being worn a couple of times, whats the point.

Emma

This isnt singling anyone out on this thread,but as most of you have expressed horror at the things you witnessed on the programme....Please read my earlier post and do something to stop it :)

they skinned a fox whilst it was alive??????????????????????????????????????

((((shakes head and leaves thread leaving original opinion about China intact))))

I didn't see it but checked last night and it can be downloaded from C4.  I'm going to watch it later.

> but I would hope that it would be killed humanely etc

as i understand it its usually anal electrocution as it doesn;t damage the fur, sometimes takes a few goes as well, so i read

i don;t see the point in wearing fur and putting an animal through that, you can get tremendous fake fur now so whats the need? i have a massive silver fur coat, i call it Boris lol, totally fake, looks real though

> This isnt singling anyone out on this thread,but as most of you have expressed horror at the things you witnessed on the programme....Please read my earlier post and do something to stop it :-)

what do you recommend?  I have just watched it and was horrified.  I have never knowingly bought real fur but have heard many tales of real fur being passed of as fake so who knows.  I would like to take action but no idea what would be useful.

well im going to put a different point forward. As there was no "traditional" or "spiritual" reason given on the programme for skinning the fox alive....and lets face it the Chinese just love to kill/prepare/eat various things because it makes them bigger, stronger or more virile or whatever......then is it possible that this was staged by the antis to create mass reaction? I have skinned a large number of animals over the years from rabbits up to red deer, and common sense tells me that you are far more likely to get bitten if something is alive! Also when you are skinning for the tanning market then the most important factor is keeping the pelt intact and perfect and if you have an animal struggling or trying to bite you or escape then you have slim chance of getting the pelt off without a nick somewhere....so...to me it just doesnt add up!!

> what do you recommend? I have just watched it and was horrified. I have never knowingly bought real fur but have heard many tales of real fur being passed of as fake so who knows. I would like to take action but no idea what would be useful.

Thanks for being moved enough to do something .

PLEASE send an E-mail to the following addresses, in a polite, yet effective manner, asking them to stop this intolerable cruelty.

defence_chn@yahoo.co.uk

maritime@chinese-embassy.org.uk

press@chinese-embassy.org.uk

visa@chinese-embassy.org.uk

You could also refuse to buy anything from shops known to sell real fur and write to the manager asking them to take the fur from the shelves.I can pm you a list of organisations that can give you a list of these shops if you would like me to, just pm me and let me know

Hope this has been a helpfull start to you.
Philly xx

> Also when you are skinning for the tanning market then the most important factor is keeping the pelt intact and perfect and if you have an animal struggling or trying to bite you or escape then you have slim chance of getting the pelt off without a nick somewhere....so...to me it just doesnt add up!!

I could show you a million videos of undercover investigators collecting evidense to use to help  prosecute these people who do this.....the animals are most definately alive when they are skinned ...their feet are usually strung up sometimes on meat hooks while they are litterally skinned from the legs down.As it is pulled off  towards the head of the animal, the pelt turns inside out covering the animals head as it comes away ,this stops the person doing the skinning from being bitten.

By this time the animal is too shocked to retaliate and is just chucked on a pile of other skinned animals to die.

So now you know its not set up

Sorry again for being graphic but this subject is something that really gets my back up and if I can get even just one person moved enough as i was to do something then I am not going to tone it down, I tell it as it is.

> .....the animals are most definately alive when they are skinned

why?

> .....the animals are most definately alive when they are skinned

why?

Thats what gets me, Why do they do that when the mink farmers showed the perfect way, a sealed trailor on the back of a tractor with the exhaust going into the trailor and the mink dying within 30 seconds!!! No struggle, no look of panic on their faces, just fell asleep. The same as our dogs being PTS> Now if all animals went in that way I would have no problem with the fur trade, especially as the remainder is sent for bonemeal so all is used.
Also the Beaver drowned. Ok sounds horrible, But isnt it said, that drowning is the most peaceful way to go????( I dont know who has decided that LOL) But it had a good life, needed to be culled (I cant remeber the reasons But am sure they said they were over running)
But skinning alive I could not cope with and wish there was a way to stop that barbaric practice.
Lea :)

a million??? really???

> Thats what gets me, Why do they do that when the mink farmers showed the perfect way, a sealed trailor on the back of a tractor with the exhaust going into the trailor and the mink dying within 30 seconds!!! No struggle, no look of panic on their faces, just fell asleep. The same as our dogs being PTS

I dont understand that either Lea, my assumption is perhaps the cost of the injections to euthanise them It would cost the industry money to do it properly and therefore less profit will be made.I dont thinki the people who do this barbarc thing to the animal care how its done as long as the pelt is not marked...thats the most important thing to them.

Some places, not nesesarily in china do stun the animals with an electric rod,but its done so quickly on a production line that the rod sometimes doesnt hit the right spot to render the animal totally unconcious and it wakes up anyway while its being killed.

To answer Sam ..........

> a million??? really???

Ok if you want to be specific ;),maybe not a million, but lots and lots,it was just a figure of speach, either way one animal skinned alive or a million ,its still horrific,cruel  and totally wrong and should be stopped.

If its not too rude ,may I ask in what capacity were you skinning these rabbits etc....I am assuming as this is a dog forum that you work your dogs perhaps for example on a shoot.If this is the case, the animal would be dead when you killed it and the pelt wouldnt be going to "the fashion industry" therefore it wouldnt matter if it had gunshot or whatever in it. This is not a critisim of you nor am I having a go  ,im just interested to know why you come across as thinking animals being skinned alives is a set up "by antis to create a mass reaction"?
the horrific screams of the animal cannot be set up can they? the blood is real and the animal raising its poor head and blinking afterwards cannot be staged either.
I dont want to debate wether its staged or not,my reason for joining this discussion was to try to get people to voice their opinion where it matters,to the authourities in the countries that do this and to the shops in this counrtry who still sell fur......for example I wont name it on here but theres a rather famous store in London ;) , and get it stopped.

We used to have fur farms in the UK but unfortunately the Animal Liberation people put paid to that.  If we still had it would have provided a regulated alternative to furs from countries where welfare is not a consideration.

This is the coalition to abolish the fur trade they have info on how tell the difference between real fur & fake fur, there is also a list of shops' policies on fur, they also have a link the the show 'kill it, skin it, wear it'. It is definately worth having a look at the sight - a real eyeopener.

Some more info on fur farms.

I think the reason these animals are not stunned/killed properly before having thier skin torn of is because the people that do it have no compassion, no heart and they get-off on overpowering these poor animals. It can't be for speed, in 1 video I've just wathced, it would have been easier & much quicker for the person if they had killed the fox preperly in the first place as they kept having to stop to try to stun it again - it was almost as if the man enjoyed dominating the fox, he gave up trying to stun it by hitting it on the nose with a nife and stood on it's neck, waiting for it to suffocate :( :(

Hi Isabel....just so you know I am not part of any Animal Liberation Group

As for still having Fur Farms in the UK,maybe we would have regulations etc but I doubt very much that places like China would take any notice and would still carry on with these horrific practeses anyway regardless of what other countries do. There are alternatives to real fur, personally there is no need for anyone to wear real fur  except for peoples vanity (apart from maybe  Eskimos who eat the animal it came from and they use the fur to keep warm as clothing. Food first etc etc....)
Besides it looks much prettier on the animal imo.

philly, i skin shot rabbits and shot deer on a regular basis....they are they by-product of culling and their pelts are used for many purposes including training dummies, fly fishing and yes....clothing! I have also skinned calves that were a by product (being fed to hounds) and the skins are taken for the leather industry.....so i do have a lot of experience of skinning and keeping pelts in usable condition.
I think you misunderstood me about the set up....i was suggesting that the whole thing was done and filmed by the antis to create an out cry...not that it was "mocked up" and didnt really happen. I can see that it was real and dont doubt it happened...I am just asking the question if that  was done by the antis or by the people it suggests were doing it.

Exactly Isobel....they are the stupid idiots who released thousands of captive mink into our countryside which have decimated large areas of rivers killing everything in their wake. This is something i have a lot of experience of and am currently involved in a mink trapping campaign on our stretch of river and ponds......10 so far this year!!! We have done it a few years ago on mums bit of river and trapped over 20 in 18 months and are glad to say our otters bred this year for 1st time :) and finally we have ducks and coots back on the ponds as until now the mink have killed every one that tries to live there. These antis have a lot to answer for!!!

There is no need to eat meat but we enjoy it so I can't see why the same ethics cannot be applied to fur. 

> There is no need to eat meat but we enjoy it so I can't see why the same ethics cannot be applied to fur.

Just imagine going to a breeder, who breeds dogs for the fur trade - we could all choose which puppies we want raising to make our own coats :( :( :( :(

OMG!!! :-( :-(

I have just watched about a minute of the clip and I feel so ill that it has made me sick!!!

I am going to talk to everyone I know about the cruelty I have just seen and hope that I can put even one person off wearing fur. Those poor poor animals, I never realised this sort of thing really happened and in such a cruel way. I must make changes within my own home too, i.e not wearing leather and our diet etc (although the meat we get here is mainly local anyway).

> Just imagine going to a breeder, who breeds dogs for the fur trade - we could all choose which puppies we want raising to make our own coats

Why would I want to imagine that! As far as I am aware the fur farming in the UK never included dogs.

Fur farming in the UK may never have legally included dogs, but dog & cat fur is still very much a part of the fur trade. If the principal that it's OK to farm animals for meat is applied to the fur trade there wouldn't be any distinction between an animal we view as a pet and an animal others view for it's fur.

> If the principal that it's OK to farm animals for meat is applied to the fur trade there wouldn't be any distinction between an animal we view as a pet and an animal others view for it's fur.

Ethically that would be true of course but I doubt very much it would ever be tolerated in the UK and again this is why fur farming would be better conducted in countries where regulations would be in force to prevent the masquarading of one type of fur for another.

> I am just asking the question if that was done by the antis or by the people it suggests were doing it.

There is no way it would be done by the "antis" as you call them...it is done by the people that the programme showed you doing it.this is the way they farm fur in China full stop.

Never ever doubt it doesnt happen because it does.....I dont have a problem with leather being worn as a by product of meat being killed to eat as long as the animal is killed humanely.
I am a veggie and the thought of eating meat repulses me but I wouldnt expect other people not to eat meat ,its up to them,animals in the wild kill other animals for food, thats nature and animals think in a primative way as did early man,
We are far more advanced in our thinking now so there should be no excuse not to kill the animal humanely should you choose to eat it and if the pelt from said animal is sent to be made into furniture,clothes ,whatever at least the animal hasnt solely been killed for its pelt in a barbaric way...if you get what im trying to say.
We do not eat fox,mink etc so why should they be killed horrifically just so we can look good?

Rabbits or dear  that are already dead,killed humanely for culling puposes, I suppose I can live with  as it does keep numbers manageable, although I would, in an ideal world, prefer them to die a natural death.
Furs that come from Fox hunting or from any animal killed for "sport" I have a big problem with asthe animal is not humanely killed for food but more so for  peoples enjoyment of that sport   ...sorry but thats just me and my opinion and I feel so strongly about my opinions I could go on but I will stop now because I dont want to be dragged into an arguement with people who obviously are trying to push my buttons  and do not agree with me.. but I will say people who believe in  Animal Rights are not nesessarily the same "stupid Idiots who go round releasing mink into the wild " etc etc as People have so politely labelled them on this thread.

I never wanted my original post on this thread to be turned into a debate, nor did I intend to cause friction I just wanted the people who expressed their horror at what they saw on that programme to just not be horrified for an hour or so after or maybe weeks after  ,whatever and then just be aparthetic and forget about it,I wanted them to use that horror they felt so strongly  to do something about it ,then maybe if enough people did something, maybe it would be stopped ...thats all

> I never wanted my original post on this thread to be turned into a debate, nor did I intend to cause friction

I don't think you have caused any friction and there is nothing wrong with a debate :)

> I don't think you have caused any friction and there is nothing wrong with a debate :-)

Yeah I know, Im all for people expressing how they feel its just im not that great at getting my point over if i feel im upsetting people and when I read what ive said back sometimes I dont think i always get it to sound how I mean lol if you see what i mean and I never would intentionally set out to argue with anyone and its hard to get the tone of something right if your just typing it and not saying it to a persons face..
I also think if I cant explain exactly what im trying to say people may think im Bs ing or im contradicting myself or something .
lol...guess i should just chill and  go with the flow a bit more and not get frustrated as much when i have a point to make :)

Watching the programme last night made me think of a story that has recently appeared in the local media in my area.  A family pet rabbit was stolen from outdooor hutch and skinned overnight.  The pelt was then returned minus the poor rabbit.  I would hate to think of the person who did this to the poor rabbit.  the link is below to the story.  It makes you wonder if awareness raising programme like this one bring out the psychos.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2008/08/12/newsstory11790849t0.asp

How is there 'no way' that the fox skinned alive video (which i have seen) was set up by antis.. how? You have proof it wasnt?

Like sam, i have some experience (though from a different angle, i work with leather and sometimes fur)..

Look at it from a common sense point of view - ok, you might be able to skin one animal alive without getting bitten or damaging the pelt. But if thats your job, your livelihood depends on you not being bitten by an animal that could likely carry rabies, and on getting those pelts off undamaged...

Why risk it by doing it when the animal is still alive? Thats a big risk to take.

Especially when you can kill the animal by knocking it on the head, breaking its neck, gassing it, electrocuting it... none of which does any harm to the pelt (except possibly the head area but the fur from there is of little value anyway).

Pulling the skin off an animal to keep the pelt whole requires skill and an immobile animal - doing it alive risks ripping the pelt, or cutting into the body and releasing urine, faeces, bile... etc all over the pelt which in some cases will ruin it.

Animal rights folk HAVE 'faked' or set up a lot of videos in the past, how do you know that this video doesnt show the ONE out of hundreds filmed, case where the animal was accidentally, not properly killed?

I am not saying i support fur farming, i dont i thnk the conditions in which animals are kept is awful (and as such i only use fur that has come as a by product of shooting or the meat industry myself)..

But.. i refuse to blindly believe all that the likes of PETA try to shove down my throat - they are as corrupt as anything!