I see beagles have been mentioned on here!

I am no trainer or expert but I do have a 9 month old beagle bitch. She has been hard work and is a stubborn little mule sometimes but she gets on fantastically with other dogs, is relaxed and chilled out in the house but always ready to get up and go for a walk - and will be doing agility when she is old enough. Training is not as difficult as I have read it can be, providing you have something worth working for (food!)

I have had her off-lead since she started going for walks, and I have not had a problem so far with recall (although I realise there is plenty of time yet!)

She is my first Beagle and I would have another in a heartbeat

I wouldn't rule out a golden retriever. We are new to the breed and have a two year old bitch, she is a delight to own and has been so easy to train, as she always tries so hard to please. With regard to your son being able to manage one, I have limited mobility and she is quite happy to stroll along with me at whatever pace I can manage, with no pulling on the lead. This isn't something she has had to be taught, she simply adjusts her pace to whichever one of us is walking her. As placid and gentle as she is, she is always ready for a game and loves nothing more than a rough and tumble, or game of football with my son. Even though she hasn't been brought up with young children, she adores them and if our walk co-incides with the primary school children coming home, we don't get very far as she has to say hello to them all. As much as I love our previous breed, German Shepherds, I can honestly say that she is the easiest dog we have ever owned. If you are looking for a calm, biddable dog, with a desire to please and wicked sense of humour, then I would say look no further.

If you are worried about the strength of a Goldie, and this applies to any dog really, he could always walk the dog on a headcollar. My youngest walks very well on the lead and has never really pulled, she is soooo eager to please and has a great personality. I do find the girls easier than the boys, although I love the boys characters.

<and my son does like the look of them.>
How can you NOT like the look of a Goldie!?!

How about a Sussex Spaniel? They are real characters and my Winnie loves agility. She isn't particularly fast, and they can be stubborn little so and so's, but for someone starting out in agility would be a good option to learn with, giving you time to think about what you are doing rather than having a blur of a collie. Even some of the ESS doing it are somewhat manic. Also on the showing front, with there not being many about, the classes will be smaller and less intimidating for a self-conscious teenage boy.

I think  Staffordshire bull terrier would a great breed for your son. They would grow together and when your son is 17 his dog will only be 5.. They are very loving and sweet. Always want to please and with an easy coat to keep clean. As you have large breeds you will not worry so much about the young pup fitting in with your gang as very hardy dogs that can handle rough and tumble if need be. They are on the small to medium size- bitches being the easier to train and smaller all round fantastic dog for a young lad?  

Unfortunately they are also very stealable & appeal to the less than savoury characters in the street

Hi, have you thought about the Swedish Vallhund? Easy to groom , free standing in the ring and good at agility. They get on well with bigger breeds, I've got an Elkhound with mine and other owners have Rotts and GSD's. I've got a 13 year old son who has no problem walking mine in public as most people don't know what they are!

Was thinking, a bit about this thread.  

What about a Miniature Pinscher?  They are small, but they dont think they are.  They have lots of spunk, easy to train, low grooming, very flashy dogs. 

They are ok, with older children if socialized properly.  They are great at show, obedience, agility, and being a lap dog.  (what else could you ask for?  lol) .  I wouldnt suggest them with young young kids, as they dont like to be poked and prodded, but older kids they seem just fine. 

They thrive on their humans, and are protective of them.  You need to be very careful when selecting min pins though, as some of the breeders dont breed for temperment.  Well they do, but in the wrong way. 

They are a relatively healthy breed, their main problems are: Thyroid, Knees.   Although, there are a lot of reports of Min Pins, being reactors to the Lepto vaccine.  Not sure if in the UK you need to vaccinate for Lepto.  Both my bitches are reactors, but a bit of Childrens Benydrill before their jabs, and they are fine. 

They are a breed though, that you have to be constantly thinking ahead of.  They will get into things, if not trained properly.  They are "puppies till the day they die."  I mean, they do get a brain in them, but they are a more active breed. 

Dont buy them from someone who calls them Miniature Dobermans.  If the "breeder" says they are just like a small doberman, run!  The only thing they share is the look.  Most breeders, if you call them a Mini Dobe, they will spend time to explain how they ARE NOT one. 

The miniature pinscher is a great dog, no wonder they are dubbed "The King Of Toys"

I am sure that goes for any pedigree puppy- if someone is into stealing dogs normally it is the "designer" breeds that are more of a focus- as now breeding for instance a Pug & Yorkie some sell the off spring for £800 a pop! Now a young lad with a staff... who would take much notice really? The only difference is this dog would be well cared for and trained?

> IMO a medium to small large would be a much better choice particularly as a 12 or 14 year old boy would probably not wish to be seen with a pug.

Glad that this is only in your opinion!  My 12 year old nephew is now the proud owner of 2 pugs, who are being trained and shown by him, his first dogs.  He adores them, and whenever we are out with the pugs he gets nothing but admiring/envious comments from other boys of similar age.  I have sold at least 2 pug pups to families wiht boys of about this age, who are the principal driving forces in choosing the breed.  I don't know if it is the high media profile of hte breed, or the pugs own inate charm and character which appeal to the young male, but even my late teens nephew fell head over heels for one ofthe pug boys last year whilst staying wiht me.

To the OP, yes  they are expensive, but such fun to both own and show.  One of my last litter is going to be an agility pug (hopefully) and my black stud dog would be wonderful (if I was more agile myself :) ).  The dogs especially seem to be ideal companions for boys of this age, Pipsqueak and Max are absolutley best buddies, although he is very attached to his bitch pup too. 

Even yesterday my 13 yo son said he will have a pug one day :)
Lea :)

According to Dog Theft groups this is not the case in some areas, especially were there is an active dog fighting underground.

Moonmaiden, I'm with you. Staffs as status dogs are very desirable to thieves or a thug who wants one.

Crespin, I thought about a Min Pin too. I was at Bath dog show and there was a young lad showing one in the group. Very impressive and a lovely dog.

I guess I was concerned about one being a handful for a less than totally committed owner. Don't get me wrong, I love them, as I do German Pinschers, Manchesters and ETT's, but they require careful handling to get the best out of them, lots and lots of socialisation when young and so on. ETT's are much easier but the rest can be little firecrackers one minute and soft as toffee the next,, and I've never known one in a pack that wasn't boss in the end, including over Rotties. I do believe a Min Pin gave young Cesar a run for his money! 

Still if for those who want a really big dog in a small body then these are the breeds to go for.

By the way, how many times a week are you asked about your baby Dobermanns? LOL!

thank you for all you comments and suggestions.

we have been to the east of england show ground today and my son has done nothing but go on about the pug he says its the breed for him i also love them and even if he lost interest then my 5 yr old how is dog mad and is very bonded with one of my bullmastiffs and sleeps with her all night could always work with it next year.

the other dogs that he likes are the min pin and pinscher  would love to hear from owners of these breeds for suitability.

as i am new to showing and only been to open shows could you tell me if these breeds would be on the same day at chap show we may never get that far but you never know with the right dog and enough work we may be confident enough.

could you tell me the difference re nature personality and freindlyness between

English toy terrier
min pin
german pinscher
manchester terrier

i was looking to try and work out the difference between them but could not find much out. as my son had shown interest in these before the show today along with the pug.

he must take after me my love for bullmastiff rotties and dobes. or may be that just what he has grown to love never knowing anything else.

Hi again.  I have a soft spot for pugs too, I'm another that wants one in the future :-). Pugs are in the toy group as are min pins so unlikely to be on the same day at champ shows I think.  Pinschers are in the working group so same group as bullmastiffs. edit sorry cant help on the temps of the breeds though.

Hi, I hope Crespin will add to this as she knows lots about Min Pins. I think German Pinschers might be too much for your lad, they can be very aloof and have a strong guard instinct. I would say they are a dominant breed best handled by an experienced dog owner.

ETT's are smashing little terriers, fairly easy to train and handle but may not be robust enough for your pack. Very much depends on the line.

Now, Manchesters and Min Pins. Manchesters are bigger and with a tail- they stand 15/17 inches at the shoulder and in this country they have dropped ears- in the states they still crop. Highly athletic and intelligent they are coming to the fore in agility and flyball. They can run nearly as fast as a whippet and are one of our oldest English terrier breeds. They were bred exclusively for ratting in factories etc.. and were the official rat catchers dog. Without proper socialisation they can be aloof, stubborn and with a very strong guard instinct. But if well bred for temperament and well socialised with people, other dogs and children you will not find a better breed. Your son will feel proud because people will ask him if they can stroke his baby Dobermann. Most young men think they look incredibly cool.

I would say ditto for all of this for the Min Pin, except Manchesters are that much bigger and as one of our native vulnerable breeds I would like to "big them up"

I think a lot depends on how much time you and your son are willing to put in. These are special dogs, a weird mix of dominant but aloof, feisty but hyper sensitive- remember they are a ratting dog, bred to hunt alone and kill. They are highly reactive with that 360 degree awareness, rather like a cat, so you have to train around that. They can be quick tempered and sharp, so picking the right breeding for temperament is a must. In many ways like a Dobermann but more wilful, oh and very manipulative, great sense of humour and mischief They also love their people and generally pick a favourite human who they will cuddle to death, they will try to dominate a dog pack and often succeed. So, I say again, if you are committed and get the right breeding they are fabulous dogs.

Sounds like your son is stuck on a Pug. Also fab dogs but very different ball game.

Boxer - my mum bought one for me when I was 14, simply the greatest dog ever.

benson - With any of these breeds, apart from maybe the german pinscher, I would be a little worried about the size differences with your bullie. Unless, of course, you are planning to keep them separate or constantly supervised (as Marianne does)? The difference in size and weight between a bullie and min pin is enormous, and no matter how careful you are, and how gentle the bullie may be, accidents can and do happen. IMO a medium/large breed would be better. My breeds are Goldies, Dobes and Sussex Spaniels. The Sussex is a solid little dog who thinks she's bigger than she is and the Goldies and Dobes are the same sort of size/weight. I'm sure others with big/small dogs are better qualified to comment.

I would have to say a Golden would be my choice, but they are my breed anyway.

Any dog will be a handful with proper training, and a Golden is easy to train (mostly!) and a pleasure to own. My 12 year old son regularly walks my 3 year old girl, and handles her easily. She is well trained in any situation though, but she is not overly strong and although he is slight, I am firm in the belief that he could handle her if a problem arose. They are a breed that love children, and are excellent companions for them.  All of mine's tails start wagging as soon as they hear the children in the morning, and often in the evening my eldest son will be laying on the living room floor surrounded by all three Goldens.

Do be warned though, they are addictive! :-) Ever see many people with only one Golden? LOL

My lad started with an Aussie pup when he was 12, and he did really well. But from doing extreemely well and being all fired up he suddenly went into football when he hit 15 and has no interest in dogs anymoe. I like the dog shows because I meet lots of people and find it easy to make friends but for a lad they can be very out of place.

With having a boy you should get a dog you are really very  interested in because showing and obedience and even agiliity  is mostly older people or in the YKC is mostly girls.

I'd be more inclined to take a look at working trials or gun dog training for a lad if you hope he will still be interested as he matures.

I would imagine that any dog of around under kg adult weight would be fine for a 12 year old boy to handle.

My daughter wasn't allowed to handle one of ours from scratch from a pup until she was 10 years old (20kg adult weight for bitches) and was handling sensible adults from 8 years old.

Toller - couldn't find any info and don't know what they look like so cant comment.

Lancashire Heeler - cant find much info so not sure on that one ?

Sheltie - only shelties i have met which is not to many have been a bit snappy? more infor appreciated.

Beagle - have read a lot about these very cute lovely nature but not to good off lead when on a sent?

Aussie - i love them need more info have read about them but would like to hear from owners regarding sutibility with young kids (4/5 yr old brothers)

Border collie - had them years ago was my first dog when i left home can be very good need lots of exercisers and stimulation or are destructive so he would have to work hard with it and be very committed (not a bad thing) ?

Boxer - love them but how strong would it be on a lead ? (12 yr old not very big ATM)

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/435

Info on the breeds at above link. Toller (nova scotia duck tolling retriever) is in gundog group. Lancs Heeler is pastoral. It gives rough idea on size,level of exercise\ grooming etc. But if you want to find out in more depth you will need to have a google for the appropriate breed club.

Experience I have had of shelties I've met - badly bred ones have been snappy, well bred ones haven't. Mary Ray has 2 I think, that she does HTM & agility with.

> could you tell me if these breeds would be on the same day at chap show

Normally working and pastoral are always together - think there have been a couple of champ shows now where they have changed it - but traditionally that is what you get.

http://www.highampress.co.uk/dates.asp

If you click on the highlighted ones (that they do results for) it will tell you which groups are on which days, so you can get an idea.

you didnt say what breed you were in as i suppose you would have to get the same thing eg working day terrior day etc so he could be with you when you show.

Hi benson67

i'm a bit late in posting but i would suggest a cavalier, as another poster has suggested. i have a cav who is extremely friendly with other dogs and lives with no problems with 2 large breeds. she adores children and has been very easy to train, she loves learning new things and always wants to please.

my OH is a 19 stone rugby player and he doesn't mind walking her (unless I make him take her pink lead, lol) and he doesn't find her too "girly". gypsy's "boyfriend", a cavalier called jack who often comes walking with us, is co-owned by a 16 year old boy as well and they adore each other.
cavaliers don't need too much grooming and ours is happy with whatever exercise we give her, although she does love her walks.

Springers or Tollers would be quite good though even our cockers and Cavs have quite a strong pull on them if you were worried about the strength for a boy to handle (yes, I know I must be very weedy!). Did I gather you have Rotties? Might be best to check out the working and pastoral groups as someone else suggested it could be awkward at Champ shows. Shelties are nice little dogs, intelligent and trainable, not too much poofy trimming either, I seriously considered those before ending up with spaniels. :-)

Aha, just seen your later post - yes Manchester or Min Pins might be good - fun for 'Irish Brace' at companion shows with the Dobies too! :-D

Do be warned though, they are addictive!  Ever see many people with only one Golden? LOL

Had to laugh at this. When I bought my girl two years ago the breeder told me this and I thought ah they all say that. Now we are planning goldie number two!!

Japanese Shiba Inu are lovely small to medium dogs, easy coat care as well.  Not sure if they would be good for agility as some asian breeds can be a little stubborn but they can also be aloof with strangers so wouldn't want to walk away with some random thug.  In general a very smart looking little dog.

mmmmm....not good for agility unless you have a HUGE sense of humour.Also no good off lead EVER!!!!

Crespin, I thought about a Min Pin too. I was at Bath dog show and there was a young lad showing one in the group. Very impressive and a lovely dog.

Still if for those who want a really big dog in a small body then these are the breeds to go for.

By the way, how many times a week are you asked about your baby Dobermanns? LOL!

Min pins can be funny.  I have one, who is happy to be a couch potato!  If there is a blanket, she is there.  The other one, she isnt so much of a couch potato, and always wanting to be on the move.  Min Pins, although sometimes harder to handle as their minds work really quick, the one advantage, is their size.  They are small, so if something goes wrong (like your min pin sees a cat under the car) its easier to hold them back on leash.  Off leash, well thats another story!  Many pin breeders would think you are nuts if you want to take a min pin off leash! 

Since I have red ones, I get asked less often than the people with a black and tan.  But I still get asked.  I would say once or twice a week!!!!!!  I also get told I shouldnt have a doberman in the city.....ok I wont then!!!! 

And yes, min pins are usually boss.  They got the dobes trained!  The main problem, is when you let the little things slide, like a growl here, or a puppy bite there.  A lot of people think that since they are small, they cant hurt you if they bite.  Put my money on it, that they have never been bitten by a min pin!  They think these little "games" are cute!  So yes, if you let those behaviours slide, then you will have a not so friendly dog.  But if you nip it in the bum (not litterally lol) and with the proper training and socialization, a min pin can be a great little dog.

English toy terrier
min pin
german pinscher
manchester terrier

Now, I dont know much about a breed called the English Toy Terrier, is that like a Rat terrier?  Or am I thinking something else?  In Canada, we call some breeds by different names, so sometimes it gets confusing lol.

They are all ratters, (MP, GP, and MT).  The GP and the min pin share lines.  The German was almost extinct, and they added the min pin, around the 1950s or so to bring the breed back.  Apparently, from what I have read, the GP and the MP are quite similar.  Min Pins standing 10-12.5 inches at the shoulders, german pinschers slighty taller at 17 - 22 (depending on country standards).  The min pin will have a natural erect ear.  Whether it is cropped or not, the ear stands erect (well if ears are bred for).  The German Pinscher, has flat, close to the head ears.  More like the Doberman.  Min Pins come in 4 allowed colours: Red, Black and Rust, Chocolate and Stag Red.  German Pinschers, I believe are only acceptable in two colours: B&T and red. 

Manchesters come in two sizes.  The toy, which is under 13 inches.  These dogs are shown natural, and they have a tail and high erect ears.  The standard Manchester has flat ears.  In Canada, it is just the Standard Man that is cropped.  The toy isnt (someone mentioned it.....forget which poster though)

Someone also mentioned size difference between the bully and the pin being an issue.  Yes, that can be tough.  I know people though, that have danes and min pins.  And Dobes and Min pins (kinda goes hand in hand here, if you breed Dobes, you are more likely to also breed min pins as a secondary breed).  Min Pins, with them wanting to be boss do not work well with another dominant dog.  My two bitches here, are still working the pecking order out.  But Joy (an ESS) was great with the pins.  But, a spaniel tends to be more submissive than a pin. 

Anyways, hope that helped a bit.

Thank for the info on the mp gp ett

my dogs although large are very laid back and spend a lot of their time lazing around they can be very playful two of them are more playful than the others and not forgetting my pup that i kept from my litter is only 12 wks on Wednesday, my largest dog who is the male is big playful but very gentle he has been kept with jack russels before he came to me so is used to small dogs and never had a problem with them he also plays lots with the pup and when he is playing he is always laying on the floor with the pup on top of him large dogs do seem to know how hard to play and adjust to the strengths of each dog.

my dad has just been taken very ill and my mum has come to stay with us they also have a flatcoat and she has also come to stay, my dogs have taken her in very well even my girl that has had issues with other dogs is dealing with this new comer very well i think living in a large pack situation that they learn very good manners there are many dogs that live on their own that would not have just excepted a new adult dog strait in and i would like to think that my dogs could accommodate any breed with respect and live in harmony the one thing that they would struggle to live with is a very nutty active dog that does not rest at all ie collie.

Hi Crespin,

FYI an ETT is what they call a Toy Machester in the States. In the UK it's a separate breed. They are generally meeker than the Manchester, most likely due to a dose of Italian Greyhound mixed in way back. Unlike the UK Manchester the ETT's have erect, flame ears.

I would say that the ETT tends to be finer than the US Toy. The US Toy may be closer to a Min Pin in temperament.

You mention Rat Terriers: they are nice little dogs and again a bit less fiery because of doses of beagle in the mix. They too have Manchesters behind them.

Benson67, I would really advise you to meet a few of these breeds and handle them and so on. I love these dogs, but they do need a lot of work up front to get the best out of them. When they're good they're very, very good, but when they're bad they really are horrid. I'd also advise on getting a bitch for your son. A dog might be tougher work in the pack - unless castrated. You must also see both parents to be sure of temperament.  If you could make Discover Dogs in November that would be good.

If hes training the dog & ye're experienced owners should size really be an issue? Surely a well trained bullmastiff is as easily handled as any other breed, my DdB could quite easily be handled by a 12 year old.

If hes training the dog & ye're experienced owners should size really be an issue?

Sometimes yes.  If he is the one training a dog, and he has little experience, then a larger dog means safety concerns.  A large dog, is 40 lbs by the time they are 2-3 months old (depending on breed).  A toy dog, like the min pin  is only 3 lbs at that age.  The bigger one is more likely to bolt and drag a kid onto the street, then a smaller dog trying to bolt. 

But once the dog is trained, no matter the size of the dog, a child should be able to handle it.  But its getting it trained in the first place.  My uncle sometimes gets knocked on his bottom with a 60 lb Dobe puppy.  And hes 40ish years old, and weighs almost 200 lbs.  (and yet I have never been knocked down, dragged, pulled, etc by this very same puppy....boy it gets them frustrated sometimes!)

FYI an ETT is what they call a Toy Machester in the States. In the UK it's a separate breed. They are generally meeker than the Manchester, most likely due to a dose of Italian Greyhound mixed in way back. Unlike the UK Manchester the ETT's have erect, flame ears

Thanks so much (adds that to the paper ever so growing on what names breeds are called in the UK compaired to Canada)