Did anyone see this tonight?

Did I really hear the farmer say what I think he said? Did he really state that he impregnates his Jersey cows with fertile eggs from his more prized (and rarer) breed knowing full well that the poor Jersey was going to need a caesarian to deliver? The calves were too big for a natural birth.

If I did then I think something is wrong somewhere. To me this is definately unethical.

:-( :-( :-(

Sorry I didnt, but what were the reasons behind this??? did he/they elaborate at any point??? )
Lea :)

All I caught were the fact that Jerseys were good mums and produce a lot of milk. He didn't have too many of his rarer breed (didn't catch the name but they were black/white beef cows) so was implanting 4 or 5 of his precious cows eggs into the Jerseys. One egg per cow ;-) This way he was managing to increase his herd without having to wait a long time. The calf would be worth about £1000 at a month old.

I just can't believe the vets allowed this practice. Especially as they go on about dog breeding problems with certain breeds.

Edited to correct a spelling error!

I missed this, was the farmer in Jersey?

I watched most of it whilst cooking dinner and I missed him say that. If it's true I agree that it's very unethical and shouldn't be allowed.

Weren't those kittens gorgeous :-)
It;s a good job I don't work in a veterinary surgery because I'd be bringing home all the waifs and strays :-)

no different to what happens with good horses....they take eggs from top event/race/jump or whatever mares and implant them into brood mares so as not to a) risk the valuable mare and b) lose valuable competition time in foal/rearing a foal. No one bats an eye lid about this and its been done for many years.

I think it is the definate likelyhood of a caesarian resulting that is bothering people Sam, but this is not uncommon in some breeds of cattle, such as the Belgian Blue anyway is it?  I'm not sure that caesarians in cattle are quite what they are in dogs either as I believe the cow is only sedated and the whole thing is achieved standing up with an incision along the side.
I suppose it is rather pushing the limits as to what is acceptable in achieving the best possible and most desirable stock but then it is not unknown in the world of dogs to have breeds that regularly run to deliveries in this way either.

Yes, it's the size difference that really bothers me. Why couldn't they have found a breed that is large enough to give birth naturally? To knowingly implant eggs into cows that are much smaller than the donor is, to my mind, very unethical, and unfair on the cow. We wouldn't, for example, implant eggs from a Great Dane into a Spaniel and expect things to go normally, would we? Not that we would implant dogs eggs, but you know what I mean.

I just seems odd to me.  I should think a pedigree Jersey would be valuable too and not worth risking.

Well, I have just watched the programme and I see it is the Belgian Blue!  The explanation given was the Jerseys have a good mothering instinct and lots of milk.  Can't be a cheap way of doing things, involving two vets!

Belgian Blues aren't a "Rare"breed, this is the breed that my friend has breeds & hers is a self sustaining herd, she does use sexed AI straws though so she can chose to breed heifers when needed

Self-sustaining but do they calve naturally?  As I understood it Belgian Blues struggle to deliver their own calves because of the overbuild of their buttocks.

Hers don't seem to have problems, she did import the originals though from a good breeder on the continent

> she did import the originals though from a good breeder on the continent

Good breeder or not it seems to be the norm, goodness knows how she has managed it, given their anatomy, perhaps she should be exported her stock back again ;-)
Thinking again at what this farmer seems to be doing.  It seems less unethical when you consider any cow, even it's own mother, would probably need a section.  One cow or another it means a section, so you might as well use a mother that will rear it well. 
The whole question of ethics lies in the Belgian Blue itself, it seems to me.

As usual Isabel you are quoting from a very expert & specialist source ER Wikipedia Hm not a source I would want to base an extensive knowledge of British Belgian Blues on I prefer to read up on expert papers rather than brief free online information. My friend has had her BB's since the early 80's & has bred in the same lines as the linked information. Hers come originally from the dairy strain & by sexed straw breeding can produce the lean meat in the bullocks & the easy calving in the hiefers. She is BTW an organic farmer & Butcher-she does not sell to supermarkets or any other outlets for resale as raw meat, she does however supply restaurants.

The British Belgian are rather different having been regarded as a seperate strain since the 1990's according to their societies web site and selected to try to reduce the problems to some degre but the breed in the programme was referred to as the Belgian Blue as has this thread so perhaps yours friends herd are not a good example.
I have the same reservations about Wikipedia as you do :-) but I chose it as the simplest reference to offer on something that there is plenty of references to but I really did not think it there was any debate about the high level of caesarian section occuring.
Here is a site showcases bulls and acknowledging the issue and here is a journal reference to studies into problems resulting from the issue.  There are many more, just Google :-)
I can see how a breeder could select less extreme animals, although that would rather defeat the whole point of this breed I would imagine, but I have no idea how sex selection of calves would help the problem. As long as they are pure bred animals wouldn't they just pass on the same genes to produce these enormous rumps?  I have also never heard of a dairy strain although I understand they are commonly bred to dairy cows in an effort to produce an easier calving while still giving some of the benefits of extra meat.
Not sure what contribution where you sell the meat makes :-)
Might I add I googled simply on Belgian Blue not adding caesarian to try to eliminate some bias and all these reference occured on the first page.  I seems it is very hard to find any reference to the Belgian Blue that does not mention caesarian.

They are still Belgian Blues & the Dairy strain has evolved into the intermediate strain here in the UK for ease of calving. What difference does the sexed strw breeding make ? well quite a lot I would thimk as the breeding cows age they need replacement(but not every year)so when new heifers are required X chromosome carrying sperm straws are used to produce heifers & bulls that produce self calving female offspring semen is used instead of the Y chromosome carrying semen from beef producing bulls to produce bullocks for meat production, Did you think that non sexed straws would produce the same ? It is genetic engineering in a way, but using more natural methods-no non cattle genes being introduced. The Dairy stype have no difficulty calving at all. Try reading the paper I linked to in depth rather than googling the breed

My friend's herd must be pretty awful as they regularly win top prizes at the BB shows

> What difference does the sexed strw breeding make ? well quite a lot I would thimk as the breeding cows age they need replacement(but not every year)so when new heifers are required X chromosome carrying sperm straws are used to produce heifers & bulls that produce self calving female offspring semen is used instead of the Y chromosome carrying semen from beef producing bulls to produce bullocks for meat production,

Well yes, but what has that to do with the pacularities of this breeds construction?

> My friend's herd must be pretty awful as they regularly win top prizes at the BB shows

That is what the farmer in the programme is aiming for.  I have no doubt your friend's herd looks magnificent but not sure what relevance that has to the ethics we are discussing.

> Try reading the paper I linked to in depth rather than googling the breed

I did,  Appendix 12?  It just seemed to be a reproduction of a poster I could hardly read, let alone understand, can you explain it?  All other reference appears to be, just as I understood it, that they are developed as beef cattle (you only have to look at the them, it is certainly extreme) that are used on dairy cows to put them in calf together with producing a hybrid calf worthy of beef production.  Now, the hybrid may be more likely to be naturally calved but some poor cow (quite literally :-)) has got to produce the pure bred specimen occasionally to maintain the breed.
Did you not find your link by Googling then? :-)
Really, Moonmaiden, you are the very last person I would have expected to find defending this style of farming :-)

the cows were belgin blues and yes you did hear right.

Really, Moonmaiden, you are the very last person I would have expected to find defending this style of farming

Moonmaiden explains the points well from an 'experience' point of view, regardless of any beliefs she may hold.
if someone is active in something, their life work and where their income is generated from, I would put more faith in that than some google engine search. As someone has said many times on here, living in the real world not the pc one.

And the constructive part of your comment is?