Can anyone confirm that the KC accept litter brother/sister matings for registration please?

there was one registered in our breed in the last BRS so I presume they do.

omg i carnt beleave that !!!!

i thought they would only do half brother/sister i guess things have changed

Yes they definately do.

Thank you for your replies. I knew the KC took registrations for half brother/ half sister matings. They are not that uncommon really, but I was hoping that even the KC would draw the line at full siblings matings.

We had at least 3 full sibling matings in our breed last year :(

and the pups ,born ok ?

As far as I know, yes they were.

The problem is with brother to sister matings is the problems do not always surface in that generation.  I know from experience when I used a dog that was a resulf of a brother to sister mating I had megaoesphagus and so did others who have used the dog.  I know this is not the only problem which can arise however it is one example of when the parents might be okay but not the subsequent offspring.

It should be banned in my opinion.

I have done half brother/half sister however the other halfs of the pedigree are not close.

i agree this should be banned

Yes, I know of a litter sister brother mating, the resultant pups were lovely, better than either of their parents really. Not something I would do myself, but worked in this instance.

I agree the puppies can be lovely however as I have said its the subsequent generations that pay the price.

These matings happen (usually by accident) and the pups should be registered for statistical purposes so that their existence can be confirmed/recorded, in the same way as mis marks non standards etc.

Surely it is better when someone gets a pup like this that the fact is known and recorded for information rather than the pups be unregistered.  Of course the litter should be endorsed.

A Friend of mine caught her 6 month old litter mates mis-mating and allowed the bitch to keep one puppy and culled the rest because of the close relationship (this was in the 1960's, and the dog I believe did very well in the showring, but I don't think was used for further breeding.

My current litter are a deliberate half brother sister mating, but both parents sires are completely unrelated and came from different continents.

one of the dogs went to the states, where he very quickly got made up and has been used a stud a few times. We're now 3 generations on from him and to my knowledge there haven't been any problems. Of course all the bitches he was used on were outcrosses, and also there is the possibility that any 'defects' were kept quiet by the breeders. But, as I say to my knowledge, this worked out well.

There was a litter advertised on CD recently, the product of a full sister/brother mating. The parents of this litter were born in May 2007 and the litter born Dec 2007 that makes them 7-8 months at the time of whelping!!!!! Lets hope that they made a mistake with the DOB but they are still young littermates. ...No mention of a 'mistake'... quite proud infact.
Oh yes......  they claim to be/are Accredited Breeders.

carnt get my head around it all ! i hope to god the DOB is wrong ,i think breeding is wrong when the mum to be is only 1 year old but kc will reg them.

this sort of thing makes me miss the rolling eyes smiley :(  Lets hope it was a mistake!

tooolz,

underage breeding.

I would really appreciate it if you can let me know which litter you refer to please? All litters are screened before being added to the Puppy Register and if we had been aware of this, it would never have got through. I can only assume that the dams details have been added or updated to show the DOB, after the litter was added. The litter DOB can not be altered once added to the system unless Admin does it. Please let me know (off forum) and I will investigate. As you are probably aware, underage breeding is against our Terms and Conditions of Use:

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/html/conditions.html

However, we have only recently introduced the policy of insisting that a full pedigree, KC reg. number and date of birth be added for the dam of the litter. It may very well be a typing error, but we will check anyway. At times, things do slip through the net, and this is why we appreciate it if someone highlights it to us. I look forward to hearing from you off forum.

But at least these people are being honest that they had an accidental mating between litter mates!

How many keep quite and use another dogs name I wonder....

yes ice queen ive heard of this happening too ,!!

> ,i think breeding is wrong when the mum to be is only 1 year old but kc will reg them.

The KC will not now (been a few years now) register litters when the bitch was under 1 year at tiem of mating.

i am really shocked that a breeder would do this sister to brother etc mating and even more shocked that the KC allow the litter to be re'ged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately there are a few breedings on here that don't ring true but Admin can't keep their eyes on everything.

>Admin can't keep their eyes on everything.

Very true Perrodeagua. Hence, why we appreciate people taking the time to contact us when they spot anything amiss. We do try our best but can't be everywhere all the time and obviously do not have the breed 'insider' information that the rest of you have. Having said that, we do take all tip offs and complaints seriously, but we will only deal in facts. Anonymous emails or those just out to cause mischief are binned. :)

Registration is simply a record of what happened, the parentage.  Whether the pairing is a good idea or not is not up to the Kennel Club.

There is no reason why a brother sister mating should produce any more problems than mating unrelated animals that both carry a fault. 

The closer the relationship the higher the chance that the parents will have characteristics in common, these may be good (which is why a breeder just might want to do the mating) or of course the bad ones may come through, but in some ways I would sooner take a chance on the known points behind a sibling pairing than on a dog of unknown ancestry which may or may not have health issues behind or be closely related as so often accidental litters can be, or where the local romeo sires litters on all the local bitches including his daughters.

surly a sire's history would not be unknown to the breeder who im sure would do a lot of research into his backgound before any mating took place.
I understand your comment about local un-neauted dogs sireing to everything going but surely if you line breed you want the best from a litter not protenal problems in the furture?
Not being a breeder myself i would like to know more.

There is something i would like an opinion on. A Friend (not me, honest) is thinking of mating a bitch to the brother of the dam. Comments please

i cant see any problem with that, in my 2 border bitches there is alot of father daughter matings and also a son to mother mating, plus lots of aunt nephew, uncle niece matings oh and a few half sibling matings

Such close breeding should only be done when the breeder thoroughly knows the health/breeding history/temperament of the related animals.

If there is the slightest question mark with the animals being line bred to then these are likely to become concentrated in the offspring.  Any issues with temperament especially will become apparent with highly strung animals the result.

For example the dogs I have line-bred to in my own breeding I have known personally and into old age.  by the time I had line-bred to them I had seen many of their offspring and knew their temperament and health well.

My Jozi came from a very even litter and has produced excellent offspring to the two males her offspring that have been mated came from excellent litters, and more importantly her older offspring in 3 cases have already sired or produced good offspring themselves and had good health results,a nd she is a healthy and almost 9 year old with some outstanding virtues.

This makes me feel justified in doing a half sibling mating.

Her daughters (my Lexi's) full brother from a later litter is also a top winning dog and siring excellent litters.  If for some reason I had no other way of preserving Jozi's qualities (because of the sire being a complete outcross) except through two full siblings then I might even have considered a full brother sister mating, but fortunately that is not the position.

Of course such breeding should only be done when there is depth of knowledge for many generations of the pedigree, and the resulting offspring must be used with even more care than would normally apply.

> A Friend (not me, honest) is thinking of mating a bitch to the brother of the dam. Comments please

Why.  What do they hope to achieve or preserve by doing this.  If they have good reasons then it isn't a problem assuming they know the ancestors and common animals traits really well and what they have produced.

>The parents of this litter were born in May 2007 and the litter born Dec 2007 that makes them 7-8 months at the time of whelping!!!!!

To clarify: On investigating, the Dams DOB was 7th May 2006 and she had her litter on 13th December 2007. This made her 19 months old.

Thanks for info

I quite agree with brainless that this is a mating which should only be attempted by an experienced breeder. I knew of one VERY famous breeder in the 60s who mated a brother and sister, both of whom were champions. She got 4 champions in the litter of 7 and they themselves all went on to be producers of winners/champions. That said, she was a very experienced breeder who knew the  background of the pedigree inside out.

hi

can any tell me if KC accept registration for puppies bredd by farther & daughter

thanks

thay accept brother /sister so im sure thay do !!x

Yes they do.

Debs

As long as both are themselves registered without endorsements, and the bitch is neither too old not too young, nor has had too many litters, then yes.

May I ask why you would breed father & daughter and brother and sister? Iam sorry but you wouldn't do it with humans why do it with animals? I personally think that is way to close for a breeding it should be atleast 4 generations.

If the line is exception in type and temperament, with no bad faults, then this mating would be of great benefit and the progeny would stand a high chance of passing these qualities on to their progeny too. 

It's also a mating that the old breeders used to do to see what faults were in their lines.  But those were the days of large, experienced breeders and they would run on the whole litter to maturity to see what they'd produced, not sell their mistakes to unsuspecting families, which is what inexperienced breeders tend to do today, often using the phrase "Well we all have to learn somehow".  I shudder everytime I hear it. 

As in all matings, it depends on the quality of the prospective parents. It's a mistake to think of animals as being people - they're not. Given the opportunity animals will mate with whoever's available, blood-relative or not. In Western society that's far from the norm - even given the opportunity the huge majority refrain!

Personally I wouldn't buy any dog that didn't have a few repeat names in the 3rd, 4th and 5th generations back, on both sides - provided, of course, that I knew the quality of those individuals! A pedigree containing no repeat names would turn me off - too much of a gamble.

well said JG :)

I too do not think using humans as a good example is right. Humans after all rarely give a thought to the breeding of well-constructed healthy individuals with good temperament, I expect more of dog breeder's and if they deem it necessary to breed to a close relative then they are probably right.

> May I ask why you would breed father & daughter and brother and sister? Iam sorry but you wouldn't do it with humans why do it with animals?

The church doesn't decide on dog matings.
Most human breeding taboos have been decided upon for religous reasons.Close human matings were and still are desirable in some less 'civilised' societies to keep the wealth and land within the family, although royal families have practised close matings for centuries.

Close matings between dogs are often more reliable in predicting outcomes than total outcrosses - but as comprehensive a knowledge of the genetic makeup of the individuals as possible - is essential.

I believe that too many inexperienced people use close matings as a quick fix to "stardom".
They see experienced breeders to do so and see the resulting progeny and go oh that is how you get nice puppies, easy!

I myself don't like too close matings, having seen what can happen when the illness is in the lines but not known by the experienced breeder who did the mating!
I had a bitch with close breeding background (not as close as full sisters though) and two out of 4 puppies had problems...
Puppies from the previous litter that was line bred with a different dog but similar pedigree were fine themselves but have passed the problem to their cildren/grandchildren...
None of the "parent dogs" or their relatives were known to have this illness so it came out of nowhere but now firmly sits in the lines.
People having bred on from the same lines are only now, 3-5 generations later starting to believe there is a problem.
There were many top dogs of that time in the pedigree so now many inexperienced people are lining back to those dogs as they see the titles but have not got the full picture!!
Obviously we could have been unlucky and had the illness even if the pedigree was not so "close" but it is a known fact inbreeding will bring out good and bad in the lines...

Surely if you pick good examples of the breed that have a solid good background (generation after generation) you will end up with dogs looking like the past generations even if they are not a result of a sibling mating?
I would imagine with most breeds you do not have to go back that many generations to get the same dogs popping up anyway, without the need of having the same names in the 5 generation pedigree?
Does it matter if all puppies are good examples of the breed but do not look exactly the same type?

My family is not inbred but we all still look the same :).
Must be because of "breeding" with people who have similar looks to us and now it seems the family look comes through even if you get put together with totally different look :) :) :)

In genetics the small variation of the genes is proven to be bad for the species so I don't quite understand why we should do very close breedings generation after generation with our dogs as in the end if everybody does this won't we end up with very limited genetic background?
We might have great dogs now but what about the future of the breed?
So many less popular lines have already been lost over the fashionable lines well at least in my breed...

Excuse my awfully incorrect terms and don't shoot me :) I'm only questioning to understand better!

> My family is not inbred but we all still look the same

A whole other thread here Noora... it is a fairly well established phenomenon that we chose a life-partner by their resemblence to ourself.
Obviously some markers are subtle ones but in the main we are attracted to ourself. :-)

Although I wouldn't critisize experienced breeders who line breed, I myself can't practise this in one of my breeds because it is thought that a serious neurological condition may be carried by the majority of the gene pool - so out-breeding is the safest route to take in this instance.

> I believe that too many inexperienced people use close matings as a quick fix to "stardom".

I would say that the majority of close mating are not for 'stardom' but rather for financial reasons :-(
BYBs love it...its cheap!

>I believe that too many inexperienced people use close matings as a quick fix to "stardom".

Being a cynic I would say it's more usually done because the dog's the most convenient - and cheapest! - to use.

IMO a close breeding is fine once in a every few generations (provided the two animals concerned have no major faults and excel in several areas), but after each close breeding I would do a more distant one than usual, but a complete outcross would have to be extremely carefully chosen not to reintroduce problems that I'd worked hard to eradicate, nor to bring in an entirely new set of problems!

I understand breeders who have bred for a long time using dogs they must know very well so should know of any problems in the lines too wanting to use dogs whose background they know instead "mystery" dog...
But I would not say most people will have the deep knowledge needed, if they are not your own lines you will not know what has been kept hidden by the breeder of those dogs.
I know this happens, breeders turning a blind eye on a possible problem in their line and saying it is not there especially if they have bred the same line for years and years... Others then breed from the same experienced breeders lines and whoop an illness that is definately not in their lines surfaces time after time!

Based on my experience and what I have read about basic genetics I still think too much close breeding happens in the pedigree world...
I can't really see why we should keep breeding close relatives together as it is not advised in more scientific breeding...
Look at zoos and their breeding programs, surely these are based in health and longevity of the species they are trying to perserve and the programs are based on science and knowledge of genetics?
I suppose zoos work in a more open environment when it comes to breeding and health of the animals so possibility of a nasty surprise is a lot less than in the dog breeding world where a lot goes on under the covers and is never spoken about openly...

I suppose as a breeder you would rather sometimes use a dog who you know instead of a dog you do not know at all and can only rely on what is told to you about its family/what you find out when researching the line.

Look at zoos and their breeding programs, surely these are based in health and longevity of the species they are trying to perserve and the programs are based on science and knowledge of genetics?

Having been involved with a couple of zoos, I'm always amazed at their ignorance of the animals that they keep.  Remember Marwell losing all their penguins to distemper? 

I suppose as a breeder you would rather sometimes use a dog who you know instead of a dog you do not know at all and can only rely on what is told to you about its family/what you find out when researching the line.

That's exactly why it's important to be 'involved' in the breed and attend functions, whether they be shows, working trials, obedience tests etc, so that you can actually see the current dogs and talk to people have have seen or owned their ancestors.  You learn who to trust and who not!  Most breeders will allow you to see all of their dogs if they think that you have a genuine interest in the breed and you may see the previous generation or two.

The old breeders used to say "Twice in and once out" when they were taking about breeding.