I went to pick up my new puppy yesterday. As it turned out I was supposed to get a pup that was 17wks old but that fell through. I ended up with a pup at 9wks old, which is fine, but I got last pup in litter. ( The runt I think). He is a cavalier spaniel but he is completly white. I dont have a problem with this as he is gorgeous anyway, and just want him as a pet. My concern is that since we brought him home he doesnt seem to hear noise. When he has touched something he shouldnt we have stood behind him and clapped and said no no, but he doesnt turn at the clapping noise. Both my partner and I have stood at either side of him and clapped and he doesnt look where noise is coming from. Also made a lot of noise around his bed this morning and he didnt stir, it was only when we eventually touched him that he woke up but the noise didnt stir him at all. Should I be concerned or is it normal for a nine week old to ignore noise. If he is deaf I wouldnt want to get rid of him as my motto is A dog is for life, but would I have any comeback with the breeder. He is such a cutie and has melted our hearts already.
Thanks in Advance
Donna x

A completely white Cavalier ??????? See his mother ?

I'm not surprised mind you as some people keep breeding mainly white bitches to mainly white dogs to produce flashy puppies Totally wrong, all 5 of the Blenheim Cavaliers we have had have been what is termed "heavily"marked & they all had very good pigment, the more white on the dogs the worse the pigmentation.

Did have you taken the puppy to the vet yet ? I would certainly have a vet look at him & consider a BAER test. If the puppy is deaf I suspect the breeder knew, my friend who used to breed Great Danes certainly knew if there was a deaf puppy in one of her litters(not that there were many)& she would always tell the new owners & ensure the puppy was homed where there was another dog. She didn't charge the full amount either.

Were the parents both fully health tested ? Heart, eye etc etc ? Was the breeder a show person ?

BTW Cavaliers should really be 12 weeks old when they leave home not 9

> BTW Cavaliers should really be 12 weeks old when they leave home not 9

Is that from the breed club?

It is the normal practice of responsible breeders, although they are probably the stronest of the toy breeds they are still a small breed & I would not expect to get a puppy under 12 weeks of age. It does mean they can be titre tested, vax & fully health tested before they leave home

I agree they can be very small but I am sure on the breed club they say 9 weeks (its a while since I have been on there) and even the woman that runs one of the rescues says 9 weeks also. I agree with you that it is better to get them a little older as both mine I bought home at 13 weeks :-)

Cavalier puppies are generally really inquisitive and hear the slightest sound especially if there is a food packet involved so its possible that you have a pup that cannot hear or not very well.  The fact that your pup is all white would also be a warning sign as well to be honest.  Generally a responsible breeder would want to breed dogs that were recognisable as Cavvies.  My Rosie became 'hard of hearing' (she wasnt completely deaf) as she got older and she used to do a lot of things by hand signals and didnt bark. Certainly if you clap your pup should turn round and investigate straight away. When I got another Cavvie who could hear a pin drop the difference was amazing.  I would make sure that you get your puppy checked out by the vet asap especially if you think you may have the runt of the litter, because as I expect you might know about the heart problems that Cavvies can get, there may be other problems as well if your pup is not as strong in other ways.

Ahhh, bless him.
I have no idea weather his lack of response is down to being deaf or not or weather you have any come-back with the breeder, but I'd just like to say good on you for wanting to keep him if it turns out he is deaf :)

Our rescue dog lost his hearing about 3 years ago (due to age) & we had to re-train with hand signals and found that the dog was much more responsive to that method (compared to when he could hear verbal commands). Seeing how effective the hand-signals were I have trained our new pup (now 12 months old) with hand signals & verbal commands, he picks up the hand-signals so much better than verbal signals and is much quicker at responding to the hand-signals (as opposed to a verbal command) :) I suppose it's to do with the fact that a dogs use body-language  more to communicate rather than verbal? He still barks, but not as much because he can't hear all the things he used to bark at.

The biggest problem with a deaf dog is 'remote-control', ie, if they are chasing a cat down the garden shouting out 'no' is pointless, also re-call can only be effective if they are looking at you & they are smart enough to think if they don't look at you they don't have to behave!!! (I never let him off-lead when out, due to re-call since hes gone deaf, far to risky).

It may be that your pup is a bit shell-socked with the ordeal of being taken away from mum and he feels safer ignoring loud noises???? Does he react to wimpering noises (ie, imitate the sound of a crying puppy)?

>good on you for wanting to keep him if it turns out he is deaf

I can see the animal loving element of this, but this is not a rescue dog. This is (I assume) a pedigree puppy that the OP has paid a substantial amount of money for, and the breeder is either not competent to recognise the issue or too heartless to mention it, banking on the fact that a dog lover will not want to return the puppy by the time they realise.

I'm afraid that as long as this remains easy and lucrative for breeders, then it's the same as buying a dog from a puppy farm to 'save it' - it just ensures that there will be more litters that follow.

M.

His mum was a blenheim and dad was tricolour. They seemed fine. They are not KC reg. Havent had puppy at vet yet, I am taking him this week when I can get an appointment.
Donna x

I agree with Lily Mc. As hard as it may seem I would take this puppy straight back and ask the breeder to have him tested.
I have just read this now

>They are not KC reg.

so I have edited to say I would just take the puppy back.  This really illustrates why irresponsible and unethical breeders should not be supported as it is the puppy buyer that suffers.  If the puppy was not registered where the parents health tested in any way?  Heart etc?

No he doesnt respond to crying puppy noises, and also we have a very noisy squaky parrot and he doesnt even look at it when it is making noise.
Donna X

> I can see the animal loving element of this, but this is not a rescue dog. This is (I assume) a pedigree puppy that the OP has paid a substantial amount of money for, and the breeder is either not competent to recognise the issue or too heartless to mention it, banking on the fact that a dog lover will not want to return the puppy by the time they realise.

As dogs are classed as goods, then I see no reason why the breeder can not return part of the payment as the 'goods' are 'faulty', without the OP having to return the puppy. Taking this puppy back to the breeder will not stop another litter being bred - this pup was the last of a litter.
If this puppy was 100% healthy then nobody would be saying to return it, so I don't see why the poor little might should suffer being pushed from pillar to post, the OP wants to keep it, fair play.

I hope that all dog-owners are animal lovers.

This is my fault as I went and got a puppy on a whim without asking the proper questions as we have all been so upset at our other dog passing. I knew the pups werent kc reg but I just thought it didnt matter as I just want a pet to love and give a good home to. I did pay quite a bit for him though £400. I really dont want to part with him now and I would worry what would happen to him if I did take him back. Who would want him. I know I shouldnt let sentiment get in the way but my heart goes out to him, and he has been a great wee guy since we brought him home.

You are probably right taking one puppy back won't make this breeder think twice but if you don't apply the principle of not accepting puppies from unethical breeders things will certainly never change.  I don't think that is failing to love animals but the complete opposite.

>Taking this puppy back to the breeder will not stop another litter being bred - this pup was the last of a litter.

Or maybe all the pups in the litter were the same, and all the new owners have fallen for the same spiel?

M.

the only way to be sure to see if he is deaf is to have him BAER  (Brainstem Auditory-Evoked Response) tested this would tell you if he is deafness in both ears (bilateral) or in one ear (unilateral).

The trouble is, with this breed, you may not be just facing the deafnessto deal with, which will be difficult enough, but possibly a dog on expensive heart drugs for many years, possibly never able to enjoy exercising with the rest of the family and possibly being lost at a very young age. 

> You are probably right taking one puppy back won't make this breeder think twice but if you don't apply the principle of not accepting puppies from unethical breeders things will certainly never change.  I don't think that is failing to love animals but the complete opposite.

I agree in not supporting bad breeders/puppy farmers, but the OP has allready got the pup and wants to keep him, it's far better that pups are not bought from these people in the first place.
The OP has been grieving over the loss of a much loved dog and jumped into to getting a puppy without checking out all the details. I know that I could never return a puppy which is why I spent 18 months looking for a breeder in the first place.
In the big scheme of things returning this puppy will benefit no-body - the OP wants to keep him so it wont benefit her, the puppy needs stability so it wont benefit him & the breeder will sell him on anyway so it wont affect them. The best thing is for the OP is to take this as a lesson learnt and hopefully others can learn from this too.

I disagree, the OP is in danger of even more grief and taking the puppy back will impact on the breeder in the same way as no purchase in the first place.  

I agree with Isabel -and the OP needs to consider if they can AFFORD to keep the puppy. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me their cavaliers died aged 5 or 6 (youngest I've heard of dying from MVD was just one!!) and heart medication for life isn't cheap. There isn't a small risk of this pup developing MVD as an adult, it's a huge risk and more or less a certainty. Then there is the question of Syringomyelia -what happens if the pup develops that? It could end up being an extremely expensive pup all told, and this has to be considered. A Cavalier from unregistered parents is a time bomb just waiting to go off. Fair enough when it's a rescue, then you accept that you don't know what is what, but when paying for a pup........

If everyone who bought a Cavalier asked the vital questions about health, the irresponsible people would not be able to sell their pups and would have to stop breeding. The questions are: 1. If both parents are at least 2 ½ years old and have current clear heart certificates. 2. If all four grandparents are at least 5 years old and have current clear heart certificates. 3. If both parents have current clear eye certificates. 4. If both parents have been MRI scanned.

I've never heard this breed being all white before.  I'd be taking the pup straight back myself.

To be honest I would take the pup back. I had a dog diagnosed with a heart problem as an older pup and was too attached to him by then to return him. So if you can do it now I think I would.

The breeder I got my boy from was marvellous offered refund and another pup and had all her dogs checked at once. All were clear and it was a developing problem in the breed so she couldn't have known in advance

I see you're in Scotland, so your best bet for BAER is to contact:
THE SMALL ANIMAL HOSPITAL:
Bearsden Road, Bearsden, Glasgow, G61 1QH
Telephone: 0141 3305848
This is a department of Glasgow University and a Dr Anderson is in charge.

A deaf dog naturally needs different training methods to hearing dogs so it's as well to get him tested as soon as you can. Personally I'd return him, but if you decide against that get his breeder to face up to his/her responsibility and have the pup tested at their own expense. Don't worry, the test is painless.

I know that you dont want to return your puppy, however even as a complete dog lover to the end of my days, I would.  Im sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but I think that this pup is going to cause you an awful lot of heartbreak and if you are already worried, then Id act on that while you can. There are a few things that are worrying me, one is its colour, sometimes all white dogs and cats can be 100% deaf, Cavvies dont normally throw all white pups, you generally find at the very least a couple of patches of colour.  With any breeding programme even if you continually breed the least marked to the least marked, it would take a long time to get a white one it doesnt sound like this has happened.  You have got your pup without a lot of research into its background and as it isnt KC registered you could have all sorts in the mix, as cavvies from any sort of decent background at least have the right colouring especially if you didnt see any of the other pups or even the parents.  You have also got an untested temperement as well, you may not end up with the soft as butter, laid back, affectionate dog you think you have bought. As for the £££ you paid, Im shocked. As someone who took a very long time to find the right breeders of my Cavvies (and Ive had three) my bridge dog Rosie got to the age of 10 before she developed MVD which is a devastating problem in the breed and I consider myself very lucky.  Her parents and grandparents were all long lived and heart and eye tested clear. HOWEVER, my Rosie went downhill extremely quickly when she developed MVD and from developing a heart murmur to dying from heart failure took just over three months.  To see your beloved companion effectively drown in their own lungs and looking at you pleading with you to help them, even though they were on the maximum amount of drugs they could have - will stay with me until the day I die too.  If it wasnt for the PDSA in my time of need, to help pay for her meds, it would have cost me over £150 per month. I would never buy a Cavvie unless they were from heart tested backgrounds, I wouldnt want anyone to go through what I did.  Please dont put yourself through that knowingly.

Long after this breeder (if you can call them that) has packed up and decided that her dogs are not for breeding anymore and maybe not really worring about or being interested in the pups that they have bred, you will still have your dog, and having a dog is all about running about with them/training/affection/companionship/and building that bond with them.  You may not be able to have that with your pup, when you so easily could have a happy HEALTHY long lived KC registered pup that is true to type in every way.  I also paid less than what you did for purebred tested KC as well.

Donna I don't know much about the potential health problems of cavaliers but I think you should tell the breeder your concerns about the puppy and that you are taking him for a thorough check up with your own vet. I would hope that a reputable breeder would offer to pay for this if there are significant worries, as in your puppy's case.
When you have the vet's opinion then you will be better placed to make a decision on what 's best for you, your family and the puppy.
I am really feeling for you as this is a heartbreaking situation, made all the harder because you are still mourning for your other much-loved dog.  As my Dad often says to me 'sometimes you have to let your head rule and not your heart'
We're all thinking of you. Let us know what happens. x

As the parents are not KC registered I hate to tell you this but I think you have been "sold a pup" Did you see the mother & did she look as if she had young puppies ? Many puppy traders have a female of the breed you are buying available to be seen an "Mum"when in fact the puppies have been bought in bulk from a puppy farmer !

When you have the vet's opinion then you will be better placed to make a decision on what 's best for you, your family and the puppy.

Unfortunately with Cavaliers, the ONLY way to get something of an idea of future health is to know the health status of both parents AND grandparents. All a vet can say is the pup is healthy today -it may not be healthy in 2-3 years time. All Cavalier pups are clear of MVD, it doesn't affect puppies. But 50 % of all Cavaliers have developed MVD by the age of just 5.

I quite agree Marianne I now have two cavaliers with good normal hearts both over the age of 7(one's 8 in September)however they both have SM(Syringomyelia)& both are from KC reg heart tested parents & Grandparents & G G parents, however none were MRI scanned for SM & one's father was PTS before he was 3 with SM(after our boy had been born)

im sorry BUT, first i must say i am not a breeder im just a animal lover especially dogs, i know there is lots of health  issues that you have to look into when deciding to have a puppy and of course i would never criticise anyone out there especially all your qualified breeders who deserve lots of admiration for your hard work and comitment that you put into your career, right now my opion, how many people out there when deciding to have a puppy actually look into the heath, parents, and history of the dog, im not saying that its wrong not to but im sure its the minority of people, when i had our pup all she needed was a loving home and be taken care of and thats exactly what shes got, i did not ask about her history or health and yes she has had a few minor problems that we was lucky enough to have treated, we all now problems can occur with our pets BUT also how about our health and our childrens/parents health, would we wipe our hands of those if things just didnt look/feel right? maybe some of you dont understand what im saying but i just wanted to have a say,

But humans do get very good health care particularly antenatal care when all manner of advise and screening is given, routinely, without any need for people to research and seek it out for themselves.   Perhaps people just take this for granted but it is not as routine with animals and you do have to go to some effort to find out just what you should be looking for and to check that what should have been done has been done otherwise you are in danger of some very expensive and heartbreaking events, again something that you would be supported through in the human world of health and social support.

I can sort of see your point, Tess, however Cavaliers are a breed with known and serious health problems.  I have seen the kind of heartbreak and distress (which is more painful than the not inconsiderable expense) that having a poorly Cav can cause its owners.  It's not a breed for me as I like a slightly bigger dog, but if it were I would be very careful about who I bought from and the kinds of checks that I would want to see.

> right now my opion, how many people out there when deciding to have a puppy actually look into the heath, parents, and history of the dog, im not saying that its wrong not to but im sure its the minority of people, when i had our pup all she needed was a loving home and be taken care of and thats exactly what shes got, i did not ask about her history or health and yes she has had a few minor problems that we was lucky enough to have treated,

Well if they follow the guidance of good vets, breed clubs & dare I say the KC,they should look at the breed in depth before starting to seek a puppy & I certainly did from my first dog(a GSD from top kennels in Ireland from German parents)even in a time that looks were everything in the breed I opted to look further-not bad for an 8 year old GSD mad kid eh ?

> If he is deaf I wouldnt want to get rid of him as my motto is A dog is for life, but would I have any comeback with the breeder. He is such a cutie and has melted our hearts already.

i don't know who whould be able to help regarding comeback with the breeder? Trading standards must be worth a try - as I said before, dogs are classed as goods & you've paid 'full price' for 'faulty goods'.
Also, I don't know if you saw any advert that led you to your new pup, maybe an advert syaing"puppy for sale, vet checked, ready to go" (or somthing similar), if so then they are also in danger of wrongfull advertising (pup caouldn't have been vet checked, if so then hearing would've been mentioned). Definately try trading standards and also the RSPCA, you never know if they are compiling a case against this breeder allready and waiting for more info, they also may be able to point you in the right direction of a trainer/club for deaf pups to help with training and give you some support.

But, you need to get pup to the vet to be checked out and get the BEAR test first. Also make sure that you have some good insurance in place then you know you can any afford future vet bills.

I have 2 Cavaliers and I am forced to agree it would be best to return him if you can - even registered Cavaliers bought from breeders who health test can get heart problems or SM, and an unregistered untested puppy is an expensive disaster waiting to happen. But he sounds stunning, my friend had a nearly pure white one born in a litter once (not deaf as far as I know) and the photo of him I saw once was gorgeous. It's quite likely he is deaf from what you say, but you can train just as well using hand signals, in fact dogs respond better to hand signals and body language than they do words. If it's too late to take him back and he's already taken over your household and your hearts, just make sure you get good insurance with unlimited payouts for ongoing conditions BEFORE he develops anything.

> when i had our pup all she needed was a loving home and be taken care of and thats exactly what shes got, i did not ask about her history or health and yes she has had a few minor problems that we was lucky enough to have treated

yes but buying from these sources is tantamount to declaring that they are ok. give them the money and you are funding the likely future abuse of many dogs and bitches and the production of puppies who may have a miserable life of pain with things that can be prevented

> BUT also how about our health and our childrens/parents health, would we wipe our hands of those if things just didnt look/feel right?

of course people would not abandon someone for being ill BUT many peope terminate pregnancies because they do not think its right to put a child who will be ill through pain (rightly or wrongly), many people believe in euthenasia to free people from the pain or decline their bodies can go through and many people deem to act as sensible breeders do and refrain from breeding themselves so as not to produce kids with inherent physical problems- i certainly am not planning on having kids due to my partner and i's health probs, what a think to wish on a child (just my view, not critisising anyone else who would)

in the end we make a concious decision to bring these animals into the world we should do our utmost to make their lives from begining to end as healthy and secure as possible.

when i had our pup all she needed was a loving home and be taken care of and thats exactly what shes got, i did not ask about her history or health and yes she has had a few minor problems that we was lucky enough to have treated, we all now problems can occur with our pets BUT also how about our health and our childrens/parents health, would we wipe our hands of those if things just didnt look/feel right?

Is your pup a Cavalier? If not, you can't quite understand the situation. 50 % of all cavaliers have a heart murmur by age 5, and 99 % by age 10. That's not like other breeds. You are far less likely to get lucky with a cavalier from a back yard breeder who as done no health testing, than with any other breed. Yes you'll love your dogs but can you afford to pay all the vet fees and medication? Daily medication for life. Can you cope with losing the dog aged just 5? If the answer is no or unsure, then with a cavalier you cannot go out and buy an unknown quantity. When WE get sick, our our children, we don't end up paying for doctors -that's the huge difference.

How is your little pup weim1  ?

He is doing well thanks. The vet confirmed he is deaf. Managed to get a hold of the woman I got him from, she said she would probably have him put to sleep which I couldnt bear. She agreed to give me half my money back and maybe foolishly I said I would keep him. I know this may end up being very expensive for me but I didnt want the wee fellow put to sleep just because hes deaf. Anyway he is a lovely wee thing and is settling really well with my other dog. We called him roody and is a real character. Spoiled already as you can imagine. Thanks to all for advice. I must be mad but he will be well loved by us and we will give him best life possible.
Donna x

Hi Donna
Glad he's doing well and good on you for keeping him - you at least have some idea what problems ( emotional, physical and even financial ) you may face, so haven't gone into this all together blindly. I hope you have many years enjoyment with him, he is lucky to have found you :)

why half?? she sold you, effectively, faulty goods. granted a full refund might have ment returning the puppy but if you made a deal with her i'd have expected more than half- just think of the vet bills you'll have. she'd still have been better off if she gave you a full refund as if you returned the pup you;d be entitiled to one and then she's also have had to pay for the PTS.

i think that you really need to have it out with this person- clearly they are unrestrainedly producing unhealthy puppies in a breed with enough problems already and not even informing the buyers

Hi Donna

Your heart has told you that keeping this pup is the right thing to do. Not everyone believes in destiny but maybe he was sent to help with the healing of your heart after your tragic loss.  He may not be perfect but that will not stop him from being the perfect pet for you.

Aah i am sorry to hear your pup is deaf, good on you for keeping him and best of luck.

Hayley x

Sorry to hear he is deaf, at least you got half the money back. I have no personal experience but have seen many posts on various forums saying how well deaf dogs respond to hand signals, a lot of them can apparently hear those high pitched dog whistles humans can't hear so can even learn recalls etc. Do make sure he is insured with an unlimited vet bills policy in case he needs heart tablets or any other long term surgery. I'd love to see a photo of him, I never did get my friend with the white Cav to send me one, I bet he looks stunning!

At least your boy is now safe with you, I would insure him asap BTW just in case.

You can use a small torch like a clicker to train him, there is a lady who has Border Collies, who has a deaf bitch & when the bitch was younger she was working the higher classes in Obedience & Lesley has helped lots of people with deaf dogs, PM me if you want her e mail to contact her

I'm sorry to hear your boy is deaf. We've had some great deaf dogs at the training club and one won top dog of the year so it's not all doom and gloom. I saw an article in one of the dog mags where they were using a vibrating collar for recall. I'd want to feel how strong the vibrations were but it was a cue to look around and see what to do next. Like the single blast used in whistle training gundogs.

The torch idea seems great, I didnt think of that. I did speak to someone at our local training classes and they mentioned a vibrating collar, I am looking into his insurance as well.
All being well with his health, it is not as daunting as I initially thought. My biggest worry was the training. He is such a laid back wee fellow and has settled in so well already.
Donna x

Glad to hear the little lad is settling in. I agree with the comments by Lunamoona. Sometimes things are just meant to be and maybe this is one of them. I hope that you are lucky with his health, and deafness really shouldn't be a problem. I agree with others though - get some rock solid insurance in place NOW - before anything happens. And you will have learned a lot to help you next time you purchase a puppy, or know someone else who is about to.
Good luck to you both
Kat