Hi ill make this quick and would like as many HELPFUL replies as possible.

Here we go, a puppy from my litter last year has come to stay for the week as they have gone on holiday, he is now turning 11 months, overall hes quite a nice little chap (has his mothers temperament in general) My concerns are that he has hardly any socialisation whatsoever, there garden backs on to a feild and they just let him off on there when he goes for a walk, thats when he does, we took a little stroll into town steady pace nothing too much and he was absolutly knakered, he also lunged at another dog and was extremely wary of people, never seen a cyclist and doesnt have many manners on the lead. I was wondering whether a muzzle would be needed at one point as he is pretty unpredicatable, but i think its fear based as he hasnt been socialised. however he isnt too strong yet so he was well under control and didnt get the chance to do anything at all. His owner said to me before that she once has him tied up outside the shop and he nearly had this blokes arm off that came to pet him, she seemed to think it was quite amusing but i wasnt at the least. He doesnt seem to get much exercise and his muscle tone is very weak. He also has a bad jaw line im not quite sure what the term is but one canine on the bottom row protrudes further out than the other, they have an undershot bite, but i hope you know what i mean, so he cannot be shown its not screwed just sticks out further. They were hoping to get him out for stud duties but now that he cant be shown ( i doubt they would have put the effort in to do all that it takes to have him ready for showing but nevermind) he will get very little offers, and i doubt at all that he will get work.

Anyway they are coming to collect him one day soon, i have taken him out on many walks and done lots of training with him in this week as he know very littles just sit and his name really. What shall i say to them when they come round, i have got a few things i wanted to say. ie in a couple of months etc, he will be a big uncontrollable mess, too naughty too unsocialised and in bad shape due to crap food and no exercise, im going to say that if they dont get serious with the socialisation that he could bite someone and he will be pts and they could have a case on their hands and be sued, also a bad name for the breed and me, he wont get any stud work your not going to make money from him, do you really want him? coz' its quite obvious your not really willing to put the time in and i dont want you to ruin a sweet little dog. I then would take him off their hands rehabilitate him then re-home him to a pet home.

And before anyone says, why on earth did you sell him to these ppl, well her husband has experience with am bulldogs and used to breed staffies many moons ago, she works from home and they have huge garden with a field etc etc, they are nice but am little misguided i have come to realise and dont have the time of knowledge to socialise or own a dog like this, i have a feeling he is left outsidr majority of the time also.

Thanks Louise

It is very unfortunate that you didn't establish what their plans were for exercise and socialisation before you sold him to them, whatever their apparent experience, but he is their dog now so the best you can do at this point is discuss the matter with them pointing out the benefits to his health and the ease to their life that a well socialised dog can bring if it is not too late. 
As far as stud work goes I presume he is endorsed.  If not, again it is all water under the bridge as you are only in a position to advise now.

I think you have to be honest with them. Tell them your concerns. . I am afraid that there is little you can do to force the issue, and you probably dont want to alienate them. You could opening the conversation by saying honestly the problems that you had, and that you were concerned he may bite. You could try asking them how THEY think they are coping.  You could offer constructive training advice or recommend a good trainer. I agree that he would not be good for stud work, and he should have been endorsed in the beginning really, but there you go. 

It facinates me how these DDB all seem to be looking forward to stud work....
I'm old fashioned I know but I only expect the top quality specimens from any breed to be offered at stud........not buy a puppy with a view to.

>I'm old fashioned I know but I only expect the top quality specimens from any breed to be offered at stud........not buy a puppy with a view to.

Especially one with such a basic fault as a bad mouth. That alone makes him a very dubious prospect as a stud becuase it's such a difficult problem to breed out once it's got into a line. I'm very sorry for the responsible breeders of DDB (among other breeds) because of the huge numbers of byb leaping on the breeding bandwagon. They're really bringing their breeds into disrepute.

I would rephrase what you want to say so it's less confrontational, of course I know you weren't trying to say it politely just to us. But yes I would gently explain your concerns and the reason for them. You could perhaps even make him a little 'report card' so they have it in writing what your suggestions would be - 'XX had a lovely time here, I wonder if a little more regular exercise would be good to prevent health problems later in life' and so on.

I did say to her she will get very little if any stud work if he doesnt do well in the show ring, and tbh now i know them better they wouldnt put the effort into finding a ringcraft class nevermind a trainer. I think my suggestions and concerns will fall on deaf ears or they will be bothered by what i have said and know they will not do as i suggested so not offer for him to visit again, and im not sure i will. if he gets bigger and harms the wellbeing of my dogs, he is still a pup so mason put him in his place, but i will not tolerate my dogs being harmed if he is aggressive next time they want me to care for him ( for free ). They do not live to far from here which is a good thing and i know where they live so i can force myself upon them to come and visit to see him/check up on him.

Especially one with such a basic fault as a bad mouth. That alone makes him a very dubious prospect as a stud becuase it's such a difficult problem to breed out once it's got into a line.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but if a dog produced such a basic fault, would your reconsider breeding from the parents then?

> I did say to her she will get very little if any stud work if he doesnt do well in the show ring

I would not say anything different to them but, as others have pointed out, this breed is beloved of BYB so unfortunately that may not be true and you would have to hope they do not just go ahead and advertise him.  Is he endorsed?

I did say to her she will get very little if any stud work if he doesnt do well in the show ring,
Are they aware of this fault?  if so, are they aware that they won't get any stud work (except from byb) and do they still want him if that's the case? Could you phrase it so they may rethink having him?  However, if that happens, would you be prepared/able to take him back?

if he gets bigger and harms the wellbeing of my dogs, he is still a pup so mason put him in his place, but i will not tolerate my dogs being harmed if he is aggressive next time they want me to care for him
What about the wellbing of other dogs too.... I wouldn't like an untrained agressive breed of this size and power near me or my dogs either.... have you mentioned the DDA?

He is not endorsed (Stupid me a mistake im not going to make again, i endorsed bitches not dogs)  but i will overstress the fact that she will not get any buisness and she wont be able to advertise him for stud and neither will i or will i help her with such matter, i will say that its an obvious fault and any bitches that come to him on viewing him they will walk away. After i say that she wont be able to use him for stud im afraid his purpose with her might fizzle away???? Luckily in lincolnshire there isnt much business for them

JenP yeh i have all this planned to say about DDA and how they could be sued, he could turn on them, or thier kids (is that too much, i think i need to scare her) and how he will be put donw if he bites someone. I dont know if they are aware of his jaw, i noticed straight away, but thats just me.

Now I know what I am going to say is conroversial but .....have you considered having him castrated whilst in your care?  

This would mean that

(1) he would never be used at stud and therefore your line would not be compromised
(2) it might deal with any potential aggression problems.

If you haven't endorsed him, its the only way to ensure that he is not bred from - and if they have not taken any of your other advice how can you be sure that they would not use him at stud on anything with four legs?

Im aware they might not want him anymore, OH and i were discussing it walking him this afternoon, and i am fully prepared to have him here, luckily atm in time his social problem can be rectified 6 weeks or more of hard work and he will be spot on, hes getting better in this week being around mine. He will be re-homed to a pet home and a contract signed, i was considering getting him done if he had to stay with me but i know its better waiting until hes older, just an agreement for him to be done at correct age (or can i endorse him when he has been signed back over to me?). He is a very loving dog, house trained and good around their kids and cats apparantly. just lack of social skills is all.

> or can i endorse him when he has been signed back over to me?.

Yes, but his registration has to be signed over. 

Now I know what I am going to say is conroversial but .....
:-0 :-0 :-0  I like your style Lokis mum - I'm not sure what the legal implications of neutering a dog that doesn't belong to you are, but it sounds like there is every possibility of him being used by BYB's regardless, and this would definately stop them.

Louiseddb - given the circumstances, peronally, I don't think 11 months would be too young to get him done, assuming you have him back, and give him some socialisation, realistically, he's going to be over a year when he's rehomed anyway.

I don't think endorsing him will help.  The sort of breeder who will want to register the pups will be put off by this fault, and endorsing him won't stop him being used by BYB's who are the only ones likely to want to use him

Now I missed the point that they might not want him back in any case - so it certainly strengthens the case for castration!   That way you wouldn't have tow rooy about endorsing him when you do find him a pet home - and of course it would ensure that he does go to a pet home!

After i say that she wont be able to use him for stud im afraid his purpose with her might fizzle away???? Luckily in lincolnshire there isnt much business for them

But Lincolnshire is full of puppy farms.

Yeh i think ill definately get him the snip if it comes to that, ill wait until hes fully re-habed. Maybe when i have a good home waiting, they dont need the rest like a bitch spay they just lob em off dont they lol. I know i see enough adverts for bybs cross ddb pits and am bulls etc and i do not want him to go that way. Also im worrying that he will not have they best life if he stays with them, they will no longer have the use for him and like now left in the garden no exercise or attention. What if they want there money back for him?

>But Lincolnshire is full of puppy farms.

Ooooh I didnt know that!! I know there is one about 6 miles from me, due to the advert in the local paper everyweek about thepupys they have, but I didnt realise there were alot around here :( :( :(
Lea :)

Neither did i, a sheltered life i lead

Well if they want the money back for him, I would, under these circumstances, give it!  More important than your pocket is the well-being of the dog, imo!

Louise, is it wishful thinking that they will want you to have him back?? Or have they said something.
You sound as if you are getting your hopes up that they will say you can have him!!
I hope they do, but just make sure you have the advice about socialisation etc right in your head in case they dont want to give him up :) :)
Lea :) :)

You sound as if you are getting your hopes up that they will say you can have him!!

I hope that's the case, but I think you're right to point out that this may not be the case.  What if they DO want him back.... After all, in law, they are still his owners.

What if they want there money back for him? Unless they voluntarily surrender him to you, then you'll have to give them their money back - otherwise, surely it would be considered theft?!?

I know i could be spinning a yarn thinking that they will give him up, but i think they need to realise that they are not the best home for him, without me telling that in so little words.

Going to start with his mouth, your not going to be able to stud him out, it is a major fault that may be passed onto puppies, (non of his litter mates have it) so im sorry but you just cant. I bet she thinks she will be able to but im wiser. Then with his socialness, he may bite, you will get fined. could be one of your kids or kids mates etc etc if you thing he is pulling now GOD wait until hes fully grown and found his stubborn roots, he will play deaf and you will have no chance and he wont b able to be re-homed then. Hes a male so maybe twice the work was with mason, but he now has a faultless temp and were applying for PAT dogs yay. Erm then his lack of exercise, no muscle tone cant be good for his hips and joints can it? He isnt very big for 11monts either duno whether thats me used to my bigguns.

> if a dog produced such a basic fault, would your reconsider breeding from the parents then?

I certainly wouldn't repeat the mating, or even consider a close relative.

could not agree with you more

Ooooh I didnt know that!! I know there is one about 6 miles from me, due to the advert in the local paper everyweek about thepupys they have, but I didnt realise there were alot around here :-( :-( :-(

Sadly there are. :(

One thing I want to point out is that fear aggression etc is not just about lack of socialisation. It plays a part but being honest if I had a bitch that produced a dog with signs of fear agression I probably wouldn't mate her again.     

I would be direct and tell them that he needs to be lead trained as this exercises different muscles than just free running continually , tell them how bad he is on the lead and very unsociable and that he needs to be mixing at this early stage with other dogs or they will have problems when he is an adult , no point beating about the bush they must respect you enough to trust you with thier puppy (although I know you bred him) for them to take your advice on the breed even if they have had similar breeds before.

This is the only puppy that shows signs of fear agression and not stepping foot out of his own garden/field for 8 months i think i would be scared too. His mum my bitch has a perfect temperament and so do all the other pups, who have been well socialised. He isnt showing proper aggression now he is just frightened, i will point out to them that he will get aggressive if they dont socialise him properly when he gets older. I have no doubt on my bitch in producing sound pups at all.

I have no doubt on my bitch in producing sound pups at all.

Except for pups with a poor mouth.

Louise - I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you have an experienced mentor?  a responsible breeder that could help you before these things happen.  I don't want to sound unkind, but reading some of your other posts you seem to have had a fair few problems and this is just your first litter.  Isn't this the second home you've had problems with - didn't one try to sell on one of your pups and didn't you have an agent selling some of the others.

To be honest (and I don't mean to be hurtful), in a big powerful breed like this, these are big risks to take without someone experienced and responsible advising and supporting you.

I am in regular contact with an experienced breeder and kennel owner who is also a judge in my breed, he has complemented my bitch who has extremely good linage and breed type, i do admit my first litter was probably with haste and not the best stud at all. He will not be used again ever! and i do have alot of knowlegde of bloodlines and dogs and their background. I have been in the breed for over 5 years now and when i breed again i know i will do alot differently. Using advice from on here i.e. endorsements on ALL pups pedigrees and i will do extensive vetting of potential owners. They are strong powerful dogs but i know i have mine under perfect control and know how to handle them very well. The problem i had before was with the POL to the stud dog, they went on and sold thier bitch behind my back, but i have since found her new owners and i am in contact regularly and she is doing very well.

I have been to shows and spoken to people and i intend to hold back a pup for showing when i do eventually have another litter. This was my first litter on my own, my family bred working collies and i have a background with animals especially dogs.

I am very knowledgable on the breed and its problems, but i have to start somewhere and its been a sharp learning curve for me.

PS his owners rang today after they were suppose to be collecting him last night, they are coming to collect him tomorrow eve, and i have a pad with notes on, with what i need to say, but i think they may be greatful for concerns as not everyone is as doggy as me, hopefully they will take them on board.

Isn't your bitch currently in whelp?

Nope

If they live near you why not tell them about your concerns and offer to maybe go for walks with them to help socialize their puppy.
Your well behaved adults would teach their puppy loads of good mannerisim just being there and doing the right thing and you could chat with the owners while you walk :).
Then you could mention about castration and his obvious faulty mouth and how castrating him little later might be of benefit as he really should not be used in stud.
Maybe the lady in the house who is home all day is scared of walking him on her own because of his behaviour but is too embrassed to say this to you, the dogs breeder?
All she might need is support from you to show her he can be controlled...
I'm amazed to see people with pretty small dogs unable to hold them due to the way they do it, if you know what you are doing most dogs can be controlled with no aid used(like halti etc) or maybe they do need something but are unaware what is on offer?

Some people just do not seem to know all these basic things like excercise (I'm amazed how clueless some people can be!) and will need guidance from the breeder even in very basic issues, luckily you are near by so can really help!
How did this puppy get to 11 months old and only now you are voicing your concerns?
Have you not seen the puppy in last 9 or so months they have had him?

A lot of people dream about using their dog for stud but if they get kind guidance they might realize it is not the bestest of ideas, unless you have accidently sold to people who ONLY see money!

At 11 months this puppy might be going through a fear period and is spooked easily and being with you (strange person to him) might had made him feel even more insecure.
I would point out to the owners they really need to act now and get the puppy socialised well, even if at the moment it seems and easier option to just leave him be.

To be honest, if this was my puppy I would be rather upset if you came to me the way you are planning to, you want these people to work with you and want them to listen to you, you do not want them upset and possibly not wanting to keep in touch with you!
It is lot easier to advise a "friend" than an "enemy"!
Then if they decide they do not want him anymore, they are more likely to come to you for help too.

Any news Louise?

She was going to pick him up tonight but her youngest daughter is ill and her husbands at work so they are coming for him tomorrow dinnertime. My dogs are very unsettled as we have had strange dogs in the house and they are being naughty and wont lie down, as he was suppose to be going sunday, but nevermind. Plus with the hot weather and my bitch is just coming out of season im having to keep them seperate or they pester her. Dont want any son to mum accidents. His back end seems to be gaining more muscle tone allready with the walks he has been having, going to take him again once the sun goes down along the canal. Trotting with the rest of the pack is doing him good.

I will let you all know of the outcome, im not a very confrontational type and this is extremely hard for me to pluck up the courage to say to them. It needs saying and the benefit of the dog is most important i just want to put my point across well enough but not to offend so i dont see them again, but as i said i will visit him. Just need to pass that driving test.

Louise

Ahh all this changing of plans of when they pick him up must be terrible for you.  I know when I have got myself all geared up to say something I want it said and the longer it gets put off the least likely I am to say it.  But you have your pups best interests so good luck.

I feel she is taking the P abit too, as i have had to take a week off from work to look after him and im doing it for free. So ive lost money from not working and its been very stressful, as he has minimum training and he will not stop pestering, his mum. Which is driving both her and me mad, but she will not tell him off grrr. If i look after him again i want payment for my hard work, as i have got one of the hardest things with the breed sorted, HE HAS STOPPED PULLING ON THE LEAD yay!!! he finally understood not to pull after an hour and a half and in darkness he gave over pulling so hes quite clever. It will still take time and effort to make sure he doesnt resort to trying to drag me down the street, but all this will be said in my speach, and i think his temp and health are more important on my list than him being used as a stud, i know tht is important to but ill stress the others more. Id rather have no stud and a happy healthy pet.

Louise

Good luck with your driving test!
I too learned to drive 6 months ago just so that I can drive through Europe to get my puppy J and then take her to shows/training when she is here.
It is great to have the freedom to get around and you will really realize how "stuck" in one place you have been without the car!
Saying that I do not use the car much at the moment as I really do not need it with my everyday life.
But it is great to know I can get from A to B if I need to.
People with cars do not always realize there are so many places you can't get to without one so I sympathise!

I find it a little bit weird they are not rushing back to get him home and see him!
Maybe you are right and they are not very attached to him...

Hope they at least bring you some flowers and chocolate for your efforts!
When my dog's breeder used to take her in if we went on holiday she would not take a payment from us.
So we used to get her a bottle of bubbly, flowers and sneak a note in with them and hope she does not notice until we are gone.
Worked for a little while but then she got clever and checked straight away and sneaked it back to our bags/pockets :)

If i was in regular contact with them and they spoke to me regularly, as i would love to see him. and i wouldnt expect payment. But when they dont ring me unless they want something, i did used to ring them quite often to try and see if i could have him for the day when we take these lot out somewhere, i have lots of local places to walk few commons along the canal lakes etc where i can just hope on a bus or its just a walk away. They always said another time etc or maybe next week so i stopped asking. As they said they would get him sunday and its now wednesday its got me thinking hmmm? I guess not everyones the same in loving there dogs, i worry like mad if i have to go to work and they are left alone for a while.

As to my driving test i failed at easter i was just too nervous, stalled loads and it was just horrible, going to have a lesson everyweek to get back into the swing of things and i should be ok, my manouvers? were perfect just everything else terrible lol.

Louise

and he will not stop pestering, his mum. Which is driving both her and me mad, but she will not tell him off grrr

Well, if she's been in season while he's been with you, I'm not surprised - poor lad.... Maybe it would have been best if you had not offered to have him and he had gone into kennels.

TBH i never offered she asked if i could, and she wasnt due in season either she came in on the tuesday the week before, he was due to arrive. too short notice to find space in a kennel in the peak season. I have 2 other intact males in the house also and they are ok, he will just not leave her alone. She should be here within the hour, has called to say so. Should i suggest to her to get him done? To stress that i am serious about the non-studding thing.

Louise

Personally, I think it's important that you make it clear his faults rule him out for stud work - but that's just me.
I hope the owner takes notice, because if not, then I would be concerned at the sort of home you've approved for you pup.  To me, it wouldn't matter how much experience of other breeds they had, and that they had bred staffies before, they are new to this breed, and buying a puppy with the intention of using it for stud later, smacks of back yard breeder.

out of interest and for future ref, would someone mentioning breeding be a fault for you in giving them a pup- when i get another dog i intend to get into showing and depending on how they did in the ring, health temp etc i would consider haivng them as a foundation dog/bitch. so if i said to a breeder "how did her mum get on with whelping? i'm asking as if in the future shes done well in the ring and passes all her health tests etc and it seems appropriate i might consider breeding"- would that be a good or bad thing in your eyes? i'd obviously be making sure everything was in line with endorsements etc

Imo i would rather be asked now before you have even decided to buy a pup, than further down the line after saying to my question would you be interested in breeding, that you wouldnt be and hey presto ''i was wondering if you would lift endorsements''. As all pups would be endorsed anyway, and under the condition that tests are passed clear. Then i wouldnt consider it against you in buying a pup. On the otherhand as you phrased it so well and your thoughts are clearly above board and for the right reasons. If someone said '' im after a bitch to breed from'' then i think it would be a no. But ive noticed that i put alot of people off when i said my bitches were endorsed and the basically put the phone down when i said it.

> when i said my bitches were endorsed and the basically put the phone down when i said it.

nature of the breeds popularity at the mo :( i figure if your honest with a breeder from the start you both get what your after out of the relationship

and i kind of ment in the initial discussions as it would probably come up at the same time as "i'm looking for a lovely, quality dog to show..."

i figure if your honest with a breeder from the start you both get what your after out of the relationship

Definately, there is no point in lying. Breeders will have seen it all before and be able to smell a lie from a mile off. They will just get im sorry i just dont think your suitable for one of my puppies goodbye

I don't know what breeders say but as a buyer, out of my three dogs I have bought two with intention of possibly breeding if they had turned out to be good enough. With both I have told the breeder this is what I would like to do and have never had anything else than support.

Both times I have had the first pick of the litter (first time the breeder picked for me, second time I was confident enough to pick myself and only then asked if the breeder thinks I have picked wisely :)? )
I don't really understand why would it be seen as "fault" if the breeder has got to know you well enough.
They will then know why you wish to do it and know you have morals of not breeding if the dog is not good enough for some reason!
In the end, surely they have bred the litter in order to get something they can breed from in the future so why should they be unhappy somebody else feels the litter is where they would like to start their own line.

I also think it is very important to pick a breeder with lot of knowledge if you are intending to possibly breed on from their stock.
You will have a better change to get a nice puppy and will have the support of somebody who knows what they are doing... Having a complete new starter as a breeder of your dog will not be much use in helping you out, advising you and most importantly for you to be successful you need them to teach you and share their knowledge.
My current pup comes from a breeders first litter BUT pups both parents come from breeders who have been breeding their lines for +20 years each(both very successfully in their own countries) and my pups breeder herself has had the breed for nearly 20 years too before breeding her own litter.
I would call this a pretty solid background and I know I am learning a thing or two from not only my pups breeder but my pups parents breeders too!

Saying that I have had the intentions to breed and have always been honest about it, I have now been in to my breed for over 15 years and have yet to have that litter!
You can always dream and hope that one day you have what you want to have as your foundation bitch :)...

Louise, did they pick him up??
How did it go??
Lea :)