Hi...help needed! We have a 8 mth old tri border collie who is trying my patience! in obedience classes he is a model pupil and on the lead he is great we can do many 'tricks' that are far advanced of his age...however...once he's off the lead he's a different dog. Until about 3 months ago he would recall wonderfully but now he just won't recall at all and if you appraoch him he runs off and circles me...he is particulalry obsessed with sticks and balls not in an agressive way (if you can catch him he will readily given them up) but it's almost as tho he forgets he's got them in his mouth (?). When off his lead he has no interest in food, using a double ball technique doesn't work either. I need some advice because a collie is not the sort of dog you can keep on a lead all the time!

As a stop gap measure how would he react to a ball on a long line like a falconer's lure? If you keep a hold of the line it will hopefully give you control of him. Sounds like he has hit the teenage stage and needs a lot of recall training with him on a line

The post title stood out for me because I don't think there is such a thing as a stubborn border collie :-D Typical of most young collies though your boy has simply found a better game, one that is more rewarding to him than returning to you. I would suggest going back to basics, practising in the garden and just making sure that every time you call him you make a huge game out of it. Only call him when you want to to play, use a tuggy if he likes them or a ball or a squeaky. Call him and play for a few minutes so he knows that when you shout on him it's going to be fun. Try never to call him if you want to do something unpleasant to him.

When you're out walking don't give him his ball straight away - keep it with you, call his name and then play with him - a ball on a rope would be good. Again try not to call him to put his lead on, it's difficult but not impossible. When my youngest was going through a similar stage I would try to leash her up as she walked past, or sit on the ground, she couldn't resist coming to investigate - I never called her unless I wanted to play and now she has a fabulous recall.

thanks for the tips...I'll try the ball on string and see if that gets results...also having done a comprehensive sweep of forums from around the world (!) i think the going back to basics sounds like the most productive way...oh well just when I thought we were getting somewhere!!

Just to cheer you up- collies are very demanding youngsters because they're so bright buuuuut once they get to around 3 years old they're fabulous dogs and you get to enjoy them for another 10 - 14 years after that :)

I've just watched a brilliant dvd called Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson which might be of interest to you.Leslie has used her techniques to train her Afghan hounds and other sighthounds.Basically she teaches conditioned responses to a word that can then be used as an emergency recall no matter what the dog is doing as well as using a trailing line and techniques such as handfeeding.You can get it from www.cleanrun.com which is an American agility website,I'm not sure if its available in the UK.

We put ours on a long line with body harness for a couple of months when he got to about 8 months, it was a bit of a nuisance but I felt much happier being in control of him (he dragged it and I just picked it up if I thought he was going to head off somewhere, then practised recall while he was distracted).  Maybe he just matured a bit during those couple of months but he was better afterwards.  At least yours is good in class, mine was a nightmare and he still at 18 months gets totally overexcited at agility!  I know how hard work they are at that age :) but he will improve.

that sounds good, do american dvds work in the uk machines?

Yes this is a great idea. It wiorked a treat with our BC. I'd keep control of the ball all the time and swing the ball round n the line run and dodge - fast and exciting to make the game more intetresting than finding his own entertainment.( well to outsmart a BC you need to be fast too of course. )

Lots of chase games where he had to chase me to earn a chance at a play with the ball - but the ball always being on a line he could play but never keep the toy as a trophey.

Cava  -  Yes as other people have said you have a teen.  So a kind firm hand! Also at this age I did lots of long walks in different types of locations to make the walks rewarding for him and I could have a wider choice of which ways to go and go through bushes over logs/rocks etc to make my walk more interesting and less predictable. 

And also with a BC they should only have a ball or toy for a limited time each day and the toy should be different each time to help stop them getting fixed on one thing. Different toys made out of different materials, sixes - even 'balls' come in all sizes and materials and shapes. And thre game only happens when I say so and stops when I say so - on the whole, because I am flexible once I have firmly established the behaviour I am looking for.

To break the habbit also a long line in distracting environments on the dog for I think 6 months or so at the very least and each walk work on recall recall recall with lots of reward - food play whatever the dog likes the most.  After this even when you know the distractions are too high keep the dog on a lead or line and this stops bad habbits develping because once you have a bad habbit it is hard to fix and when they are tired they can tend to flip back to habbits even months or years later.

Have fun they are great dogs. I miss my black tri so much. Really fun and reawrding dogs. But at this age I really was like you he was top of the class in all our pet activities but had horrible gaps! And so when he was old enough I took him to a working trials training club thinking what is wrong with my dog! And as soon as I arrived there I saw all the other dogs were working BC's and realised oh! He is just a typical Border Collie!  I wish I had their level of energy and drive!

Just to cheer you up- collies are very demanding youngsters because they're so bright buuuuut once they get to around 3 years old they're fabulous dogs and you get to enjoy them for another 10 - 14 years after that
I agree with the first part of your comment but not the second - and it was actually hugely damaging for me and my family to believe this.  We must enjoy the moments we have with our dogs, because we sadly  actually never know how long they are going to be with us. Never assume anything - no one can know how long a life will  last. :(  But you can know that no matter what the future brings that in the here and now you gave your dog the best life.

Thanks for that advice Jake is 16 months and is really fixated on sticks. His recall is great for my OH (Jake is his dog) but a bit half hearted for me. I also found to get him out of the habit of circling me when I need to get him on the lead to go home I started to put him on the lead at different times, so he would not associate lead with home.
We used a halti whilst he was around 10 months to about 15 months and he is very good now, I say "Gentle" and he knows not to pull me. Our office is forst floor and I have to walk him down for a mid day wee!!
Do you know if all Borders sulk? I walked into the kitchen last nigt when my OH got home and I could tell Jake had been told off(and he had) he ignored OH for about an hour and sulked. Didnt even want a piece of cheese!!
They are so intelligant, he had hurt his feelings by telling him off (he/Jake had approached a bull terrier type on a lead and did not recall straight away, which could be dangerous) My OH said the dog was pulling its owner and growling.
I think its back to basis often when they try thier limit, but I will try restricting the stick more,so he is not so fixated.
Though all the BC's I see are the same highly active and rareing to go, he causes more problems for me running backwards into me whislt my cocker and I walk behind OH!!! His anticipation of OH's actions is a treat to watch as they both try and outwitt the other (Dog usually wins!!sshh)

This post is a very good illustration of the difference between an "obedience" dog and an obedient one! :D

His behaviour is not collie specific; all dogs turn from velcro dogs to bog off dogs at about this age, give or take a few months depending on size/breed etc.

The two ball technique WILL work if you do it correctly and provides the basis for good control especially for pastoral breeds when you have raised the ball drive.

If you google the two hose game you will find the method described or you could look at DVDs by Flinks etc.

Yep,suz1985,American dvds work fine.I can't recommend this dvd highly enough,lots of good ideas!

In answer to your question do all collies sulk? whilst I'm not an expert I can tell you that my last two were great sulkers...especially after baths...and this one is learning quick also! Its the dirty looks that they can give as well that really kills!

To everyone else thanks for the tips...I tried the sitting down technique which ended in a 20 minute stand off after which Alf just bogged off further away...obviously I'm not as interetsing as you! I did however have some success with a dog whistle but I think it was because its new and strange sounding because he totally blanked it again today! On a more successful note he is now recalling brilliantly in the house again...so hopefully (!) he'll replicate it on his walks soon. Onwards and upwards......

> in obedience classes he is a model pupil and on the lead he is great we can do many 'tricks' that are far advanced of his age...however...once he's off the lead he's a different dog. Until about 3 months ago he would recall wonderfully but now he just won't recall at all

Dogs do reach stages though where their brains become jumbled (for want of a more technical phrase), I think of it a bit like information overload. There are specific ages when this happens and previously learned behaviour might be lost, albeit temporarily, we hope!  It might be worthwhile just going back to basics again and re-teaching the recall.  Personally, if the recall's lost then at this age I would stick him on a long line until you've regained it, and don't try recalling him in a no win situation, ie if there's another dog to chase or ball to hog.

> he is particulalry obsessed with sticks and balls not in an agressive way (if you can catch him he will readily given them up

Lucky you ... one of my BC girlies still doesn't readily give her ball up outside, though we have moved on a long time ago from the headlocks and wrestles to the ground!!!  I've usually found that when someone else appears on the scene with a ball then she relinquishes hers, purely cause she can't accommodate both!!
What I have found works really, really well with her is 'swop' and a piece of sausage shoved on her nose. But I do have to make sure that the sausage goes in with one hand and the other is ready to grab the ball ... she's amazingly adept at 'swopping' and getting the ball back before I can pick it up!
Good luck and enjoy!

Jake learnt (no idea how) to bring his "fetch" back and he sticks his head between you legs and drops the "fetch" just by your heel. It looks really fantastic and people ask how we taught him that? and we have no idea he just does it!
I walked into our kitchen the other day and Jake way lying on the floor and he just rolled his eyes at me and I knew he had been told off! Its so funny he has so many expressions (like Gromit on Wallace & Gromit) my spaniel either looks happy (tounge out) or sad (see the whites of his eyes) no in betweens and Cockers do not sulk!!

A seller on ebay carries that DVD. Just search for seller positiveanimalsolutions; it's £18 plus shipping.

What you have on your hands is a stroppy teenager. Dogs go through a teenage phase, just the same as humans do. Think 'Kevin The Teenager'. When you call him back, these are the phrases that run through his head;
'That is sooooooo unfair, I'm chillin'
'Everybody HATES me'
'You just don't WANT me to enjoy myself'
'Alright....I'm COMING'
'WHATEVER'
'I'll do it IN A MINUTE'
'You don't understand'
'All my mates can do whatever they like'
The good news is, he will grow out of it. It usually lasts only 3-5 months. In this respect a teenage dog is preferable to a teenage boy.

Just to add I would continue with the whistle training too, it will get a better reaction particularly at this age it is precise and understood.

As already said it is an age thing, he is at that age when the world is his oyster and far more interesting, young adolescents are particularly interested in seeking out their own kind, they are pushy and become over excited, it is not only his recall problem, getting lost, hurt, running into roads etc, but other male dogs will also at this time wish to put him in his place.

a collie is not the sort of dog you can keep on a lead all the time!

Many of us have breeds that have high energy and need that off lead run, but during the adolescent stage the long line is even more important, when recall goes aray, (which is very common) you get your pup on that long line, as I said previously he is at the prime age for attacks from other dogs, not only is this about recall and obediance but keeping your dog out of harms way, if he is attacked it may in turn make him dog aggressive or dog timid, so don't think too much that your dog needs his runs, you should now play ball in the garden or a secure area to run off excess energy, and then do dog walks on a long line, with training involved, only let him off lead if you are very sure there are no other dogs around, allow him to meet and greet via the long line, and be overly vigilant, all your good work can be undone if you allow him to be attacked.

As already said this stage will be outgrown, keep up with recall and all other training and bide your time for this stage to be over with, above all else remember his safety. :-)